Have a probem -sharpness - DMR or what reason?

[Stuart Richardson]

I know I will get flak for this, but I think the 180/2 is a nonsensical lens choice unless you make a living shooting concerts at night from the 20th row on a tripod. The 180/2.8 APO is dramatically cheaper, dramatically smaller, dramatically lighter, and has essentially the same performance, only one stop slower. Even Erwin Puts admits this: http://www.imx.nl/photo/leica/lenses/lenses/lenses/page88.html

He characterizes the 180/2 as a "tripod only lens". He also says, "The 2.8/180APO is on the same level of image performance if not better." While he is many things, he is trustworthy when it comes to the technical characteristics of Leica lenses. The 180/2.8 APO is just so much more practical. For all the extra expense, size, weight and detrimental effect on handheld use, all you get is another stop. BAD DECISION.

Ok, back under the bridge...

 

[doug]

The 180/2.8 APO is just so much more practical.

Mine should arrive any day now

 

[robsteve]

Stuart:

The extra stop makes a difference when shooting in lower light. It is the difference between shooting sports at 800iso or 1600iso on the DMR. It also focuses quicker than the 2.8 APO.

I have had all three 180mm APOs and after reading Mr Puts' report and doing my own tests, sold the 2.8 APO and kept the 3.4 and f2. In my case, I read into his report that if shooting at f5.6 or so the old f3.4 APO is pretty close to the other two. It is also quite a bit lighter. So when I need speed, I use the f2, when I want a lighter tele to carry, rather than the big zoom, I carry the 180mm f3.4.

In regards to the tripod comment, I think he means you will only get the performance the lens is capable of at f2 if you use a tripod, or I suppose shoot in bright daylight at 1/8000th.

Robert

 

[Stuart Richardson]

Rob -- I should have tempered my response a bit, but I stand buy it. You are obviously a special case since you are a sports shooter who often works in low light. For the vast majority of people, it makes little to no sense to buy a lens that costs 3000 dollars more, weighs more than double (5.5lb versus 2.1lb), takes 100mm front filters versus 67mm and has no advantage (in fact a disadvantage) in handholdability, despite its extra stop. Add to this the fact that their performance is essentially identical, if not slightly in favor of the elmarit, and you have a lens that should only appeal to specialists such as yourself. Too often, however people just look at it and say, WOW, that's a big lens! Oh, and fast is better than slow. Summicron is better than Elmarit. I guess I just want to prevent people from blowing 8000 dollars on a lens that, while extraordinary, is less practical and performs worse for 99% of buyers (if not because of its miniscule disadvantages optically, then for its extra bulk and weight make it difficult to handhold, tires you out from carrying it around on the camera leading to more shake and so on). Anyway, I just think that this lens is one of the prime examples of lens fetishism in the Leica camp.

WOW, that was a rant! I am sorry, I will stop now.

Doug -- I hope you enjoy your Elmarit. I know you will put it to good use!

 

[robsteve]

I guess I just want to prevent people from blowing 8000 dollars on a lens that, while extraordinary, is less practical and performs worse for 99% of buyers (if not because of its miniscule disadvantages optically, then for its extra bulk and weight make it difficult to handhold, tires you out from carrying it around on the camera leading to more shake and so on). Anyway, I just think that this lens is one of the prime examples of lens fetishism in the Leica camp.

WOW, that was a rant! I am sorry, I will stop now.

Doug -- I hope you enjoy your Elmarit. I know you will put it to good use!

Stuart:

It is for the reasons above I went for a $375 180mm f3.4 APO for my scenic/travel and sold my f2.8 APO. I also was an early adopter of 180mm APO Summicron and it probably cost me less than what the 180mm APO f2.8 sells for now.

In reality, I only use the 180mm APO Summicron a few times a year, but with the used prices on R glass the way they are, it is not worth selling it. It also has a large image circle approaching medium format, so I am hoping that if the new R is larger than full frame, it will be adaptable.

Robert

 

[EH21]

I had the 180mm f/3.4 telyt ... its very sharp and also as mentioned lightweight, and for the cost a really great value, but I didn't like the bokeh as much as some of my other leica glass so sold it.

 

[Nitnaros]

I think Stuart has a point there with the 2.8 being the better choice for most use cases.

Robert, you are in your own "focus and hand-hold ability class", I don't know how you do it ... from what I saw in your football and hockey images. So I guess for me a lens much heavier than the 180/2.8 would be harder to hold, carry around and consequently hold steady without mono- or tripod.

Although, R lens prices have come down significantly and will continue to sink is my prediction. As you saw from my other posts, I believe that Photokina will be a real let down for R users. Then some more folks will sell off and only a few will hold on to their R equipment. Maybe I am wrong, we all know soon.

One of the 180's is tempting.
I got so far 15mm/2.8, 35-lux and 60-macro. I plan to add a 80-lux, and maybe one of the 180's. If prices go down, the 21-35 is anther option to consider.

Robert, EH21 - what is the bokeh of the 180/3.4 like?

Pete

 

[robsteve]

I had the 180mm f/3.4 telyt ... its very sharp and also as mentioned lightweight, and for the cost a really great value, but I didn't like the bokeh as much as some of my other leica glass so sold it.

I certainly wouldn't use the 3.4 version for shooting portraits. It is much better at more distant scenics.

Robert

 

[EH21]

Pete,
Just did a search....my version of the 180 f/3.4 didn't have a ROM and I didn't keep it for very long so this was pre lightroom so I didn't keyword my shots with the lenses in flexcolor so sorry to say I can't pull up an shots for you. It is a very sharp lens at near infinity and is so by design if you read Putt's book. The original design was used for military reconnaissance. This makes it a good lens for landscape type work, where you need a lot of detail and are going for big DOF which makes bokeh less of a concern.

If you want a lens in that focal length that does have really nice bokeh and works equally well close up and at a distance try the 80-200mm f/4 zoom. Its one of my favorite leica lenses. Always happy to see the imagery it produces and I also use it on my Canon 5D too. Its so good, I no longer contemplate either the 180/2.8 apo or 180/2.

Eric

 

[doug]

If you want a lens in that focal length that does have really nice bokeh and works equally well close up and at a distance try the 80-200mm f/4 zoom.

I agree, it's a very sweet lens. OTOH I've been wondering if there are 'zoom' people and 'prime' people. I tend to use the 80-200 almost always at 200, and I can't use the 1.4x APO extender on it, so I'm giving the 180 f/2.8 APO a try. The one I received today is an early model, converted to play nice with the 1.4x APO Extender. My UET-R extension tube makes it a near-macro lens with a close-up range with barely any overlap with the normal focussing range. And- the view through the SL viewfinder with this lens is amazing :bugeyes:

 

[Stuart Richardson]

Doug -- I think you will be very pleased with the lens. From what I have heard, it is very similar to the 280/4 that you love so much (I never shot with that one...I would love to..).

 

[EH21]

Kind of an aside but have any of you noticed that some of the ebay adds for R lenses suggest to buy now before the introduction of the R10, whence prices will go up? CameraWest had this then took it off for a while and now its back in their auction descriptions. I hope this is correct and there will be a DMR successor.

Doug,
Yes there probably are "Zoom" people and "Prime" people. I prefer to shoot with zooms on the DMR when possible. I use the zoom for two main reasons - first to fill the frame with my composition and avoid cropping off those dear pixels (since there are only 10mp to start with) and I use the zoom as a MF aid - I zoom in all the way to check focus then zoom back out. It's like having a built in viewfinder magnifier. I do shoot with a few primes - notably the 80 lux and 100 apo macro.

Eric