Nikon user considering M-system.

[Tim Gray]

In my mind, the Zeiss ZM lenses give up very little compared to the Leica lenses. The biggest thing they give up is maximum aperture and in some cases, some size. For example, if you want a 28mm lens, the Leica and Zeiss both offer wonderful 28/2.8's, but only Leica offers a 28/2 (at 4 times the retail cost of the ZM 28/2.8 and more than twice the cost of the Leica 28/2.8). Something to keep in mind.

The ZM 35/2 and 50/2 are smashing lenses. While the 35 is a bit larger than a 35 Summicron, once you add a hood to the cron you are about the same size. The ZM lenses in general don't need hoods as often as the Leica lenses.

That being said, the Leica 50/1.4 ASPH and the 75/2 ASPH are untouchable (and expensive).

I also don't want to slight the CV lenses. They make some wonderful lenses and some of them are real bargains. The 15mm is not to be missed and the 28/3.5 seems to be universally loved. The 50/1.5 gets great reviews, as does 35/1.2. My advice would be to select one or two 'bread and butter' focal lengths and buy Leica or Zeiss (depending on your tastes) and fill out other focal lengths with CV.

All this is nice, but my question would be, do you really want a rangefinder system if you primarily shoot telephoto? It's not really the system's strength. I like RF's but then again, the longest lens I've ever owned was 100mm lens, I only used it for macro, and I sold it about 2 years ago. I do plan on getting a 135/2 for my Canon SLR at some point, but it's lower on the priority list than some other things. I like wide to normal a lot more than telephoto...

 

[jonoslack]

Sorry, but I believe it's the shooter not the camera that gets "noticed." Lots of pretty great candid work being done with something other than a M camera. I suppose it depends on how quick and cool you are

Ah well - we all know how quick and cool you are Marc (and if we didn't, your shot would prove it) but it was unkind to point out to every one that I'm not (which of course is true).

I didn't say you couldn't use an SLR (rather the opposite I thought), and your halloween shot is a good example of one where the D3 is a better bet. On the other hand, over here, shooting in the street with an SLR is likely to get you hassled by the police - not to mentioned being collared by parents of children (or scantily clad girls) . . . but not with an M . . . That also goes for getting into concerts - you just get refused when they check your back and there's an slr in there, the M gets ignored.

 

[glenerrolrd]

I had a chance this summer to test both alternatives ..street shooting in NYC. Without a doubt your body language and shooting techniques are the first thing that gives you away. I know it is possible to do great work with either an M or a D700/D3 . However each has its advantages and disadvantages:

1. The M s are much less visable and you can get away with shooting much closer. I do a lot of prefocusing and setting up shots ...rather than point and shoot......"the set the stage technique" ..great location ,great light....wait for the moment.

2. The Nikon D700/D3 shout photographer....I had people give me dirty looks when I just looked at them. If you work it ..you can still get great stuff but its much less discrete. I have two friends that are professional journalists ..both use D3 s and can walk right up and get natural photographs. I have studied their techniques and clearly the photographers approach and skill make a hugh difference.

3. The high ISO capability of the d700/d3 is the big advantage ....night shooting in NYC is pretty darn amazing and the auto ISO capabilities going up to 6400 work great. And of course at night its not as visable as the M8. I do like the M8 with the Noctilux or the summiluxes at 640 which is just enough at dusk ..but not enough after dark.

These were my findings using the M8 s for week (1500 images ) and then the D3/d300 s for another week (1000). Both had enough time to get really comfortable with the equipment . Even with the advantages of the D cameras ...I much prefer the M s for street work. But then I am not selling my D3 either.

 

[fotografz]

I had a chance this summer to test both alternatives ..street shooting in NYC. Without a doubt your body language and shooting techniques are the first thing that gives you away. I know it is possible to do great work with either an M or a D700/D3 . However each has its advantages and disadvantages:

1. The M s are much less visible and you can get away with shooting much closer. I do a lot of prefocusing and setting up shots ...rather than point and shoot......"the set the stage technique" ..great location ,great light....wait for the moment.

2. The Nikon D700/D3 shout photographer....I had people give me dirty looks when I just looked at them. If you work it ..you can still get great stuff but its much less discrete. I have two friends that are professional journalists ..both use D3 s and can walk right up and get natural photographs. I have studied their techniques and clearly the photographers approach and skill make a hugh difference.

3. The high ISO capability of the d700/d3 is the big advantage ....night shooting in NYC is pretty darn amazing and the auto ISO capabilities going up to 6400 work great. And of course at night its not as visible as the M8. I do like the M8 with the Noctilux or the summiluxes at 640 which is just enough at dusk ..but not enough after dark.

These were my findings using the M8 s for week (1500 images ) and then the D3/d300 s for another week (1000). Both had enough time to get really comfortable with the equipment . Even with the advantages of the D cameras ...I much prefer the M s for street work. But then I am not selling my D3 either.

Big difference between the D3 and a D700. Even if they see you, one screams pro and the other looks like every other person in the crowd with a ubiquitous Canon D Rebel. Times have changed ... more people with DSLR cameras everywhere you go.

Not knocking the M which I find excellent @ ISO 640 ... have one, and a fortune in fast glass. But man, how liberating to be able to shoot a black cat in a coal mine at midnight :ROTFL:

Point is, I knew I'd be in NYC in October ... easy choice of cameras ... F6 and B&W film during the day ... D700 and high ISO at night. A couple of lenses to fit both.

I also agree with waiting for the moment. People may be on guard at first, but that fades quickly, and it doesn't matter what camera is dangling at your side.

 

[fotografz]

Yep, there's definately a place for the M ... which is why I keep mine. It's just getting less use than before ... but I DO use it.

 

[Jason Muelver]

This has been a fantastic thread to read. I have always lusted after an M body Leica and I think my path has been very similar to a lot of yours out there.

Some of my best work is from travel and street photography. I have taken a D200 to Namibia and Tunisia for example. Tunisia was a little tricky as I shot blind in the streets with the camera about my waist. Shots like this...

In February, we are going to Cambodia and Laos. I'm thinking an M8 would be a perfect companion to my D700 (which I adore!). I shoot a lot with the 50 1.4, so I'm thinking an M8 w/ a 35 of some sort. This will be my trial run with an M body. I'm trying to get up to speed on the lenses, but I'm sooooo faaaaaaaar behind. Since I want to do a lot of street and people shots while I'm there, I'm thinking the M will fit the bill nicely.

Also open to any opinions, and in resurrecting this thread, more comments from those who have recently transitioned from dSLR's into the M world.

Thanks a lot and this is a wonderful forum!

 

[woodyspedden]

Yep, there's definately a place for the M ... which is why I keep mine. It's just getting less use than before ... but I DO use it.

Marc

I am confused. I thought, based on some of your previous posts, that you had purchased an M9 and were raving about it for your wedding work.

Did I have one too many martinis? LOL

Woody

 

[Ocean]

Marc

I am confused. I thought, based on some of your previous posts, that you had purchased an M9 and were raving about it for your wedding work.

Did I have one too many martinis? LOL

Woody

Woody,

I was confused by Marc's post when I first read it today. But this is actually an old thread. Most of these comments were more than a year old. Meanwhile, Marc has moved on to Sony A900 and Leica M9... This shows how fast things change in 'digital age.'

Kind regards,

 

[glenerrolrd]

Marc

I am confused. I thought, based on some of your previous posts, that you had purchased an M9 and were raving about it for your wedding work.

Did I have one too many martinis? LOL

Woody

No Woody you just missed the dates ..the posts were last years "best practices". Marc has M9 s now which are good to ISO 1000 and with fast glass open up the night shooting. He sold his Nikons and Zeiss ZF glass ...much of it to me.

As a maybe interesting follow up. I have a complete set of Zeiss ZF glass and a D700/D3X . In Oct 2009 ....I took a workshop with MAGNUM in NYC focused on street shooting . On the last day I repeated my test of street worthness (will people notice).

In the morning I went out shooting the Nikon D700 and the Zeiss 35/2 and the 85/1.4. I shot 90% with the 35/2. I shot in Greenwich Village around Washington Square. Since I was working with manual lens..I used a mixture of prefocus,hyperfocus and of course manual focus thru the finder. I tried to make it exactly like I use the M on the street. It was raining ..sometimes hard....great distraction. THE NIKON WAS EASILY RECOGNIZED....even when I held the camera on my lap ..people picked up on it.

Later in the day I used the M9 with the Noctilux. Obviously a different look but on the street I wasn t noticed nearly as much.

My PJ buddies have the same experience....they can make the Nikon s work and they do as required ....but the camera they all want for street is the M9....and if they ever make the X1 with a faster lens ....they will be all over it.

Technique really matters ...but a smaller form that looks like an amateur ...helps as well.

The gear is getting very close to covering all the major requirements. Better ISO , fast wide primes .

 

[Ocean]

...

I shot 90% with the 35/2. I shot in Greenwich Village around Washington Square. Since I was working with manual lens..I used a mixture of prefocus,hyperfocus and of course manual focus thru the finder. I tried to make it exactly like I use the M on the street. It was raining ..sometimes hard....great distraction.

...

Roger,

Were you happy with D700 and Zeiss 35/2 ZF combo for street shooting other than size and weight? I like the image quality produced by this combo very much but haven't really use this in the field much. Thank you.

Kind regards,

 

[glenerrolrd]

I like the D700/ZF 35/2 for just about everything. The D700 without the vertical grip has a small form with the zf35. I have no problem with the size and weight. The Nikon sensor produces excellent IQ up to about 1600 and you have 3200/6400 if needed.

The only issue I had with street shooting was that people recognized it as a serious camera. In fairness..this was in the area know as the Photo District...so I am sure some recognized the camera.

The M just attracts a lot less attention. Once I start shooting I could be happy with either one..but I like the M better.

 

[glenerrolrd]

This has been a fantastic thread to read. I have always lusted after an M body Leica and I think my path has been very similar to a lot of yours out there.

Some of my best work is from travel and street photography. I have taken a D200 to Namibia and Tunisia for example. Tunisia was a little tricky as I shot blind in the streets with the camera about my waist. Shots like this...

In February, we are going to Cambodia and Laos. I'm thinking an M8 would be a perfect companion to my D700 (which I adore!). I shoot a lot with the 50 1.4, so I'm thinking an M8 w/ a 35 of some sort. This will be my trial run with an M body. I'm trying to get up to speed on the lenses, but I'm sooooo faaaaaaaar behind. Since I want to do a lot of street and people shots while I'm there, I'm thinking the M will fit the bill nicely.

Also open to any opinions, and in resurrecting this thread, more comments from those who have recently transitioned from dSLR's into the M world.

Thanks a lot and this is a wonderful forum!

Jason

No one system seems to ever do everything we desire. Even within the Leica line we used to beat about the M verse the R(reflex) series.

The biggest issue I would have with the d700 and a M8 together ..is that the images would be rendered considerably differently. When you begin to edit your images you will find that they just look different. Most Leica M users will swear that you will pick all the M images over the D700. I am making an assumption here that ..you would like to either create your book or a collection of images(prints or web). This means the images frm the two cameras need to work together. (If you don t care and just are happy with a bunch of nice photos ..maybe a batch of prints then this isn t an issue).


I have both systems ..Leica M and Nikon D (FX) ....and I try to make a decision before I go on a trip . What do I need? Do I need a lens longer than 180mm FOV? (longest I can get with a Leica on an M8).

Two alternatives

1. Get an M8 and try to find two lenses.....a 21 and either a 35 or a 50. This would give you a 28mm FOV(perfect for street...you would have gotten the feet in your image with a 28FOV) and either a normal (47mmFov or short tele ..a 50mm is a 67FOV). Just take the M8 and the two lenses..get a wrist strap ..no bag . Hit the street and shoot a ton. Have enough batteries and cards. Experience the joy of Leica M street photography.


2. Put a hold on the M system and get a Zeiss ZF 28/2 lens for you D700. This is a superb lens for street . You can find them used for less than $1K . You can use the lens a lot like an M ....prefocus,hyperfocus etc. Its fast,sharp and produces great color. The ZF 85 1.4 is also a really nice lens.

The advantage of the nikon alternative is you know it and can make it sing on a nice photo rich trip.


Either one or two beats the mixed system. If you go mixed you have to go wider on the M8 because of the smaller sensor ...a 35mm lens creates a 47mmFov (1.33X). You really want a 21 or a 28mm for an M8.

 

[Jason Muelver]

Roger....

Thanks so much for the detailed reply and to everyone else for their input. This is the direction that I am thinking of taking.

D700, 50 1.4, 35-70 2.8, 70-200 VRII (inbound, don't have it yet, but will) This will be for the long shots, or when "going big" won't matter. Flipside, when going dark in very low light.

M8 w/ Zeiss 25 biogon and a second lens? Would love a faster wide, but I can't afford 3k for a lens at this point.

I have been on the fence between getting a D3X, but my heart is screaming M8 and glass so I can have a camera on me pretty much at all times.

Thanks again!!!

 

[glenerrolrd]

Roger....

Thanks so much for the detailed reply and to everyone else for their input. This is the direction that I am thinking of taking.

D700, 50 1.4, 35-70 2.8, 70-200 VRII (inbound, don't have it yet, but will) This will be for the long shots, or when "going big" won't matter. Flipside, when going dark in very low light.

M8 w/ Zeiss 25 biogon and a second lens? Would love a faster wide, but I can't afford 3k for a lens at this point.

I have been on the fence between getting a D3X, but my heart is screaming M8 and glass so I can have a camera on me pretty much at all times.

Thanks again!!!

Jason

You will have it covered with that set and its more adaptable than a D3X. You might consider the following:

1. On the M8 ..consider the 21/2.8 Zeiss(Erwin Putts calls this their perfect lens)...it also provides a 28mm FOV on an M8. If you shoot from the waist or lower ...or higher ...you will need the extra FOV to keep from cutting off hands and feet. I have this only important with street shooting. This also sets up the possibility of getting a 35mm summicron or the zeiss 35/2 . The 50 zm lenses are also special..the f2 planar being highly corrected and contrasty and the 50 1.5 sonnar has that old timeless look. The 25 is highly regarded so its definately not a mistake and if you only have one lens ..its had to argue. Read Putts and Digilloyd on the Zeiss ZM lenses.

2. On the D700 you might find a 85 1.5 ZF lens . Your images will have substantially greater contrast and color saturation than the Nikkors. A less expensive alternative is the Nikkor 85/1.8 which is suberb and small. The 85 FOV pairs nicely with the 28 to 35 FOV for street.

3. Carrying and working with two cameras ....the M8 and a 21 is your goal ....use it a lot and get close enough to have a good size subject. This give your images context. You are zone or hyperfocusing ..f5.6 . Then the D700 and the 85 are used when getting closer isn t possible .

The zeiss alternatives can be found used for less than $1000 and some as low as $600. They are easy to resell because of the price point .

You also have the advantage that the zeiss glass renders in a similar way (even if the sensors don t) and you can mix and match images while retaining the same look.