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Nikon's mirrorless is a gentle wake up call for Leica

bradhusick

Active member
IMHO, Nikon missed the boat completely for serious shooters with their mirrorless announcements. Based on all the comments that have been flooding the interwebs I believe this is an excellent, gentle wake up call for Leica. Here's what I believe Leica should develop for their mirrorless camera:

1. M mount (obvious)
2. APS-C sensor, no smaller (1.5X multiplier max)
3. CMOS with great ISO 3200 performance
4. High quality EVF (1M pixel or more)
5. 960K pixel LCD
6. Keep the body as small as possible

Feel free to add your "must-haves".
 

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
This could be very interesting if you consider the R lens commitment? The M wide angles below 35mm have not worked well on most of the Aps C sensors. So this could be a very difficult design if legacy glass is considered a big part of the design.

If they go in the direction of Sony , how will they differentiate?

I would rather see a camera thats like a small Dslr that would be about the size of the R4-7 bodies..Evf of course. Leica s success recently has been based on avoiding head on competition and developing elegant niche products.

If you look back at Leica s history they have always had superb long glass....i ve used the telyt s forever and now the longest equivlent Fov is 135(180 s). Where is the famous 180 fov? It wasnt that long ago that leica went to schneider and zeiss for the super wides 15-21.

I will also bet that Leica will not rebadge the camera but will want final assembly in wetzler. Using compents from asia.
 

Terry

New member
This could be very interesting if you consider the R lens commitment? The M wide angles below 35mm have not worked well on most of the Aps C sensors. So this could be a very difficult design if legacy glass is considered a big part of the design.

.
The only reason they haven't worked well is because they haven't been designed to work well. Leica already knows how to do this with micro lenses on both a 1.3x crop and no crop both of which are harder than implementing micro lenses in 1.5x. The complication is finding a CMOS producer to do this versus Kodak.
 

baudolino

Active member
These would be my preferred specifications:

(1) M mount (obvious)
(2) full frame sensor (perhaps CMOS)
(3) AF on the chip (moving the chip rather than the lens)
(4) AF should be very fast and coupled with face / nearest eye recognition, like EP-3
(5) ultrasonic sensor cleaning (and no oil droplets on the sensor....)
(6) high quality EVF
(7) 960k pixel 3inch LCD
(8) body no larger than M9
(9) instant wake-up from sleep mode (no need to depress shutter button first)

Perhaps this is more of an M10 spec, but so be it.

The R lenses deserve a full frame solution - any APS-C "solution" is no solution for me (I can use a 5DII via an adapter to get better results than anything Leica can come up with in the APS-C format, albeit with compromises in handling/convenience).
 

Braeside

New member
IMHO, Nikon missed the boat completely for serious shooters with their mirrorless announcements. Based on all the comments that have been flooding the interwebs I believe this is an excellent, gentle wake up call for Leica. Here's what I believe Leica should develop for their mirrorless camera:

1. M mount (obvious)
2. APS-C sensor, no smaller (1.5X multiplier max)
3. CMOS with great ISO 3200 performance
4. High quality EVF (1M pixel or more)
5. 960K pixel LCD
6. Keep the body as small as possible

Feel free to add your "must-haves".
Hi,

With exception of 4. The Ricoh GXR A12 Mount is this. (EVF is only 920K)
I have got one and love it.
 

Amin

Active member
Leica already indicated that the sensor will be at least APS-C in size. Hopefully it will have autofocus, and they will design a range of sub-$1000 lenses for it!
 

Stuart Richardson

Active member
Just curious, but why is the Nikon a wake up call for Leica? I just took a quick look at the specs, but to me it just looks like an even less desirable entry than micro 4/3rds. It is a minuscule-sensored camera that seems more to be aimed more at reinvigorating the point and shoot and micro-sized sensor camera markets than competing with a future Leica mirrorless camera (which I think would be full frame or close to it...especially if the R lenses are going to be part of the design philosophy). Maybe Leica would consider something like this for their D-lux and V-lux lines, but let's hope they are not considering it for something between the M series and the X series...
 

bradhusick

Active member
I consider it a gentle wake up call because so many higher-end shooters have crapped all over the Nikon approach.

I do think there's room for a camera to replace the X1 with an M-mount and a great EVF. I don't need autofocus if the EVF is good enough and it offers focus peaking like the Sony and Ricoh.
 

ashwinrao1

Active member
IMHO, Nikon missed the boat completely for serious shooters with their mirrorless announcements. Based on all the comments that have been flooding the interwebs I believe this is an excellent, gentle wake up call for Leica. Here's what I believe Leica should develop for their mirrorless camera:

1. M mount (obvious)
2. APS-C sensor, no smaller (1.5X multiplier max)
3. CMOS with great ISO 3200 performance
4. High quality EVF (1M pixel or more)
5. 960K pixel LCD
6. Keep the body as small as possible

Feel free to add your "must-haves".
Brad, this seems an aweful lot like the current GXR with M mount, given it's APS-C sized CMOS sensor sans AA filter, relatively high quality 1M pixel EVF), good LCD, small body...now if it just had the RF way of focussing, it'd be perfect, but I really am enjoying the combo with focus assist....
 

bradhusick

Active member
Yes, I owned a GXR for about 24 hours. I couldn't stand the sluggishness but I understand it has gotten better with the newer firmware.

Right now I am having fun with the Sony NEX-5 and Leica M lenses. The focus peaking works great. I have a NEX-7 on pre-order because I am a viewfinder type shooter.

I meant the camera and the photos both.
 

saxshooter

New member
+1 Sony NEX-7

I've got one on pre-order also. I love the focus peaking on the NEX-5. Should work very well with legacy lenses and that built in EVF.
 

Braeside

New member
Yes, I owned a GXR for about 24 hours. I couldn't stand the sluggishness but I understand it has gotten better with the newer firmware.

Right now I am having fun with the Sony NEX-5 and Leica M lenses. The focus peaking works great. I have a NEX-7 on pre-order because I am a viewfinder type shooter.

I meant the camera and the photos both.
Did you try the GXR A12 M Mount though Brad? - I don't find it sluggish and it is really easy to focus quickly with focus assist or enlarge, though even that is not absolutely necessary. The EVF is essential for bright outdoor work I find. Yes, a Sony EVF would be marvellous. :)

[I am only comparing my M8 and the GXR here, but I don't see a difference in the feel of the photos apart from the slightly tighter crop].

I just feel the GXR feels more like a camera than the NEX does to me, but we are all different I appreciate.

I shall of course be following the NEX -7 closely.
 

bradhusick

Active member
When I tried the GXR the M mount was not even on the radar screen, so I look forward to trying my friend Ashwin's ;)

The NEX-7 better be great because we all have high expectations of it.

Shooting the NEX-5 with the screen tilted up, held near waist level reminds me of shooting a Rollieflex and also allows for some candid photography.
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
IMHO, Nikon missed the boat completely for serious shooters with their mirrorless announcements. Based on all the comments that have been flooding the interwebs I believe this is an excellent, gentle wake up call for Leica. Here's what I believe Leica should develop for their mirrorless camera:

1. M mount (obvious)
2. APS-C sensor, no smaller (1.5X multiplier max)
3. CMOS with great ISO 3200 performance
4. High quality EVF (1M pixel or more)
5. 960K pixel LCD
6. Keep the body as small as possible

Feel free to add your "must-haves".
Curmudgeonly Comment #1:
I have no interest in Nikon 1 or Pentax Q or any other small-sensor system camera. FourThirds format is as small as I want to do as smaller than that requires ultra-ultra fast lenses only to provide the focus zone control that I want.

As someone else mentioned, your list specifies the Ricoh GXR + A12 Camera Mount ("GXR+A12-M") almost perfectly with the exception that the EVF is not quite that resolution. (Answering to another one of your follow on comments, the GXR+A12 Camera Mount is more responsive than the GXR+either A12 AF camera unit, most of the sluggishness you commented on have to do with the AF system, a small bit with the IO subsystem. Without the AF system issues, the IO subsystem sluggishness isn't generally too problematic. .)

What I'd like to see Leica do is take the X1 body's control design and pack the GXR+A12-M functionality into it. Here's what I'd like in addition:

- Make it a little bigger ... up to a maximum of Leica M4 size ... for better handling, easier to use ergonomics.
- Build the EVF into it and give it at tilt up articulation (perfect for copy stand and low-angle shooting use.)
- Add a much faster IO subsystem with fully buffered writes.
- Add articulation to the LCD too, allowing it to be flipped completely closed as well.

Of course, Ricoh could do much of the same by updating the GXR body unit or coming out with an additional "GXR-Pro" model.

Curmudgeonly Comment #2:
I have no interest in AF lenses. My photos with manual focus M-bayonet lenses and SLR lenses adapted to M-bayonet mount on the GXR+A12-M are proving to be consistently better focused, just like my use of adapted manual lenses with the Panasonic G1 always showed better focus consistency than I get with any autofocus system. Manual focus simply works better, most of the time, IMO.
 

bradhusick

Active member
Godfrey, I think your comments are great. I totally agree.

I'd also like it to be available in black paint and silver chrome from day-one. No need for a sapphire LCD cover ($$$).

It would also be great if it used the same battery as the M8/M9.
 

weinschela

Subscriber Member
I'm with Brad (and Godfrey). There is a niche to fill here and Leica can do it. The X1 did not make me happy but I'm also not thrilled with MFT including the Panasonic G3 I have been using for a couple of months. Using M lenses and good ergonomics more important than autofocus. But I suspect Leica will do something AF and the only way to do that with M lenses is sensor moving and that adds complexity and cost.
 

saxshooter

New member
sensor moving... sounds like what Yashica tried with the Contax AX SLR -- moving the film plane to autofocus manual focus lenses. I remember it not being very well received.
 

Amin

Active member
Here's my prediction:
  • APS-C sensor
  • New proprietary mount with adapters for M and R lenses
  • New range of small autofocus primes which are designed by Leica but produced overseas
  • Basic controls like a Leica M with the possible exception of aperture control, which may be in the camera
  • Integrated high quality EVF
 
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