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Leica M9-P Viewfinder framing lines

KeithL

Well-known member
Folks, I'm not advocating that Leica remove the existing capability to frame inaccurately but rather hope they add critical framing capability in the M10.
 

KeithL

Well-known member
I have Live View on the GXR. Works great.
I almost never look at the display on the M.
Different cameras. I Use them differently.
Why is this such an issue?
No need to feel threatened, you won't have to buy the M10.
 

KeithL

Well-known member
(Of course, for precise architectural or copy work you do need precision - but then a Leica wouldn't be my first choice as a tool.)
Agreed, I wouldn't dream of using an M9 for this work.

Having said that I have another dream of an M with critical framing capability. Perhaps with the introduction of the M10 my dream will come true.

;)
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Folks, I'm not advocating that Leica remove the existing capability to frame inaccurately but rather hope they add critical framing capability in the M10.
I believe your wish will come true Keith.:)

The M10 will retain the traditional rangefinder focusing because it would be corporate suicide not to.

However, it will be a CMOS sensor, therefore will also allow LCD Live View. Presumably, it will be a better resolution LCD or live view would be useless.

I see the framing aspects of M cameras as neither a flaw or a charm. It is a given with a mechanical rangefinder camera. Other attempts to alter this type of rangefinder shooting experience have not fared well ... like the Contax G cameras.

The concept of "a Leica M purist" stems from being a significantly different relationship with the subject compared to other cameras like a SLR. Whether all Leica M users get this relationship, or use it to its greatest benefit, is a different matter altogether.

In essence, it is all about an intuitive view of content over what the image may look like. Not only is the framing approximate, you have no direct feedback as to what effect the focal length has on the subject, or what effect the selected aperture will have on DOF. Intuitive experience is the only guide, if a guide is even needed for this type of photography.

I use a rangefinder for this specific reason, and can say with certainty the unfettered relationship with the subject, and world I may be shooting in, provides an undistracted result where a forced focus on content and emotional immediacy trumps draftsman accuracy.

Sometimes I get lucky with a DSLR, and retain that rangefinder type relationship despite all the feedback as to what the image will look like. With a M camera the ONLY feedback is what the image is about, so the content relationship is assured ... and has been since I began using one all these many years ago. My work across the board suffers "content separation anxiety" when the M isn't an integral part of my tool kit. The M helps keep me grounded in what my images are about, and strongly influences all my work with other cameras in that regard. Others may not need that, but I have learned that I do.

All the best,

-Marc
 

KeithL

Well-known member
Marc, we are in agreement.

Despite my deliberately mischievous demeanour I do understand the qualities that people admire about the M concept. I would value a solution that not only retains the concept but expands upon it.

Best

Keith
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Marc, we are in agreement.

Despite my deliberately mischievous demeanour I do understand the qualities that people admire about the M concept. I would value a solution that not only retains the concept but expands upon it.

Best

Keith
As I said, I believe you will get what you seek in the M10.

-Marc
 

Paratom

Well-known member
to the op: I also would say its is normal.
if it is a trust for you: the "modern" x100 (which I like quite a bit) is even worse/less accurate when using the OVF. And I still much prefer the OVF in 99% of the times over the more accurate (regarding framing) EVF.

I also would like to mention that different Leica 50mm lenses have different "real" focal length. The Summarit for example is a bit shorter than the Summilux. And there is some variation even between the same lenses (I believe you can find info on the lens about the effective focal length).

I think it is just one of the few compromises we have to accept so far when using an optical rangefinder.
 
V

Vivek

Guest
Does make me wonder why Leica did not use variable framelines as did the Konica S2 and Zeiss Ikon finder on the high-end Polaroids, my Model 180 being one of them. The framelines change size as you focus to compensate for both parallax and changing field of view. The mechanism is fairly simple. We're talking 1960s solution that does not draw battery power. A simple mechanical solution exists.

Both the cameras you quote are P&S (ie., no interchangeable lenses) cameras. Fairly straightforward to implement that mechanism.

Not possible in an M camera.
 

Brian S

New member
All you need is a two piece mask with a cam to change the spacing of the framelines with distance. The mechanism required for parallax correction already provides distance information. The mechanism for bringing up the correct framelines could set the cam for relative motion. You would want a "wide/tele" setting for cameras with multiple framelines visible at one time. Would be easiest on an M2/M3.
 
V

Vivek

Guest
If it is that simple, I do not see why an M9 can not be modified to do just that.

OTOH, if the M10 were to have live view, it would be much easier to have it electronically, I would think.
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
The M10 will retain the traditional rangefinder focusing because it would be corporate suicide not to.

However, it will be a CMOS sensor, therefore will also allow LCD Live View. Presumably, it will be a better resolution LCD or live view would be useless.

I see the framing aspects of M cameras as neither a flaw or a charm. It is a given with a mechanical rangefinder camera. Other attempts to alter this type of rangefinder shooting experience have not fared well ... like the Contax G cameras.

The concept of "a Leica M purist" stems from being a significantly different relationship with the subject compared to other cameras like a SLR. Whether all Leica M users get this relationship, or use it to its greatest benefit, is a different matter altogether.

In essence, it is all about an intuitive view of content over what the image may look like. Not only is the framing approximate, you have no direct feedback as to what effect the focal length has on the subject, or what effect the selected aperture will have on DOF. Intuitive experience is the only guide, if a guide is even needed for this type of photography.

I use a rangefinder for this specific reason, and can say with certainty the unfettered relationship with the subject, and world I may be shooting in, provides an undistracted result where a forced focus on content and emotional immediacy trumps draftsman accuracy.

Sometimes I get lucky with a DSLR, and retain that rangefinder type relationship despite all the feedback as to what the image will look like. With a M camera the ONLY feedback is what the image is about, so the content relationship is assured ... and has been since I began using one all these many years ago. My work across the board suffers "content separation anxiety" when the M isn't an integral part of my tool kit. The M helps keep me grounded in what my images are about, and strongly influences all my work with other cameras in that regard. Others may not need that, but I have learned that I do.
+1

- An M is a mechanical-optical rangefinder camera. If the M10 does not have an optical rangefinder, it is not an M. Leica would hopefully name such a camera something else. I bet they would suffer marketing consequences if they didn't.

- I could care less if a sensor is CMOS, CCD, RTFM, FUBAR, LS/MFT, or whatever technology ... as long as it does a great job of recording the image with extraordinary detail and a great dynamic range.

- If the M10 provides Live View, great—always a nice plus, but I really couldn't care less whether it does or not. I use other cameras when I need ultra-precise framing accuracy; it's a different photographic mode at work.

I have more than enough equipment for any photographic need or want I have at present, and for a long time to come. I might not be ready to buy a new camera until the M12 or M13 is released. I hope they remain Leica M cameras.

G
 

Gary Clennan

New member
Critical framing is overrated but I would indeed find live view valuable for other reasons. Remember also that it is rumored that the M10 will be B&W only....
 
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