Cross-posted LForum: If Leica's MF System kills "R", do you keep DMR-R8/R9

[Nitnaros]

(Same post as on L*Camera Forum

Most of us have heard that Leica will introduce a Medium Format SLR system at Photokina.

If at the same time the "R" product line is discontinued (yes, an ugly word, but things like that happen, see DMR), what will you do with your R equipment:

- If you have a R8/R9-DMR combo, will you keep shooting that combo or switching in the nearer future to a different digital system and selling off your R stuff ? (Since there will be no new R lenses in the future; and the DMR is already discontinued)

- If you have been waiting for a R10 to use with your existing R lenses, will you sell off your R8, R9 and the lenses?

Just curious what others think.

The rumors I heard is that the R line will indeed by discontinued; but we all know more soon...

Peter
__________________
Peter Sorantin
New Jersey

M7, M8
24-Elmarit asph, 28-Cron asph, 35-Lux asph, 50-lux asph, 75-Lux

 

[robmac]

Re: Cross-posted LForum: If Leica's MF System kills "R", do you keep DMR-R8/R9

There is chatter of a Sep 14 announcement, but there is also rumors of bigfoot, so who knows.

Prior to the days of the D3/D700 when Canon dominated the FF/low-noise landscape I would have said that many folks who would par down would keep some lenses for use via adapters on EOS. That said, with an increasing number of folks moving to Nikon, things get a little dicier.

 

[doug]

Re: Cross-posted LForum: If Leica's MF System kills "R", do you keep DMR-R8/R9

I'm not going to make any buy/sell decisions based on internet rumors.

 

[robmac]

Re: Cross-posted LForum: If Leica's MF System kills "R", do you keep DMR-R8/R9

I'm not going to make any buy/sell decisions based on internet rumors.

Wiser words were never spoken.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Re: Cross-posted LForum: If Leica's MF System kills "R", do you keep DMR-R8/R9

I agree but if the R is dead than Leica will have a lot of swimming to do . They would have just burned a big user base of leica fans and many are my friends and i don't like to see my friends get burned.

 

[Jack]

Re: Cross-posted LForum: If Leica's MF System kills "R", do you keep DMR-R8/R9

IMO, the R is dead unless Leica commits itself to creating a new breed of AF lenses and body to support them. From the body perspective, they would be years behind N or C... And let's not forget that Leica is first and foremost an optical company, not a camera company. Next, building a new lens line requires a pretty heavy investment in start costs, so from that perspective if I am Leica and I have decided to build new lenses, I would be inclined to build a line of lenses that I could sell for maximum return on my investment to existing users. Sound familiar? (Think Zeiss.)

To my mind, I could see it making more sense to market the best lenses to the MF digital market (they're already used to paying big $$$ per item), and PROBABLY offer them in multiple compatibility mounts... I don't have the stats, but I suspect that the total R user market is pretty small, and hence the pre-existing MF market may look appealing...

What if Leica brought out only three lenses for MF ---- a 40, 70 and 105 tilt-shift line for MF... I *GUARANTEE* they would sell like hotcakes, and right now...

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Re: Cross-posted LForum: If Leica's MF System kills "R", do you keep DMR-R8/R9

I agree there best action would be MF if they are killing the R BUT they need to compete better and make someone like me switch or get new buyers to move up above the 35mm level. They can actually tap several types of buyers which is a good thing.

 

[robmac]

Re: Cross-posted LForum: If Leica's MF System kills "R", do you keep DMR-R8/R9

Agree - Leica's best ROI is to get their optical designs onto as many mounts as circumstances will allow. It is their greatest asset and the ROI, given that the bulk of the initial design work is already a sunk cost for existing lenses, would be huge.

Trying to be a mini-version of N or C or Hassy, etc and using the quality glass as a draw is just asking for trouble - and under-exploiting the strengths of the glass. A far, far greater number of people would buy a Leica lens for their existing body than would risk (or view it as worthwhile) to buy a Leica body to use said glass on.

With the interest in more premium glass (new Nikon offerings in the pipe aside) on the FX format, F-mount 'R' glass would sell like hot cakes - assuming manufacturing were out-sourced under Leica QC to get volumes up and costs down. Forget giving me that Leica 'feel' on the mechanics - give me the Leica IQ and average mechanics for Zeiss-level prices. The same goes for the EOS camp.

On the MF side, as you say....

 

[Uaiomex]

Re: Cross-posted LForum: If Leica's MF System kills "R", do you keep DMR-R8/R9

I suggested in this thread: http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=29007159 (hard to believe, really). If leica has problems surviving in the digital era, joining Canon for a new but not much bigger format makes sense. Canon is already scratching the ceiling of their lens line, but sensor tech at Canon may be just waiting for the right lenses or right format. What do you think?
Eduardo

Ps: Here is my post in that thread:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=29009040

 

[woodyspedden]

Re: Cross-posted LForum: If Leica's MF System kills "R", do you keep DMR-R8/R9

For my .02 worth I agree totally with Jack.

When you look at the number of lenses Zeiss has sold based on providing the most popular mounts, and that they haven't had to invest at all in the camera end of the market, seems to me a most inviting outlook.

You could imagine Leica glass on Nikon, Canon,, Pentax, and Olympus. None of these guys could provide lenses that were close to the quality of the R glass. And the R&D costs are close to zero! All it takes is the mounts and the procedures for testing the lenses to assure the performance. Can you just imagine the D3 or D700 equipped with a 15 Elmarit or a 35-70 Elmarit? Or even if you don't go the exotic route how about a 28 Elmarit or an 80 Lux? Just too good to be true in my opinion. And screw the need for AF. Zeiss is producing no AF glass and look at their sales. Anyway, I think this is one of the routes Leica should be seriously considering. They need to stay out of the camera business for now and concentrate on getting their still state of the art optics into the hands of many many more of todays photographers. Once the brand is re-established as the best, then the route to new cameras, MFDB whatever is open to them. As alway, JMHO and YMMV

Woody Spedden

 

[Uaiomex]

Re: Cross-posted LForum: If Leica's MF System kills "R", do you keep DMR-R8/R9

On the other hand, as someone said that implementing AF in Leica R glass would take to change the formulas, if so, Canon could come with a new body with AF in sensor. Maybe, moving the R assembly line to Japan or so, would help to lower the insane prices, especially after production and sales get boosted tenfold.
Ed

 

[EH21]

Re: Cross-posted LForum: If Leica's MF System kills "R", do you keep DMR-R8/R9

Crazy how many rumors have been started WRT Leica. We do know that Leica entered an agreement with Sinar in January of this year - press release is available on Photoscala.de We also know that Herr Kaufmann has hinted strongly about R10 and other items, which I would believe to be a lower priced rangefinder. I doubt there will be any relationship with Canon, however if Zeiss is making lenses for Nikon maybe Canon would like a similar partnership?

In any case to answer the OP's question - will I keep my DMR? I dunno have been wondering about that for months now. I shot it today - nice camera to be sure. In truth I had planned to sell mine since going MF but its hard to let go of. If I have missed the mark now and price plummets I'll certainly have to keep it.

 

[gero]

Re: Cross-posted LForum: If Leica's MF System kills "R", do you keep DMR-R8/R9

http://www.storyofstuff.com/

 

[LJL]

Re: Cross-posted LForum: If Leica's MF System kills "R", do you keep DMR-R8/R9

http://www.storyofstuff.com/

Actually a good perspective check for all of us on many fronts. The only part of the equation that gets left out is just how do folks and economies sustain themselves? This is the harder problem to solve.

LJ

 

[gero]

Re: Cross-posted LForum: If Leica's MF System kills "R", do you keep DMR-R8/R9

In the end she gives a direction, but the main part is to turn your head from a consumer to a humanbeing, from a nationalist to a "global citicen"?.

 

[LJL]

Re: Cross-posted LForum: If Leica's MF System kills "R", do you keep DMR-R8/R9

In the end she gives a direction, but the main part is to turn your head from a consumer to a humanbeing, from a nationalist to a "global citicen"?.

Gero,
Not disagreeing, just find her approach to be a bit too simplistic for a very complex problem. What is good is the encouragement to use things longer, rather than constant cycle of upgrade. This was the earlier promise for both the DMR and later the M8, but both concepts have turned to vapor at this point. Same is true for computers.....being able to swap out CPUs and stuff is just not happening, though promised long ago. There are too many other system dependent things that preclude practical operations. Things could be designed differently, but there seems to be little pressure from buyers (consumers), and that is the one point she makes where we can start to impact things.

My only other contention about her suggestions away from consumerism, is that she completely misses many of the really valuable things that have come from a consumer-oriented global/social approach. Most of the incredible tech we have would never have come about without a steady drive for advancement, and that can only happen with product turnover.

Really not the place to discuss in this thread, but the connection to simply being able to continue using very good existing lenses, bodies, etc., and simply upgrading a few critical parts like sensors and support electronics in things like cameras has been talked about a lot, but not coming to pass. Leica coming out with a MF "DMR-R8/R9 killer" does not render the DMR incapable of still capturing great images for some time to come. At some point, things will fail or needs will change, and then it will become a paperweight for owners, but if it still delivers images folks like now, no need to dump it. Just my thoughts.

LJ

 

[gero]

Re: Cross-posted LForum: If Leica's MF System kills "R", do you keep DMR-R8/R9

Gero,
This was the earlier promise for both the DMR and later the M8, but both concepts have turned to vapor at this point.

to simply being able to continue using very good existing lenses, bodies, etc., and simply upgrading a few critical parts like sensors and support electronics
LJ

I don't think it has turned to vapor at all. Lenses from the second world war can and are being discovered and used ever more and I think this is the real way to go for leica or as a user.

 

[LJL]

Re: Cross-posted LForum: If Leica's MF System kills "R", do you keep DMR-R8/R9

I don't think it has turned to vapor at all. Lenses from the second world war can and are being discovered and used ever more and I think this is the real way to go for leica or as a user.

Gero,
My point of reference was with respect to replacing the sensors and electronics, not so much the lenses. Leica had marketed a replaceable/upgradable sensor for the DMR, but that is now discontinued. They also had started to promise sensor upgrade options for the M8, but that has been buried and not discussed since Kaufmann resumed control of things after Lee's departure.

So, while lenses may still be used from the past, they will not have AF and other electronic connectivity, but that may not matter for some folks and how they shoot. There are also some different demands on glass for use with digital sensors that were not as much an issue with film, but again, that may not matter for some shooters.

Not trying to dissuade the recycle/reuse/prolong concept at all. Just pointing out that while many of the ideas and intentions are good, they just are not materializing in the marketplace. I would love to be able to simply upgrade the sensor on my M8 (at a reasonable cost), if it could deliver what I needed, and that was (may still be) a tantalizing option. The M8 works fine now, and I will keep using it as is for as long as it does what I want or need. That is the same thing I was suggesting about the DMR. It if delivers what one wants, no need to dump it just because a new model MF thing comes along. However, many photographers, especially working pros, have needs that exceed what some of the older gear can deliver, and there has been no effort to provide a way of updating the older stuff to newer capabilities. A few lens can get ROM chips and such, but the electronics stuff has not been upgradeable, and that is now "core" to most cameras.

LJ

 

[gero]

Re: Cross-posted LForum: If Leica's MF System kills "R", do you keep DMR-R8/R9

well I guess we will find out in a month or so how Leica are defining their direction but they are at least consious of it and I an confident that it is the only rout they will take in the long run and that is the rout that I want to take also.

 

[EH21]

Re: Cross-posted LForum: If Leica's MF System kills "R", do you keep DMR-R8/R9

The DMR is still a very nice tool. My guess is there will be a successor, but if not I'll likely continue to use mine. And if there is no immediate replacement, I wonder if the value of the few DMRs made will go up? If Leica doesnt do it somebody should - that R glass is too good.