M Monochrom . . . . it's not a review folks

[docmoore]

My second question is for me maybe the more important one and that is...

2. Assuming there are moderatly significant differences seen, say in the tonality of each image, if an identical Nik preset is chosen to be applied to each image, will the resulting two images keep their repsective differences or somehow do the algorithms contained and used within a Nik preset, overide to a degree those differences when elmulating say a given film setting, and the two resulting images (after Nik), loose their individuality to a greater degree?

Dave (D&A)

Not Marc and would be interested in his take but here is mine...after running a number of different present film emulsion settings on one Monochrom file and striving to keep everything the same there is a change in how that file looked.

However, having used SE Pro 2 and its predecessor to handle many color files I have the sense that the tonal aspects of the film presets will have a major difference when presented a DNG file that contains color information as the various film presets react to colors in a similar way that their namesake films did. Without that information there are characteristic contrast curve and grain settings that will come into play but not the color response. So when I ran all of the settings it was to see just how different these looked and while there are subtle variations... they do not approach those seen with color files.

Marc has made the very important distinction that the beauty of SE Pro 2 for the MM is that there are many curve, grain and local contrast elements one can evoke in the development of the file...irrespective of the film presets. The additional toning with Platinum, Coffee, Paladium, Selenium and Duo tones offers some additional value. However, the idea that you accept a canned JPG profile in camera seems a bit simplistic, considering the core groups assumed sophistication.

Essentially I think it is a valuable addition but would love to see it further enhanced with a series of settings like those found in Color Efex and Viveza 2 in addition to Sharpener Pro 3...albeit for BW.

Bob

 

[Brian S]

Regarding the question of how similar an image will come out taken by an M9 and M9M: it is scene dependant. The worst case, moire. The image from the M9 color will have artifacts introduced by the Mosaic filter. These will carry over into the converted monochrome image. The M9M will not have these artifacts in them. The 2x2 bayer pattern mosaic filter has 36LP/mm resolution. The KAF-18500 has 72LP/mm resolution. Basically, any feature in the color image that requires more than 36LP/mm to resolve might introduce artifacts into the converted image that will not be present in the M9M image.

If you used a run of the mill Jupiter-3 wide-open to photograph both scenes, chances are both images will be the same as max resolution at F1.5 is 30LP/mm. Stop down to F4- resolution increases and differences will be introduced.

 

[docmoore]

What I cannot get out of my head is the new 2/50 AA. Because this seems to be a really great step forward...

After spending some 14 months with the 70 S lens on the S2 I have to agree...

It is amazing what information can be captured and just how these lenses draw especially with respect to those subtle, fine details which our senses use to define reality within the organic cohesiveness in light, texture and space. Without an AA filter and assuming all else in the chain of capture is above reproach....

The S lenses, and I assume the new 50AA, give such a sense of hyper-reality to images ... needs to be seen to appreciate how much a difference this makes.

Bob

 

[Vivek]

After spending some 14 months with the 70 S lens on the S2 I have to agree...

It is amazing what information can be captured and just how these lenses draw especially with respect to those subtle, fine details which our senses use to define reality within the organic cohesiveness in light, texture and space. Without an AA filter and assuming all else in the chain of capture is above reproach....

The S lenses, and I assume the new 50AA, give such a sense of hyper-reality to images ... needs to be seen to appreciate how much a difference this makes.

Bob

Hi Bob,

Serious question-

Where can one see these subtleties and beauty as expressed in an image (digital post, print, etc)?

TIA!

 

[docmoore]

Vivek,

The following shows it a bit ... really need to see the prints.

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/384770-post1328.html

Not BW however....I shot this about 30 minutes prior to daylight and the level of definition and lack of CA in the tree branches is revealing to me.
Most of all was the subtle shift of tones near and through the mist amongst the trees.

Not to say only Leica...many apo teles and surely most of my Rodenstock and Schneider lenses on Alpa had similar characteristics. Those required a bit more
setup and were not in as compact of a package as the 50AA will be. Hope it lives up to the other Karbe lenses....

Run the Show Us Your S2 Shots thread...there are some great examples within it.

Back to topic?

Bob

 

[D&A]

Not Marc and would be interested in his take but here is mine...after running a number of different present film emulsion settings on one Monochrom file and striving to keep everything the same there is a change in how that file looked.

However, having used SE Pro 2 and its predecessor to handle many color files I have the sense that the tonal aspects of the film presets will have a major difference when presented a DNG file that contains color information as the various film presets react to colors in a similar way that their namesake films did. Without that information there are characteristic contrast curve and grain settings that will come into play but not the color response. So when I ran all of the settings it was to see just how different these looked and while there are subtle variations... they do not approach those seen with color files.

Marc has made the very important distinction that the beauty of SE Pro 2 for the MM is that there are many curve, grain and local contrast elements one can evoke in the development of the file...irrespective of the film presets. The additional toning with Platinum, Coffee, Paladium, Selenium and Duo tones offers some additional value. However, the idea that you accept a canned JPG profile in camera seems a bit simplistic, considering the core groups assumed sophistication.

Essentially I think it is a valuable addition but would love to see it further enhanced with a series of settings like those found in Color Efex and Viveza 2 in addition to Sharpener Pro 3...albeit for BW.

Bob

Thanks, quite interesting. I've been trying on my end to answer the same questions I posed to Marc (and yourself & others) in my post above.

It may not have been economically feasible, but I wonder "what if" Leica had Nik work on a special version of Nikon Sliver Efex that was only for use with and dedicated to M9M B&W files. It would be specifically written for and be able to take advantage of the unique properties of files from the M9M camera and thus color files converted to B&W with Nik vs. similar subject B&W files from the M9M processed through Nik, would show more of a difference than both using the same standard Nik Silver Efx program?

Dave (D&A)

 

[D&A]

After spending some 14 months with the 70 S lens on the S2 I have to agree...

It is amazing what information can be captured and just how these lenses draw especially with respect to those subtle, fine details which our senses use to define reality within the organic cohesiveness in light, texture and space. Without an AA filter and assuming all else in the chain of capture is above reproach....

The S lenses, and I assume the new 50AA, give such a sense of hyper-reality to images ... needs to be seen to appreciate how much a difference this makes.

Bob

Question: I realize there are of course developmental costs, but since the M lens user base is substantially larger than the S2 user base, along with S lenses being more sophisticated with AF, internal chip, large glass etc., I wondered why the new 50mm AA is generally speaking, so much more expensive than some of the S2 lenses. One maybe can argue that getting to this level of performance in a small rangefinder lens, is more expensive? Hard to know.

Dave (D&A)

 

[Hosermage]

"what if" Leica had Nik work on a special version of Nikon Sliver Efex that was only for use with and dedicated to M9M B&W files.

I did read that they had to create/agree on a new monochrome DNG file that will work for MM and perhaps other cameras in the future? So, if the SE software process on that new file format, then it's similar to what you suggested?

 

[D&A]

I did read that they had to create/agree on a new monochrome DNG file that will work for MM and perhaps other cameras in the future? So, if the SE software process on that new file format, then it's similar to what you suggested?

Interesting, thanks David. I did know about the new momochrome DNG, but didn't know as to whether Nik had to be modified in some way to work to ultinately work on these files. Even if so, it still hard to know if Nik's processing of a given file (with a specific Nik setting) is somehow different with the M9M files vs. the standard M9?

Dave (D&A)

 

[jonoslack]

What I cannot get out of my head is the new 2/50 AA.

Hi Peter
I assure you - if you've had one on your camera . . . even for an hour . . . it's even worse - it haunts my dreams!

 

[jonoslack]

Question: I realize there are of course developmental costs, but since the M lens user base is substantially larger than the S2 user base, along with S lenses being more sophisticated with AF, internal chip, large glass etc., I wondered why the new 50mm AA is generally speaking, so much more expensive than some of the S2 lenses. One maybe can argue that getting to this level of performance in a small rangefinder lens, is more expensive? Hard to know.

Dave (D&A)

Have you seen the Peter Karbe vimeo film?
16 years in development - specially designed glass - I think it's easy to understand.

all the best

 

[dougpeterson]

Wow. Sometimes I forget how lucky we are on GetDPI to have more-often-than-not civilized conversations with differences-in-tastes taken into consideration and appreciation for when someone puts information out into the community.

Reading through the immature, unappreciative, dismissive banter on Range Finder Forum nearly made me sick to my stomach.

GetDPI may have ties to "Dante's Inferno". But RFF is truly a descent into hell.

 

[MCTuomey]

what doug said - the air is so much clearer here than at RFF or FM.

 

[Hosermage]

Thanks Jono for the heads up, I didn't know the video existed and just watched it.

Just some personal thoughts.. which is very likely completely wrong, so I'll disclaim it first Peter Karbe strikes me as someone who's only interests is in the tech/optics side of the business and wouldn't care much as to how the lens is marketed or priced. To him, he simply want to build a better lens than what's already out there.

After a few days of digestion, I think I now have a different view of the MM and the APO Summicron. If we think of the levels of equipments as a ladder, then naturally each person should climb and pick the equipment best fit for their own level. IMO, Leica is simply extending the ladder here. If you use M9P, shoot BW only, and find it to be limiting sometimes, here is hopefully a better tool to extend the limitations, at a similar price. If you feel the "need" for an APO 50mm that can act like an Summilux given the increase in ISO sensitivity, here you go.

People who don't feel limited by their equipments simply has no need for these gears so no point in complaining about the price or functions. Increments of technology at the high level will likely be small and expensive, so people who wants it will probably find a way to justify it. It's just not realistic to think that Leica should build it and price it so everyone should and could buy one. Since I'm already over-reaching my ladder by getting a M9, I simply applaud them for expanding the range of what's possible, should I need it in the future.

 

[Vivek]

If we think of the levels of equipments as a ladder, then naturally each person should climb and pick the equipment best fit for their own level. IMO, Leica is simply extending the ladder here. If you use M9P, shoot BW only, and find it to be limiting sometimes, here is hopefully a better tool to extend the limitations, at a similar price.

David (or anyone else), Since your post revolves around tech/opt (technology/optical) issues, let me pose this question-

What does APO stand for and why would it be relevant for monochromatic captures?

 

[Hosermage]

Well, I don't think the lens was built for this particular camera/sensor only. I've read so much that I don't remember where all the information comes from anymore... but someone did said that this lens is paired with this camera because of the new resolution the sensor is capable and it'll really show off in the image. If it's inception was really from 16 years ago, I would guess that APO was an added bonus of the design, and perhaps useful when M10 is released in later months.

edit: doh, it was from the video... "This lens will of course only reach peak performance in conjunction with the M9 Monochrome because it has the resolution, and the entire imaging chain is so lossless, that it's only then that the performance of the lens comes across."

 

[Paratom]

Question: I realize there are of course developmental costs, but since the M lens user base is substantially larger than the S2 user base, along with S lenses being more sophisticated with AF, internal chip, large glass etc., I wondered why the new 50mm AA is generally speaking, so much more expensive than some of the S2 lenses. One maybe can argue that getting to this level of performance in a small rangefinder lens, is more expensive? Hard to know.

Dave (D&A)

Just a guess- but somewhere I read comment from Leica that one factor which makes the designs of M-glass more demanding is the size limitations - which do not exist for the s-glass.

For my part - I have doubts that there can be enough IQ advantage in the new 50 asph Summicron over existing 50mm lenses to convince ME to spend this amount of money, even I have no doubt that it will be the best 50mm lens. I have the feeling that for "absolute" IQ I would rather use MF (in my case S2), and that for using the M9 I am pretty happy with the IQ I can get from a 50 Summilux or Summarit. And for that amount of money I rather like to have the "special effects" of the Noctilux.

But ....maybe I will change my mind after having seen the first images with this lens. And I have to say I do like that Leica is brave enough to present a lens like this.

 

[D&A]

Thanks Jono for the heads up, I didn't know the video existed and just watched it.

Just some personal thoughts.. which is very likely completely wrong, so I'll disclaim it first Peter Karbe strikes me as someone who's only interests is in the tech/optics side of the business and wouldn't care much as to how the lens is marketed or priced. To him, he simply want to build a better lens than what's already out there.

Yes, I echo David's appreciation to Jono for mentioning the video and some of David's thoughts regarding Peter Karbe. His tech/optics approach seems to extend to optical perfection. Maybe one of the reasons I believe he thinks so highly of the 75mm Cron and not the 75mm Lux and I believe he may have even addressed this very point in the past. It's just an assumption on my part but he doesn't particulary favor Madler designs. I think both have their place and both are important!

In that sense it's a very good thing but in another, I think he's missing part of a Leica user segment that likes and looks for character in their lenses. Whether this "character" or "look" is caused by intentional lens design or by happenstance, due to aberrations, isn't the point of my comments. The technical perfect optics are ideal for most S2 users, as the majority of them aren't using it for street photography, although for portrait work, I can see some character injected into a particuclar S2 lens, could be a desirable feature.

With regards to the M system, character (or the way a lens "draws") is a big plus for some. A higher resolution M10 may indeed require lenses like the new 50mm APO to take advantage of its new sensor, yet many cannot get away from the fact that the M body is simply used as a vehicle to choose their canvas brush (the lens) to paint their picture. Many have felt recent Leica lens releases have been "near" technically perfect but that perfection has come with a price...namely loss of character. I've heard it from many. Even the amazing 35mm Lux asph FLE has its distractors, due to the sometimes less than pleasing bokeh thats can be provoked in some situations when shooting with that lens.

I think Leica is missing a wonderful opportunity by not designing a line of M lenses that focus on the way a lens draws, or maybe a line of lenses with specific designed character in mind, and advertises these as such. Doesn't mean they can't have their technically perfect lenses, but if that's the only direction they will take, I feel sooner then later, the resulting images their cameras produce are all going to look similar. It's not unlike what Nikon has done with many of their recent f1.4 glass or Zeiss 35mm SLR lenses. The look of each respective line of lenses look very similar except for focal length...but thats OK, since they often are used for styles of photography different than M systems users. As soome have hinted about....with lenses like the new 50mm AA and a higher resolution M10...we'll have essentually a mini S2 (or S3) and except for file sizes, images from both will all look the same? I think some M users would like that but an equal number wouldn't.

What does this all have to do with the M9M camera we're discussing in this thread? It has to do with the lens choices used with the M9M. I believe those into 35mm B&W photography (film or digital) are more than most, concerned with the "look" of many of their images they capture, as much as ultimate edge to edge sharpness and resolving power. Although many legacy lenses are available, I think a line of new lenses designed to perform well on a digital rangefinder in terms of low CA etc., but concentrating on their design to have an identifiable signature, so that the way it "draws" and the ultimate character of the image it takes...may be very desirable lenses to extend the already noted advantages of shooting B&W with the M9M.

 

[Hosermage]

So I guess I had it backward... it's not the lens that show off the sensor, it's more like the sensor is showing off the lens' resolution. Yay... no need to buy this with an M9! Kind of scary... does this mean when the M10 arrives with undoubtedly higher resolution, we can expect a rework of all the lenses at $5000 above their current price?

 

[Paratom]

Yes, I echo David's appreciation to Jono for mentioning the video and some of David's thoughts regarding Peter Karbe. His tech/optics approach seems to extend to optical perfection. Maybe one of the reasons I believe he thinks so highly of the 75mm Cron and not the 75mm Lux and I believe he may have even addressed this very point in the past. It's just an assumption on my part but he doesn't particulary favor Madler designs. I think both have their place and both are important!

In that sense it's a very good thing but in another, I think he's missing part of a Leica user segment that likes and looks for character in their lenses. Whether this "character" or "look" is caused by intentional lens design or by happenstance, due to aberrations, isn't the point of my comments. The technical perfect optics are ideal for most S2 users, as the majority of them aren't using it for street photography, although for portrait work, I can see some character injected into a particuclar S2 lens, could be a desirable feature.

With regards to the M system, character (or the way a lens "draws") is a big plus for some. A higher resolution M10 may indeed require lenses like the new 50mm APO to take advantage of its new sensor, yet many cannot get away from the fact that the M body is simply used as a vehicle to choose their canvas brush (the lens) to paint their picture. Many have felt recent Leica lens releases have been "near" technically perfect but that perfection has come with a price...namely loss of character. I've heard it from many. Even the amazing 35mm Lux asph FLE has its distractors, due to the sometimes less than pleasing bokeh thats can be provoked in some situations when shooting with that lens.

I think Leica is missing a wonderful opportunity by not designing a line of M lenses that focus on the way a lens draws, or maybe a line of lenses with specific designed character in mind, and advertises these as such. Doesn't mean they can't have their technically perfect lenses, but if that's the only direction they will take, I feel sooner then later, the resulting images their cameras produce are all going to look similar. It's not unlike what Nikon has done with many of their recent f1.4 glass or Zeiss 35mm SLR lenses. The look of each respective line of lenses look very similar except for focal length...but thats OK, since they often are used for styles of photography different than M systems users.

What does this all have to do with the M9M camera we're discussing in this thread? It has to do with the lens choice used with the M9M and I believe those into 35mm B&W photography (film or digital) are more than most concerned with the "look" of many of their images as much as ultimate edge to edge sharpness and resolving power. Although many legacy lenses are available, I think of lenses designed to perform well on a digital rangefinder in terms of low CA etc., but focusing on the way it "draws" and the ultimate character of the image it takes...may be very desirable lenses to extend the advantages specifically of the M9M.

If I compare Leica lenses, and I include the new designs, to other brand lenses I believe like puts a lot of effort in how their lenses draw.
Look at 50 mm: The Summarit with a more classical drawing, the Summilux with a very warm, smooth, "alive" drawing, the Noctilux with a special drawing wide open. And now the new Summicron with (my guess) a ore neutral high resoltion drawing. What else can one wish?

Plus you have the option to usee alll kinds of old glass, Zeiss glass, CV glass etc etc.

I also can not see how the S-lenses would not have any character, just because they offer high resolution.