On the Subject of Thick Skin

[dhsimmonds]

Oh it's even more fun when mom says "that part is blurry" and you have to say "yes, mom I did that on purpose" :facesmack:

That rings frequent bells with me as my number one critic ('er indoors who must be obeyed) often say's just that! I have to say at other times her critique is spot on though.

As photographer's we can be so engrossed with making a picture that we sometimes just don't "see" the glaringly obvious.

 

[JohnW]

Good topic, Kurt. Thanks.

I think we need to separate criticism of gear and criticism of work. The first, I think we'd all agree, is silly and can be dismissed outright.

Criticism of work is trickier. We all want to improve, after all. That requires a certain humility and openness to how others perceive our work. The hard part is to filter through the thoughtless reactions and find the considered, intelligent ones.

I think we need to take it all to heart, give it honest reflection, but then accept or reject based on our internal values and goals as photographers. That's where internal honesty and self-confidence are important. Ultimately, I think those are the only measures we have of quality. Someone, somewhere, will always dislike your work. Frank was scorned when he released The Americans, and some criticize HCB as being dry and passionless.

A more interesting reaction to our work, I think, is indifference. Pictures that really move me get a ho-hum response. I get that sometimes and am never sure what to make of it.

I agree with critic Bill Jay, who says it's foolish to judge any one photograph. You really need to look at a body of work. Without that you're missing the most important part of art criticism--who is the artist and what are his/her intentions. You can't get that from one picture/painting/poem/etc.

Unfortunately, the Internet doesn't work that way. Single pictures with the wow factor rise to the top. There seems to be little place for subtlety or a comprehensive view. In both of these ways--a single-image focus and competing with thousands of images that get a few second look--the web might be among the poorest places to look for useful evaluation.

John

 

[Andrew Gough]

Personally, I look at photography as a journey. It is part of my life and therefore something that I value. I consider it a tool to lead me into adventure, relationships with other individuals, and above all fun. Several times over the years it has stopped being fun, either because I turned it into work, or I got sidetracked by a gear related thingy...

I have found that many people participate in photography for all kinds of reasons, some like the technical aspect, some the artistic, for some it is just a release from a stressful day. The problem with the internet as medium is that it tends to allow for the polarization of like views. This, initially, was not bad, because all types of photographers came together, but now we have distinctions and the opinions that go with that. For better or for worse, it will not change - for the majority.

Prior to being a Leica shooter, I too wondered what did people see in such a system. I felt that mirrorless was "the way". But what I found as a new Leica shooter is that there is no "the way", only what you prefer. For me moving to Leica was like having an illicit affair on Canon, it was fun again, it forced me to shoot in a completely different way, and ultimately, to see the world in a different way - photographically speaking.

In retrospect, unless you have tried a Leica, and I mean tried, because it is a learning curve, then you will not get it. For some, price is a barrier to entry and therefore they are excluded against their will. For others, they have different agenda's. The only part that I will never understand is the need to belittle another photographers equipment choice. But, for me, its about the photograph and not how it was acquired...

 

[fotografz]

IMO, critiques are for expanding horizons. You don't need thick skin for that.

If it doesn't expand horizons, it's useless.

As a Creative Director, I had to critique work daily. If I had to reject work it was in order to get the creative person(s) to be more of what they were capable of being. Frankly, I was never disappointed. However, it does require that you get to know the person involved ... so Roger's little story resonates with me ... the reviewer cancelled the "production line" reviews and took the time to sit and get to know Roger. :thumbup:

The internet has become a huge refrigerator for people to place their pics for a million "Moms" to praise, and when it doesn't happen, the photographer is crushed or lashes out. It's tough to have a thick skin when those deep-seated triggers are present.

I mentioned this on another thread but it is more appropriate here ... how one reacts to, or is interested in, the opinions of others is colored by their past experiences and their creative environment.

In answer to a photo friend quizzing me as to why I didn't take his positive accolades with overt enthusiasm, I was force to confront the fact that we come from a "culturally" different creative world and backgrounds. I spent a lifetime surround by talented people ... to be talented was the norm, not the exception. Nothing special, just like everyone else. From special art ed, to art school, to a long creative career working with people just like me, or a lot better than me. Those better than me were the ones that expanded my horizons.

As too gear debates ... they are just goofy fun. We debate with passion, and some get nasty ... but very little comes of it and most go on the way they were before ... all the howling and gnashing of teeth over some lens, or how many pixels can sit on the head of a pin fades out as the next one erupts.

-Marc

 

[jonoslack]

Interesting thread
My mother didn't think that photography was worth a jot (mine included) - although she was rather good at it herself!

There's two types of criticism:
1. criticism of your work
2. criticism of you via your work.

The first type is generally useful, and you shouldn't need a thick skin for that (I agree Marc).

I've been the recipient of some fairly vitriolic versions of the 2nd type recently, notably on the RFF forum - I'd like to say that it just washes over me . . . . (because of course it should), but I must say - I don't find it very comfortable!

 

[Braeside]

There was an excellent article by Alain Briot on the subject of Criticism on LL quite recently. Well worth a read.

 

[ptomsu]

Constructive criticism is always helpful, although not always easy to take. I recently had such a session with a good friend of mine and she was giving me really hard time, but after thinking over her arguments I found that in 90% she was right. And we stayed good friends BTW

Criticism for just arguing one personal view and decisions is useless, destructive and should not happen - really frustrating. But sometimes - depending on the mood - it is hard not to fall into that. So end of the day I still understand (most times) this type of criticism.

 

[rayyan]

....but I must say - I don't find it very comfortable!

Jono, not many of us would find it comfortable.

There is more to being a good photographer than technique and vision. It is
humility and courtesy as a human being.

It takes courage to post one's images for others to see, experiment with, question and quite often be subject to unjustified criticism of the work and oneself.

But it takes much greater courage to respond to such vitriol with courtesy and politeness. You did it very well.

My best wishes.

 

[Brian S]

Interesting thread
My mother didn't think that photography was worth a jot (mine included) - although she was rather good at it herself!

Well, at least we know where a lot of your talent comes from.

I've been the recipient of some fairly vitriolic versions of the 2nd type recently, notably on the RFF forum - I'd like to say that it just washes over me . . . . (because of course it should), but I must say - I don't find it very comfortable!

I'm sorry to hear that. I would suggest sending a PM to the Moderators. Your preview of the M9M has been first-rate, and shows what the camera can do in the right hands. I cannot understand why so many feel threatened by this camera, and are obviously unleashing their fear on you.

I've used the Internet since 1980. Fair share of "flame-wars", usually I try to stay with technical discussions. I have my achilles heel on some subjects, and have gotten drawn into some battles. No fun, can ruin a forum if they go too far.

 

[seakayaker]

Not to sure about thick skin.

In my younger version of myself I certainly acted as if nothing anyone said or did could bother me. Along with that would be moments of grandiose thoughts when being complimented or having the ego swing 180 degrees if a negative comment was mentioned. Today I attempt and have some success with taking an approach based on humility and learning to be comfortable with myself.

As far as posting work in public or the internet one has to reach a level of confidence and be comfortable with any and all feedback. Over time I have found and learned to trust the comments/advise of individuals who have known me over a period of time, certainly to put more weight on their feedback. I also try to thank people for taking the time to provide feedback, positive or negative, and work on the advice that I find to be important and to let go of the rest. In the past I found I carried a lot of other peoples opinions with me and could reach a mental gridlock.

With that said in another forum there was a thread regarding creative confidence to which I added the following comment. "Mike I certainly share your pain when the dark clouds roll in along with doubt causing good feelings and inspiration to disappear. It is easy to have momments where I can be consummed by fear of what others may think of my work. I had a moment a few weeks ago where I mentioned to David that I was not going to show my photographs, certainly a moment of doubt, confusion, and fear. I know it happens to us all."

So I still recognize that there can be moments in time where irrational thoughts can creep in and cause doubt as well as times when I may be a bit over confident.

Recently watched this short video (11:47) regarding 'Creative Confidence' by David Kelly at a TED (Technology, Entertainment, Design) conference which I found to be worthwhile.

David Kelley: How to build your creative confidence | Video on TED.com

 

[GMB]

Great question, Kurt, and very interesting responses everyone.

Actually, I find that I am not getting enough (constructive) criticism. It seems that either folks praise what you post or say nothing. I would wish more honest criticism of my work as I am sure that would help me to improve.

For example, in my early days with digital, one of the 50,000+ posters on LUF, who normally states that everything is great, suggested that I get more punch in my shots by using curves etc. and played with the shot that I had posted I found that very helpful indeed.

However, criticism this seems to be a difficult topic. I participated in a group exhibition last year and was disappointed that the group discussions focused mostly on how much wine one needs for the opening (nothing wrong with that) and no discussion on the works. The guy who organized the event, however, said that he had very bad experiences with these types of discussions and two participants, whose work was not quite up to standard initially, had taken his suggestions very badly (and he was a very nice and polite guy).

 

[ohnri]

Giving the right critical comment at the right time may propell an artist to new heights.

However, the timing and content of this type of helpful critique is rather difficult to judge.

Also, the artist that seeks too much critical feedback too early in a project will often fail as the avalanche of advice from a committee of onlookers destroys his or her singular vision and confidence.

Thus, the timing of seeking out critical advice is also tricky. And knowing who to ask is even harder, and is one of the most important things every artist needs to learn.

To summarize, looking for truely useful critical feedback from nearly anonymous internet forums is time better spent doing anything else. Really, anything ... washing your hair, doing laundry ... anything.

But, directed browsing on the internet can provide inspiration so one can justify time spent that way.

-Bill

The M9 ... is it Leica's best cage fighting camera ever? Or is the MM better?
We may never know.

April 2012 – Bill Fulcher |

 

[fotografz]

Giving the right critical comment at the right time may propell an artist to new heights.

However, the timing and content of this type of helpful critique is rather difficult to judge.

Also, the artist that seeks too much critical feedback too early in a project will often fail as the avalanche of advice from a committee of onlookers destroys his or her singular vision and confidence.

Thus, the timing of seeking out critical advice is also tricky. And knowing who to ask is even harder, and is one of the most important things every artist needs to learn.

To summarize, looking for truely useful critical feedback from nearly anonymous internet forums is time better spent doing anything else. Really, anything ... washing your hair, doing laundry ... anything.

But, directed browsing on the internet can provide inspiration so one can justify time spent that way.

-Bill

The M9 ... is it Leica's best cage fighting camera ever? Or is the MM better?
We may never know.

April 2012 – Bill Fulcher |

Bill, I think you make some good points.

Your one comment regarding the idea of to many chefs in the kitchen to early, reminds me of the old saying ... "A Camel is a Race Horse designed by a committee".

It may be that there are different categories of "feedback" to consider. Casual critique where the photographer seeks "self-selectable" advice, as well as their place amongst their peers with-in any given venue ... be it a camera club, or an internet forum. Basically, a sort of "Adhocracy". This tends to be as social as it is artistic.

The other is the more serious seeking of directional critique from a specific and hand picked source that is usually not a public affair ... like Roger's one-on-one example above. I have a sort of mentor in NYC that I turn to for critique ... an occasional face to face discussion of my work, and photography in general.

Another form of critique can come from close friends with different talents to share. I have that sort of relationship with my friend Irakly ... he has certain talents and critiques that help form certain directions, and I provide the same in return.

-Marc

 

[rayyan]

... reminds me of the old saying ... "A Camel is a Race Horse designed by a committee".

...

-Marc

Some, like me, whose life has often depended/depends on the camel, would think otherwise. We thank the ' race horse ' in the desert. Talking about race horses..that is another subject of course.

Committees from say Martha's Vineyard know little or nothing about designing camels. Different requirements and experiences.

Nomad from the Rub Al-Khali.( The Empty Quarter ).

 

[fotografz]

Some, like me, whose life has often depended/depends on the camel, would think otherwise. We thank the ' race horse ' in the desert. Talking about race horses..that is another subject of course.

Committees from say Martha's Vineyard know little or nothing about designing camels. Different requirements and experiences.

Nomad from the Rub Al-Khali.( The Empty Quarter ).

Too much over-thinking?

The notion is that the objective was a race horse, and the committee ends up with a camel.

Maybe the same committee would set out to design a camel and end up with a race horse?

Brings new meaning to " Horses for Courses" :ROTFL:

-Marc

 

[Woody Campbell]

I shoot obsessively. Where doesn't matter to me. That's an overstatement. What I mean is that where is not a primary concern.

No one has ever accosted me about the camera I'm carrying (although the Alpa Max on a tripod does attract respectful curiosity). I don't take part in nasty food fights on Digital Camera News and Reviews and the like, nor am I interested in them. (The same way that I didn't particularly like "The Fight Club".) It's not exactly porn, but related.

I've tried many, many different cameras but return to my Leica (and MF). I'm just putting a day's worth of stuff in a bag as I prepare to go out into the world; I pause; I toss my M9 with a lens and a battery into the bag. Marc's allowed to say "I told you so" in observing for example in another thread that a Nex-7 isn't a Leica.

This could be because my first real cameras were an M3 and a Rollei 2.8F. I couldn't afford these cameras when I bought them used (I was a young 2nd Lieutenant in Marine Corps) but I did. Still the same deal.

I look for criticism and accept in the spirit in which it's offered. Tough is better than "nicely seen Woody". It takes taste, conviction and communications skill to be a good critic.

Thanks, Kurt, for starting this thread.

 

[rayyan]

Too much over-thinking?

The notion is that the objective was a race horse, and the committee ends up with a camel.

Maybe the same committee would set out to design a camel and end up with a race horse?

Brings new meaning to " Horses for Courses" :ROTFL:

-Marc

Maybe no thinking? Rather than over thinking.

Nothing to do with a committee per se, but its composition. Maybe they went to the wrong schools!
It sometimes is difficult for committee members to understand the objective.

' Horses for courses '; but ' Camels for the Desert '.:ROTFL:

 

[Shashin]

I think if you are going to be an artist, it does not matter what folks say--talk is cheap anyway. It is tough working in a vacuum, but it is either in you or it is not. I know folks that constantly go to workshops. In fact, it is the only place they can do work, or at least meaningful work for them. These folks will not become an artist. One of the most important things to learn is to work from your own center. If your motivation comes from outside, teachers or clubs, you are most likely never going to master your medium nor even stick with it.