Leica S Leak

[Guy Mancuso]

There are three things that have to come alive to consider from the MF folks. Shutter lag, Shooting rate and ISO 1600 that would maybe make us convert. the other is service with a guarantee promise for Pro's a loaner or 1 week service time. I can get a back here in my hands by 10 am tomorrow morning and actually just happened in Florida for Bob something was wrong with his P45 and he had a new back in his hands by the next morning to shoot the models. If leica can make those kinds of promises and service agreements to there customers than Pro's maybe interested. If there after this market which apparently they are than major improvements and loaner/service issues needs a major shot in the arm. this goes for anyone. You want to attract Pro's than you need to deliver for them.

 

[Stuart Richardson]

I can't see it costing 30,000 euros for a body and lens. That is more than any of the other MFD back kits in a similar megapixel range. Leica may be able to play off their lens superiority in 35mm against Canon and Nikon, but that argument doesn't hold as well against Mamiya and Fuji (particularly with DAC correction), let alone Zeiss, Schneider and Rodenstock. And given that Leica 35mm lenses cost more than medium format lenses from Zeiss and Schneider, it will be interesting to see where Leica prices their lenses.

If this is to be a bridge camera, it needs bridge pricing as well. There really is no way around that. People may pay more for less features in 35mm, but that is a much harder sell for the working pros that this is marketed at.

I actually do expect the pricing will be less than 30,000 euros...I have the feeling that Leica finally had that sink in a bit. Marketing against Canon and Nikon is one thing, but Hasselblad, Sinar, Leaf, Phase and Mamiya is another entirely.

 

[robmac]

What gets me, all the cool tech aside, what is Leica's competitive advantage with the S2?

With the DMR it was the CCD sensor (for some), the lack of AA and ability to use Leica glass sans stop-down. The M8 is a different animal.

But for the S:

1. Form factor - but that is a 2x sword as we mention.

2. Leica glass - no question there; but at what price vs RS, Hassy, Mamiya, Contax 645., etc? How flexible with the S mount be? Can other glass be used in stop-down if your Leica __mm APO S tanks? Can the S glass be used on a backup ____ in stop-down mode? I suspect the answer is no - as the lens pictured lacks an aperture ring.

3. Weather sealed - ok, neat but not exactly a sustainable advantage vs the competition.

While a cool product, the strategy behind the S2 just has me shaking my head vs. the alternative routes they could have gone - affordable DRF, R10, R-glass in EF/F, etc mount (BIG cash cow), etc.

I suspect one issue is that given their size, there are only so many R&D irons they can have in the fire at one time. I do think it's safe to say the new S line is either going to make or break Leica.

 

[charlesphoto]

The problem is that Leica have egg on their face when it comes to reliability vis a vis digital. There was a built in market for the M8 due to existing film M users and so even though they did themselves no favor with the UV/IR mess, initial recall, and cases of SDS, people still snatched t up because of existing lenses and it was (just) affordable. But a lot of pros said no way due to poor reliabilty reports and long service down times (both of which happened to me).

So it's going to take a lot of arm twisting (and a truly amazing, fully vetted, and reliable product) to get working pros to switch to a wholly new and very expensive system.

Best of luck Leica. Personally I think you should have come up with more rangefinders (and maybe you still will) and/or a truly unique p&s and really worked on your best known identity as a maker of fine compact cameras.

 

[Arne Hvaring]

If real, an interesting concept for sure. And we (or many) thought that Leica would not be able to develop an AF-line of lenses. So will these new lenses actually be made in Wetzlar?
One wonders if Leica will regain the no doubt huge R&D cost of this ambitious project.
As far as the "announcement" or rather leak is concerned, there are a couple of things that bother me: The picture does look unreal, more like an artist's impression than a photograph of a real camera (could be the reproduction). Besides a viewfinder prism for 45x30mm format will be BIG, the proportions of the camera shown does IMO not support a sensor of this size, unless another viewfinder technology is used.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I think a lot of great sensible comments so far folks. I think we all get IT, now the question comes does it fit the bill. Cost versus results and functionality. I agree the service part is a key element here. leica's service track record on the M8 was not something you want to build a business module around. I had SDS twice and battery issues along the way. Did not instill the confidence i need as a Pro, i dealt with it but it was not easy as others have reported all along. I seriously hope that has changed and they seriously consider ramping up loaners and service times to 7 to 10 days guaranteed. It does look promising but right now it is eye candy. Until more facts on price , delivery and all that goes with it.

 

[John Black]

Rob - I can only speak for myself; here's where I see the advantage. If I leave on a trip and pack the M8, dSLR (pick your flavor) and a P25 based medium format kit - it's ALOT of gear. Add chargers, batteries, lenses, trinkets, etc. I've gone on a trip with more gear "luggage" than my wife's actual garment luggage! She just rolls her eyes and also grasps the magnitude of how much has been spent on gear. You can only hide so many Domke J2's before the light bulb goes on

Tally up all that gear - say $8k in a 5D2 based system with lenses, a M8 with 1 or 2 lenses and ultra basic medium format kit. It hits $20k real fast. Each system has its advantages here and there, but using all three is a royal pain in the ass. Horses for courses..., blah, blah, but I still have to drag along the horse trailer! And if I get the cajones to leave one system behind, I guarantee I'll wish I had THAT system and not the 1 or 2 that came along for day - murphy's law.

So, I like (and value) the idea (promise) of one system delivering that quality in moderately sized camera body. I can work with it with ~3 lenses --- something wide, something normal and something telephoto. Here's where price is key. If the Leica prices the S2 w/ 75mm for $17,995 which is on par with the new HY6 kit, or a P30+ with a P645 kit or the H3DII-31 --- then Leica is positioned well. Not great, but well. The next two lenses will be budget busters - probably $3500 per lens, so the kit would be $25k.

In absolute dollars $25k is heart-stopping, but I've got that much sunk in gear already across multiple systems. If Leica prices it right, I can see myself switching, but with alot of anxiety attached. As others have said, it needs to be solid from day one. Spending that much to go through a year of firmware & hardware & software messes isn't worth it.

I'm very interested, but Leica could squash that interest with the wrong price tag. If the price is right, then I'm guardedly optimistic. I'm very curious to see how Hasselblad counters Leica's new system.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Here is the counter as it is today with the one sensor with micro lenses. Hassy H31 around 18k with body and lens. Phase P30 plus with body and lens around 19k. Sinar same sensor there new 65 around 19k or so. These all use the same sensor. Than there is more higer res. backs also in all the systems. So if Leica comes in as you estimate i would call that pretty damn good. Any more than that it becomes a toss up and many would stay where they are or even go higher in MF systems. This one needs to be priced very carefully. Also needs to blow MF away in functionality like speed , ISO and shutter lag which are really our biggest issues in MF. Size does not mean much really but certainly anything smaller is a gift and I agree three systems is a nightmare.

 

[Arne Hvaring]

It's real enough all right. Strategic alliance with Phase One for development and distribution sounds good. No tech. details yet.

 

[Uaiomex]

A very expensive fast dslr with medium format quality with 2:3 ratio? In my opinion, big mistake. Too long for portraits, great for PJ though. Hey! perfect for documenting a South Hampton wedding.
Eduardo

 

[John Black]

Well, if 3:2 is a mistake, what about Leaf's funky dimensions on their new 50 MP sensor? I'm not implying Leaf's move somehow validates Leica's, just pointing out a weirder aspect ratio.

 

[robmac]

The Phase deal sounds good.

 

[etrigan63]

Just got off the extremely slow LUF ticker that the S2 is official. Getting Andreas to send me the press release and official images. 70mm is the standard lens on this beast.

 

[Uaiomex]

Well, true. The more I think about it, the more sense it makes. In a world of half a million dollar Ferraris on backorder, there must be a place for a 25K Leica. The problem is, the entire world is decomposing at a faster rate now.

And thinking about Leaf's new sensor... well, still sounds a little weird to me.
Eduardo

Well, if 3:2 is a mistake, what about Leaf's funky dimensions on their new 50 MP sensor? I'm not implying Leaf's move somehow validates Leica's, just pointing out a weirder aspect ratio.

 

[gero]

this is grate but why not modular?

 

[johnastovall]

I must say, Leica USA continues it lack of web savy. Nothing not the the press release, nothing, nada, nada, nada.....

Maybe it'll be there next week.

 

[LJL]

Well, the concept does sound intriguing for sure. The price being tossed around (25k euros) is just stupidly out of line compared to what is now their new competitor group (Sinar, Phase, Hasselblad, Leaf, Mamiya). Even if the glass is outstanding, the entry price sounds way too high, and there still is the fear and loathing of the support and service part of things. I like the idea. I am sure Leica can pull it off as as very good piece of kit. The price will keep me waiting and looking elsewhere for as good or better. Unless there is service and support at the level pros need and demand, Leica will not be seeing an order from me on this one. Really too bad. A lot of the right pieces of the puzzle in a size and functionality that hits the marks. The price and concern over service are just typical "Leica".

LJ

 

[KurtKamka]

I bet Leica could deliver a nice f1.4 lens for the system ... but I cringe in thinking about what the price might be ...

 

[carstenw]

3:2 sensor in a MF camera? I don't know if that is an advantage or not, but for someone who dishes out loads for a 1Ds3, it might... Maybe this is MF's strike back at 35mm to re-take lost business

It looks neat, and I can imagine that an M8/S2 kit would cover all bases. M8+R8/R9/DMR is already a little odd, with two cameras with the same sensor size, but this goes a bit beyond that. Neat.

We have heard rumours of both a $10K price, and a $25-30K price. I wonder where it will be? Hopefully below $20K, or even around $15K, if they want to attract much business. There must be savings from not having all the external interfaces of a typical MF body/lens/DB.

I am not so keen on the hard edges on the camera, but then I thought that the R8 was ugly the first time I saw it, and by now I find it beautiful.

Interestingly, 30x45 is 50% more area than a FF 35mm sensor, so with a crop factor, it would still be possible to use R lenses on an adapter and get decent MP from it. I find it odd that I cannot see the bayonet on this body, so maybe Leica made the bayonet close enough to the sensor to fit R lenses?

Also interestingly, 66% of 37MP is 24MP, so maybe the "far from dead" R10 will be a 24MP camera? That would be awesome, and exactly what I need for my 180 Cron.

 

[Stuart Richardson]

Well, the concept does sound intriguing for sure. The price being tossed around (25k euros) is just stupidly out of line compared to what is now their new competitor group (Sinar, Phase, Hasselblad, Leaf, Mamiya). Even if the glass is outstanding, the entry price sounds way too high, and there still is the fear and loathing of the support and service part of things. I like the idea. I am sure Leica can pull it off as as very good piece of kit. The price will keep me waiting and looking elsewhere for as good or better. Unless there is service and support at the level pros need and demand, Leica will not be seeing an order from me on this one. Really too bad. A lot of the right pieces of the puzzle in a size and functionality that hits the marks. The price and concern over service are just typical "Leica".

LJ

Well, one note on service -- I figure they will sell 1000 of these if they are lucky...assuming it does not have issues on arrival like the M8, it is not unreasonable to think they will be able to do pro-level service. Low volume and high price means they can probably sell these with the promise that they will receive priority service -- it is unlikely that so many will fail at the same time, leading to the problems that the M8 had -- since they are so few, they can let them jump the line without horrendously impacting the rest of their service department. Or at least, there's hoping...