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R-d1 vs GXR vs NEX 5N

Brian S

New member
I bought a used Leica M8 almost two years ago for $2500, 400 clicks, "mint" with box.
The M8 gets a lot of use. With some patience, you can find a lightly used one at a good price- $2000 range. I also have an Olympus EP2, use it with Leica mount lenses- but prefer the M8.

I liked the M8 enough to pick up an M9 about 6months ago, paid for by selling gear. The M8 with a C-Sonnar and the M9 with a 35mm is a great combo. Both get used.

Some shots here with the Combo, Jamestown Settlement on Thanksgiving Day.

http://www.seriouscompacts.com/gallery/showgallery.php?cat=640
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
...
I think they're so left field that you really do need to spend a week or so to get to grips - but I don't need to use the menus anymore, having configured the relevant buttons - it's certainly not as intuitive as the Ricoh, but fine when you get used to it.
It's not a matter of having to use the menus, I just don't like the organization of the controls at all. It feels very awkward in my hands.

Yes - but EVFs are really at the edge of usability - IMHO neither the much vaunted Olymps VF2 nor the Ricoh are in the same ball park as the A77/NEX5n/Nex7 viewfinder, and while this technology is so close to being unusable this really really matters.
Matter of opinion.

Hmmm well, my NEX does some grand personality changes . . . one minute there's the 18-200 zoom (which is big, but better than it deserves to be). The next it can have a Leica 180 f2.8 app, and the next a 70-200 f2.8 with phase detect.

I understand you can put small sensor zooms on the Ricoh, but I don't personally think that's preferable.
Changing a lens is quite different from changing a camera unit. The "changing a lens" transformation you see with the NEX is the same as doing it with the GXR-M. But when you snick in a different camera unit (remember, there are four, with another APS-C camera unit coming, not just the M mount and the small-sensor P10 and S10 zooms), it is actually a different camera but with the same, excellent control interface.

Well, sorry Godfrey - I think it is a bit of a no-brainer - whilst I absolutely agree that the Ricoh interface is much more elegant I think that the flexibility and image quality (and price) of the 5n knocks it into a cocked hat.
Another matter of opinion. I don't see that the 5n is any more flexible or versatile, and don't see that it performs any better than the GXR-M with the lenses I use. Switching to the A12 28 and A12 50 camera units, I don't see any Sony lenses of comparable performance to GXR fitted with these camera units. The price difference isn't so significant when you're going to spend $500-$1000+ a pop on M-bayonet lenses to have far more usable ergonomics.

For me, the only real draw to the NEX 5n is the new EVF and the articulated LCD, and that's not enough of a draw to "knock it into a cocked hat" at all.

Both cameras can make superb photographs, of course. The differences we're going on about are a matter of minutiae and personal biases.

"Equipment is transitory. Photographs endure. ... Equipment often gets in the way of Photography."

G
 

woodmancy

Subscriber Member
My R-D1 and my Nex C3 are up for sale right now - I am still clutching my GXR with five modules in my sticky little fingers (and saving up for the APS-C zoom) :watch:

Keith
 

Michiel Schierbeek

Well-known member
Interesting discussion.
We enjoy here the hospitality of the Leica forum to discuss Sony and Ricoh.:)
At least we are talking about the usefullnes of rangefinder lenses on these cameras.

One thing I would like to add, besides its interface, is the design/feel quality of the Ricoh. Cold metal.
The camera is small but feels/is very sturdy and looks to me somehow more like a classic camera in concordance with its interface, and not as a designed box with electronics in it with which you can take (great) pictures. In that respect the NEX 7 is moving in the right direction.
You can also put a lot of adapters on the M mount as well and use lots of other lenses. I bought the M42, MD, FD and Leica R adpters for it. Works great.
I red somewhere that they tested the mount up to 5 kg instead of the max. of 1 kg on a G1 or GH2. My Leica R APO Telyt 180/3.4 doesn't feel like it's going to drop off like on the GH2.
Did not try my 300 Canon FD yet :)

The M mount module makes the Ricoh a little (wider) bigger which I like, and it feels that it is made for rangefinder lenses.

Absolutly nothing wrong with the quality of the files.
So I hold my breath for a while with the Nex 7 and wait for the near developments of (a full frame) Fuji and Ricoh some time more.

In the meantime I have a lot to enjoy with the Ricoh.

Michiel
 

back alley

New member
rd1 body will sell for between 1200 and 1600 now...1100 for a quick sale.
batteries are easily found on ebay...i have 2 bodies with about 6 batteries and 2 more new ones still in the packages.
when it was a new camera/sensor it took great images and funnily enough it still takes great images...lovely low light/high iso...fab colours...film like.
epson japan will still do a full cla on one for an amazingly low price...all coordinated by a broker in japan for a low fee.
 

wattsy

Active member
Do any of the Nex or similar cameras have a proper shutter speed dial or is it all done by menus or auto-exposure? That, and the absence or otherwise of an optical viewfinder would be the determining factors for me. I bought a RD-1 when they first came out (late 2004?) and was pretty underwhelmed at the time but I'd take the RD-1 any time in preference to shoehorning an M lens onto what looks like a glorified P&S digicam.*

*Maybe I'm missing something but putting M lenses on these Sony things seems about as attractive a proposition (from a user/ergonomic perspective) as sticking a lens on my iphone.
 

GDI

Member
I have never seen an R-D1 sell for anywhere near $2000 in the last (at least) 4 years. But if they have gone up that much, I have a very nice perfectly functioning one with all the beautiful packaging and accessories I might be convinced to part with.

I have had 3 of them and one had a problem that Epson service fixed in a little over a week. My only M8 had to spend a couple of months, IIRC, to have a warranty problem fixed. So, I don't perceive the Epson as any less reliable - though I am not sure if Epson still provides that level of service.

The Epson is such a pleasure to use that I hate to think of not having one around but I admit to using it a lot less since I got an M9. But I am thinking of selling something to get a GH2 for video - though I suppose I should look into the Nex and Ricoh as well....
 

GDI

Member
Do any of the Nex or similar cameras have a proper shutter speed dial or is it all done by menus or auto-exposure? That, and the absence or otherwise of an optical viewfinder would be the determining factors for me. I bought a RD-1 when they first came out (late 2004?) and was pretty underwhelmed at the time but I'd take the RD-1 any time in preference to shoehorning an M lens onto what looks like a glorified P&S digicam.*

*Maybe I'm missing something but putting M lenses on these Sony things seems about as attractive a proposition (from a user/ergonomic perspective) as sticking a lens on my iphone.
The form factor of the Nex is hard for me to warm up to as well. Your comparison to mounting it to the iPhone is a good one, IMO...
 

jonoslack

Active member
*Maybe I'm missing something but putting M lenses on these Sony things seems about as attractive a proposition (from a user/ergonomic perspective) as sticking a lens on my iphone.
Hmm - well, I think you're missing something. I spent years and years saying NEVER to EVFs, tried many, hated all of them. Shooting M lenses on a NEX5n is fine - focus peaking makes focusing really fast and easy - all over the frame - no crappy zooming in and out - the shutter lag is almost non existent (much less than my lovely M9). It's a funny thing, and it takes getting used to, but I now rather like it. The low light is really really good - put a nocti on it and you can take black cats in a coal mine. The EVF is really good - so good that you begin to forget that it isn't optical . . . and then when you go back to an optical viewfinder it's horrifying that it doesn't show the white balance!

. . . . and the NEX 7 will give you separate dials for shutter speed and ISO (or whatever else you want them to be). The NEX5n has one on the back for shutter speed, but it's fiddley.

The Leica R 180 f2.8 APO is wonderful on it as well. . . . and the 28-90 zoom, focusing simple and fast. excellent.

. . . . as for ergonomics, it has a fine grip for your right hand, and you hold the lens with your left - dials are a little close together, but you quickly get used to them, and I can do anything with my eye to the viewfinder now . . . .if you have to go into the menus, then the touch screen is fast and efficient.

It's not romantic, but it does work really well . . . so well, that I often use it on evening jaunts with M lenses instead of the M9.
all the best
 

iiiNelson

Well-known member
I have never seen an R-D1 sell for anywhere near $2000 in the last (at least) 4 years. But if they have gone up that much, I have a very nice perfectly functioning one with all the beautiful packaging and accessories I might be convinced to part with.

I have had 3 of them and one had a problem that Epson service fixed in a little over a week. My only M8 had to spend a couple of months, IIRC, to have a warranty problem fixed. So, I don't perceive the Epson as any less reliable - though I am not sure if Epson still provides that level of service.

The Epson is such a pleasure to use that I hate to think of not having one around but I admit to using it a lot less since I got an M9. But I am thinking of selling something to get a GH2 for video - though I suppose I should look into the Nex and Ricoh as well....
A couple years ago, when the M8 was still going for $5500 and the M8.2 was going for $6000, the RD-1 variants were still selling in the $2-3000 range... Mostly because of "cult status" and being a reasonably affordable digital rangefinder IMO. I only know this because I was just starting to get serious about pursuing a digital rangefinder around that time. I settled for a G1 and later a GF1 to hold me over until I could raise the funds for a M8... but then of course the full frame M9 rumors began and I skipped the M8 altogether. I eventually bought a M9 last year and a M9-P last week when they were readily available without having to wait months for one.
 

jonoslack

Active member
Yes, it isn't useful, IME. See also:
Hi Vivek -
How much experience do you have? I tried with the NEX5 - rejected it as unusable and forgot about it. For a different reason I got a NEX5n with a viewfinder . . . and then a Hawks factory helicoid adapter because Douglas recommended them , and I find that the combination is a joy to use - the controls all work properly without taking my eye from the viewfinder, focusing with peaking is a snap, and the whole package handles beautifully. The ability to focus close with M lenses is great fun . . . and useful too.

I understand that these things are a matter of taste and opinion . . . . but I'm not the only person to like it - certainly it takes getting used to. The only caveat I have is that I don't think it's a good solution for wide angle - but then no APS/c or smaller sensor is going to be that.

I've played around with the GXR and the M module, and I thought it fine (the controls are certainly nicer), but the LCD isn't really as good as the NEX, and the viewfinder on the Sony is really in a different league it's so much better. If you want to shoot jpg - fine - get the GXR - if you want to shoot RAW, then I think the Sony produces better results as well.

Not suggesting you should like it for yourself . . . just pointing out that there are different views on this.
 

GDI

Member
A couple years ago, when the M8 was still going for $5500 and the M8.2 was going for $6000, the RD-1 variants were still selling in the $2-3000 range... Mostly because of "cult status" and being a reasonably affordable digital rangefinder IMO. I only know this because I was just starting to get serious about pursuing a digital rangefinder around that time. I settled for a G1 and later a GF1 to hold me over until I could raise the funds for a M8... but then of course the full frame M9 rumors began and I skipped the M8 altogether. I eventually bought a M9 last year and a M9-P last week when they were readily available without having to wait months for one.
You must be talking about new R-D1 prices; I was referring to used prices. The three used ones I bought ranged from $1300 ( refurb'd with warranty from Epson) to $900. The first I bought was from Epson in 2006.
 
V

Vivek

Guest
Not suggesting you should like it for yourself . . . just pointing out that there are different views on this.

Jono: That (different view or rather experience) was the purpose of my earlier post. It is quite likely that I have little xperience than anyone who had bought and sold a camera in a flash, in general. It is also likely that I have very little experience with Leica gear. Neither impact my user experience. :)
 

LCT

Member
...If you want to shoot jpg - fine - get the GXR - if you want to shoot RAW, then I think the Sony produces better results as well...
Interesting indeed. I have experience with none but i would have thought the contrary. May i ask which raw converter you've used with the Ricoh?
 
M

Mark Schretlen

Guest
They're all good but ...

Way back during the rangefinder vs SLR wars of the 1960s and 70s a single quiet technological advance forever tipped market share towards SLR dominance. When auto aperature became the norm for SLRs in the early 1970s it meant that rangefinders no longer had superiority with respect to focusing and shooting at middle and small aperatures. An SLR shooter no longer had to focus at the widest aperature and then manually stop down the aperture prior to exposure - this technologial advance improved the "shooting workflow" for SLRs.

We've given up this auto aperature advantage when we adapt manual focus lenses to DSLRs, mFT, NEX, and other non-rangefinder mirrorless systems. Optical rangefinders have, and always will have, this "shooting workflow" advantage. So will film SLRs with auto aperture.
 

Michiel Schierbeek

Well-known member
Interesting indeed. I have experience with none but i would have thought the contrary. May i ask which raw converter you've used with the Ricoh?
Well if I may join in on this.
I have a Ricoh and although the JPEG's are very good, I prefer RAW, of course.
I like to turn the files into the JPEG's, or whatever, I want. Lightroom does well but I red a fellow called Malland, who is working with the M module much longer then me, in Rangefinderforum (down again), who says that for the Mac RPP (Raw Photo Processor) is very good. Have to try that soon.

Anyway there is lots of room to play in the files of the M Module and I see no reason to be limited to JPG.

Michiel
 

docmoore

Subscriber and Workshop Member
says that for the Mac RPP (Raw Photo Processor) is very good. Have to try that soon.

Michiel
RPP is an acquired taste...once you understand it is it outstanding...

Really allows a lot of latitude and development.

C1 LR 3 and RPP .... all recognize the Ricoh DNG...not bad. All sorts of choices for development.

Bob
 

jonoslack

Active member
Interesting indeed. I have experience with none but i would have thought the contrary. May i ask which raw converter you've used with the Ricoh?
Oh - none - I've just looked - the point really was a criticism of the Sony jpg files rather than a criticism of the Ricoh RAW (and ricohs have always produced good jpgs). But when it comes to RAW, the sensor in the NEX5n is really excellent - the extra resolution isn't wasted, the dynamic range and high ISO are excellent, and the colour is also good. I use Aperture.
 
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