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Leica S Leak

robmac

Well-known member
http://www.flickr.com/photos/29782425@N08/2879015170/sizes/l/

Designed to appeal to photogs who have MF kit and DSLR - sort of hybrid between the two
Is 'long-term investment' for Leica (aka betting firm on it me thinks)

37MP
30mm x 45mm sensor - 56% larger than FF
SLR-esque body
New lenses, some leaf shutter for higher flash sync

$$$ - unknown but assured to be nasty (rumored at Euro 25-30,000 - I assume body or body+kit lens)

Tech will eventually 'trickle down' to a new R (that said, sounds as if S2 and M8 will be the linchpin products for Leica)
No word on if will take R glass, but will likely need adapters IF will take them.

Logic - assuredly debatable.

Very interesting tech but IMHO - will have a TOUGH time permeating professional MF user market due to (in no order) only (I assume) Leica lenses can be used, likely cost, Leica service & support, penetration into rental houses, etc.

Very neat concept but going smack up against 30MP+ MF systems from Hassy, Phamiya, Sinar, etc - all of which are dropping in price like a rock, have much greater market penetration, wider lens selection (and cross-platform use of lenses with stop-down), wider Svc & Support operation - and established reputations re: electronics reliability.

Also with MFDB prices dropping and the advent of $2700 21MP FF DSLRs, many photogs can more easily afford to have both a MFDB and DSLR and, with adapters, have a backup unit of some repute on hand.
 
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robmac

Well-known member
If I won the lottery, would be sweet to use, but I can't help but think it would have made more sense a couple of years ago when MDFB prices were in the stratosphere and pro-FF DSLRS were $8000 - and stayed there for more than a month (clean 1Ds3s now for $5600).

Mixture, on my part, of technology-driven excitement and a sad 'sigh'.

FYI Edit - LUF poster indicating dealer info on MF R lenses ceasing production. May explain some of the lower dealer 'demo' prices have been seeing of late.
 
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Terry

New member
I'll take the glass half full side of this on pricing. Look at the lens in the picture. It is a Summarit, so clearly it makes me think that they have thought about pricing. The article also pointed out that size is between 5D and 1DsMIII so they seem connected with reality.(But I could be 100% wrong!!)
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Exactly what i guessed all along. Looks very interesting , how long till it hits the streets and how much is the 64 k question. But going in the right direction and the lenses someone actually knew what they where doing on there offering. Now it needs to be close to MF pricing I agree . Hassy, Phase and Sinar have dropped below 20k or more to offer something similar sensor wise.
 

robmac

Well-known member
IF the pricing is realistic (not Euro 30,000 for a body or body+kit) and they can do something about their S&S structure and penetrate rental houses (or rent via dealers), it could do well.

Uptake will also be slow as I suspect most pros interested will wait and see how the aforementioned non-tech variables shake-out, not to mention what the reliability looks like.

Terry, bear in mind with the larger sensor the 75/2.5 will have the FoV or something like a 50/2 so the summarit label may have more to so with the FL than the price.

Hellishly interesting tech/concept, but I guess would have to call me glass half empty on it for the time being.
 

Terry

New member
I was also looking at the focus ring which looks like it has the same rubber as the M Summarit line.
 

robmac

Well-known member
Ah...

I wonder if the new lenses, being AF, are plastic vs metal (to keep the mass down that the AF system needs to spin)?

It is also the first of a new line of S cameras, so could prove interesting on the MF front going fwd.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
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Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Now If this comes out next month ,my guess it is a P45 Plus sensor from Kodak cut down. At this time really the only sensor that makes sense. Someone needs to do the math on this , but it just might be a 6.8 micron sensor. if it comes out next year it maybe a new sensor from Kodak. We need to hear more about this for sure. There are some cons to this having a integrated body and sensor . The camera part goes down your not in great shape. It does lend itself to be smaller but at a risk
 

woodyspedden

New member
I think the issue is going to come down to whether Leica can get working pros to really buy into their model. For sure this camera system is not about wealthy amateurs and collectors.........this is a product for folks who make a living shooting fashion, fine art etc.

I am anxious to follow the story but I am wary that the pros are going to go for this one. I think that for the product to be successful there needs to be a bridge strategy for someone who already owns a portfolio of lenses to move gradually over to the Leica lenses. Without this you would be looking at something more like $50K to get shooting. That is a tough sell.

Woody
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
It's a tough sell to get whoever has a MF system already to shift over. I need a VERY compelling reason now to do that. Sure gear lust as always but too switch me now it would be very hard. I need to justify the ROI on it like any other Pro. 30,000 euros and i am already out of the running
 

LJL

New member
From this very brief leak, if true, I have to say that this is a very interesting offering from Leica. It does sit squarely in the space that several have been discussing/wishing for.....something bigger than 35mm DSLR from a sensor size, and something less cumbersome than MF from an ergonomic perspective. The new lenses, could also be quite interesting for sure. (Recall that even if they are the less costly Summarits, if like the M versions in performance, folks could be getting a lot of bang for the buck.)

As Woody points out, the issue is going to be just who is going to jump on this. It really does need to be a number of pros that do have a way to start replacing/adding glass, as there is no obvious "bridge" from anything else right now. If Leica is able to deliver this soon, and if they do have their awful S&S worked out better, and if the glass can be kept somewhat more affordable but not yield on quality, they could have a very good shot at folks picking this up. Honestly, I do find it an attractive alternative to going heavy on MF, yet busting past 35mm DSLR for just what they are targeting....fashion, fine art, etc. The thought of something more compact, but able to turn out really great captures is intriguing at least. The issue will come up about how easily/hard it will be to keep up with new tech, especially in the sensor, where MF folks now just replace that back. May not become an issue if most of it can be handled with firmware updates, but they may be a limit.

Overall, this does look rather interesting. I just hope it is real and that Leica has learned from past debacles to get something that works correctly out the door quickly, and then support it flawlessly. If not, no pro will bother with it, and most others will just watch it languish as newer things land all around it from DSLR and MF camps.

LJ
 
V

Vivek

Guest
How many Mamiya ZD cameras have been sold exactly (even at Mamiya's price)?

Yes, price will be the factor here.

As Rob pointed out, the Summarit, etc names don't mean anything when the format size goes up.
 

LJL

New member
How many Mamiya ZD cameras have been sold exactly (even at Mamiya's price)?

Yes, price will be the factor here.

As Rob pointed out, the Summarit, etc names don't mean anything when the format size goes up.
Well, the ZD sports a smaller sensor, bit more cumbersome body, questionable overall quality (body and image), so not sure if this is good direct comparison point. The article underscores that this new S2 is targeting professional photogs doing fashion, studio, fine art type shooting, whereas the ZD was sort of targeting the just barely MF entry point. Maybe it is the same group, but I was not remotely interested in the ZD when it was announced or released, but I do have a lot more interest in this Leica S2. Hard to explain, and it is surely not about being a Leicaphile ;) The ZD looked appeared to me as a somewhat "get into MF at the basement" sort of camera, and though it promised a lot, it was not making as many marks for the pros that needed it to perform and perform and perform. Not saying this S2 is going to make that grade, but it does seem to have thought about some of the needs (dual shutter options), faster (?) AF lenses, T-S lenses from the start, a more robust sensor most likely, etc. The ZD may have talked about some of these future capabilities, but is it really delivering there? (Not slamming the ZD, just do not hear folks raving about it, or really talking about it so much. Most move up to the replaceable back version for greater flexibility and better IQ.) This S2 could fall victim to the same sort of things.....being more locked into the DSLR frame of mind, which dictates throw-away body as tech improves. Then again, maybe not, if the 37MP sensor size hits a real operating and IQ sweetspot. Not everybody wants/needs 50MP, and 15-20MP is just not enough.

I do find this to be an attractive middle ground, but the price may be too high, and the overall utility may be hamstrung by a thinner lens line to start. Just too soon to tell. If priced right, I could see going this route over my present plans toward Sinar or Hasselblad.

LJ
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Good for Leica. When it comes to pros, I think this will impact the top end of Canon as much as the bottom end of MF. The smaller MF formats are going bye-bye anyway as the full frame 645 60+ meg back make their entrance.
 

Lars

Active member
Very interesting, what a beauty. :) But I suspect pricing will be as rumored.

It's good to see manufacturers move away from the legacy of specific film format sizes, there are some indications that other manufacturers might be headed this way as well.

I'm inclined to view this as an attempt to (re)grab the high end of the DSLR market, more than MF.
 

robmac

Well-known member
It's hellishly interesting, but Leica has a LOT of variables to get in line to make this a success in the pro market; I truly hope they juggle them successfully.
 

LJL

New member
Good for Leica. When it comes to pros, I think this will impact the top end of Canon as much as the bottom end of MF. The smaller MF formats are going bye-bye anyway as the full frame 645 60+ meg back make their entrance.
Marc,
What will be interesting is to see if this new sensor size really delivers and hits the marks. It is more than 35mm FF will be able to offer, maybe not in total number of pixels, but at least in pixels of a size that may provide better overall performance. There is nothing "sacred" about the larger sensor of the bigger MF cameras, except having more pixels for sure. If they are needed and utilized, that segment will not be threatened so much. It is the lower end, where DSLR and MF start to butt heads a bit more that could become very interesting, and where this S2 is landing. Even if Canon introduced a new 40MP 1-series body, I would still have to think about going that route, versus this 37MP slightly bigger sensor and more flexibility route. So in that respect, I think you are dead on.....this can go after the Canon and maybe Nikon high end users that are considering MF, but just really do not have the complete need yet.

Guess we shall all know soon enough where this may go. I would still love the overall handling of a fast, sturdy DSLR, but would also like to get more of the IQ of the MF offerings. This could be a way to get both. I do worry about the pricing, however. If Leica misses the mark here, it may remain more attractive to stick with a high end DSLR plus a MF for what it can deliver, rather than straddle a gap with an expensive system that may still need DSLR and MF options to round it out. Really hard to know. I do like how it is shaping up.

LJ
 

robmac

Well-known member
The form factor is cool, but I would think as a MF pro, the back/body distinction, while it adds some bulk, also adds a safety margin.

IF the S2 body packs it in on a shoot, the whole enchilada goes to NJ/Solms for _____ wks/months. There's no having a lower-res backup back/back to slap on or sending some stressed-out PA to the local rental shop for a quick back replacement, etc.

As result, you'd need a backup high-res SLR with it's own glass (assumptions made re: S glass fitting on say a 1Ds3) or a traditional MFDB kit as a backup - with it's own glass.

While the intent may be to target the fashion, etc market - the state of Leica's S&S structure (currently) and the all-eggs-in-one-basket form factor would suggest it may appeal more to the uber-high-end DSLR user possessing of suitable backup gear. A Phase-like, overnight-temp replacement warranty would also be a wise idea on Leica's part.

But again, still cool as hell.
 

LJL

New member
Rob,
Agree. That is the one thing that really makes this sort of offering nervous....what do you do about a back-up? (aside from having more than one to start!!) The Phase concept of overnight replacement would be a very attractive feature, but it still does not get you completing the job on THAT day. Hey, maybe this is where that Canon 5DMkII can come into play with a few lenses. Never going to be the same, but then slapping a different/smaller back onto a MF is not all that different in some respects (except for the critical issue of the glass).

LJ
 
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