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Nikon user considering M-system.

M

Matt Cullen

Guest
Hi everyone, this is my first time posting here after browsing for the last two days, mostly in the this M forum. I'll give some background, I've pretty much always been an SLR shooter. I started using my dad's Pentax Spotmatic II, then when digital SLRs started becoming more affordable I switched to digital. I used to shoot with Canon but for the last couple of years I've been shooting with Nikon gear, mainly a D2X and F100, I recently sold my D200. I usually shoot events such as birthday parties, bar mitzvahs, receptions, as well as some sports and model work for pay. However on my one time I do mostly nature and street photography.

Now I love my Nikon system, and for wildlife and macro photography it's indispensable. On the other hand, there are plenty of times when I'm out shooting in the city and would love to have something lighter smaller, and more discreet but not at the expense of image quality. I've pretty much ruled out most point and shoot cameras due to the lack of low light performance both as a result of the small sensors and lens speeds, as well as the lack of RAW. I also prefer prime lenses to zooms, even with my SLRs, definitely a big fan of fast glass and selective focus.

When I was first considering an M-mount rangefinder I was looking at the Zeiss Ikon and ZM lenses, but after reading more and more on Leica lenses, looking and sample images, and finally actually handling and trying out an M8, there isn't much doubt in my mind that I'd prefer a Leica system. As far as lenses it seems like the 75mm FL makes the most sense to me, since my 85mm f/1.4 is on my F100 most of the time, I'm more of a telephoto guy than a wide-angle guy. Eventually I'd probably want 50 and 35mm lenses as well. Starting out I've been looking at used M7 and M6 bodies, although I'd really like an M8. With this kind of investment in lenses digital would be nice, especially if I want to use the camera for events and sell prints. However a cheaper body would also allow me to spend more on lenses initially. I'm also considering this system as an alternative to buying either a D700, or Sony a900 and Zeiss lenses as a primary walking around camera.

Any body advice, lens advice, experiences, samples.. etc would be much appreciated. My flickr page is in my sig to give you an idea of some of the things I photograph in my own time, no client work is on there. Thanks.
 

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
You should get a lot of feedback on this forums as there are many contributors that use both Nikon DSLR and M8 s. This is the short version of my POV.

1. Using a rangefinder is a highly personal decision and will depend on the type of work you hope to do, your ability to accurately focus a rangefinder and your financial resources. (Leicas are expensive). This is so important that most will recommend you find a way to borrow or rent a rangefinder camera.

2. Assuming you are still condidering a rangefinder...my POV is to go for a good used copy of the M8( street price seems to be between $3000 and $3500. The forum buy sell is a good place to find one. You can learn with film but starting with digital gives you the ability to shoot a lot and get used to the camera.

3. Some good threads on what one or two lens kits are preferred. The answer is generally a 28mm and a 50mm. These provide the a 32MM and 67MM filed of views. This is the most common range for leica images. Since the M8 has a 1.33 crop factor you will probably prefer the 50 over the 75. Its much easier to get your focus and to frame properly. You can learn to get closer.

4. Leica M lenses are very expensive ..think over $3K new . Used leica lenses are a bargin in comparison. The lenses are built like a tank and last for decades. The 28/2 summicron is generally considered the best all around wide angle..but there are many that like the 21 or the 35 because its the way they like to shoot. In the 50 s many like the pre asph 50 summilux as the best all around. But you can have a debate on any of them.

5. Zeiss zm lenses provide excellent alternatives at half the cost ..with most focal lengths around $1K. The voightlander lenses are bargins an available around $500. Read Reviews a paid website has reviewed each focal length for use on the M8 .. a good investment . Lenses don t depreciate like the digital bodies ..so you can buy and sell with most losses .. a mistake is a $1-200 error.


If you read the M threads you will find more of this discussion as well as plenty examples. As you get to the detail decisions it may be better to ask each one separately ..e.g. where to find a good used M8?


This is a great forum and you will get modestly biased input ..but nobody is really trying to sell you something . Of course I use M8s as my primary system ...so I prefer the Leica solutions.

Roger Dunham
 

bradhusick

Active member
Hi Matt,
Welcome to the forum.

I had a similar experience to yours. I started learning photography on a Pentax SLR when I was about 7 years old. I slowly graduated to more and more fancy SLRs and eventually to a Nikon D1. That was a revelation to me since I wasn't worried about film any longer. I later moved to Canon dSLRs because they got ahead in the image quality race. About 3 years ago a friend of mine insisted that I try shooting a Leica rangefinder. He loaned me his old MP. I fell in love. Why? Because I no longer had this large black weapon in between my subjects and myself. Also, I could shoot with both eyes open and see not only what was in the frame but also what was coming into and going out of the frame. I still take out my Canon dSLR from time to time, especially where I need autofocus and for sports, but 90% of my photos are on my M8s now, and I am taking the best photos of my life.

As for purchasing advice, as with SLRs, spend more on lenses than on bodies. That's not hard to do with Leicas! I suggest you get an M8 (the M8.2 is much more expensive) and start with a 50 and 90. A used 50 summicron f/2 and a 90 elmarit f/2.8 would be a good start for you. I think you'll want shorter lenses too, perhaps a 35 and a 24 would round out the kit for you.

Lastly, I do have a perfect black M8 for sale here if you're interested. No pressure here.

Welcome to the group and feel free to contact me or any of the wonderful people here in the forums for more help.

-Brad Husick

P.S. I bought and used the Nikon D700 for a week in New York City. I loved the image quality at high ISO levels, but found the camera to be too heavy to enjoy, even with light lenses on it.

P.P.S. There are a few accessories for the M8 that make handling much more comfortable. I recommend a Luigi grip case or the PhotoEquip M8 grip, plus the wonderful Thumbs-Up from Tim Isaac. They make a huge difference in being able to hold the camera with one hand. I can send you links if you like.
 
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hdrmd

New member
Get the M camera, you will love it. Keep the Nikon for long lenses. The two systems are not mutually exclusive, rather I think they work well together. I have M cameras since the M2 and Nikons since the F, and I like them both. Regards. DR
 

TRSmith

Subscriber Member
Another big thumbs up for the M8. I'm a huge fan and my Nikon has been sitting in its case since I started getting comfortable with the Leica. One of the really excellent aspects is the variety of wonderful glass available. There are some very fine distinctions that can be made and lots of freedom for your own style to emerge with the variety of lenses that fit the M8.

However, the rangefinder thing has thrown more than a few well-intentioned buyers. Find a way to see if the rangefinder method will be comfortable for you.

Best of luck!
Tim
 

jonoslack

Active member
Lots of good answers
I particularly enjoyed Roger's excellent and well reasoned response . . . . and there's Brad's nice black M8 waiting for you :)

I bought an M6 and shot film for a while, but it wasn't long before I wanted an M8 . . . it would have been easier to have gone straight there!

A slight warning about lenses, most of us have immediately spent large amounts of money on lenses, I guess we all have our favorites, and the leica glass is lovely . . .. but it doesn't need to be expensive.

My first 3 lenses were:
15mm Voigtlander
50mm Leica f2 summicron
90mm Leica f2.8 elmarit.

It was a good start, and I still own all of them, but the 90mm doesn't get much use.

I now find that I like
15mm voigtlander
25mm zeiss zm
50mm f1.5 zeiss sonnar
75mm f2 summicron

these are all relatively small lenses, and as I have a dSLR system as well, I prefer to use the leica with small lenses . . . they also aren't that expensive. I've had a noctilux, and still own a 16-18-21 tri-elmar, which is fab . . . but it's also big.

I'm not recommending my choice of lenses particularly, and in general I agree with the comment about spending money on the glass . . . . . but If you're contemplating RF, I'd grab a secondhand M8 while they are still a good deal, and get a couple of modest lenses to get the feel of things.

Unlike most SLR systems, there really aren't any BAD lenses about for the M mount (at least, I can't think of any).

I've also spent a lot of money on accessories - grips, straps etc. . . . and I've ended up abandoning all of them. The strap which comes with the camera is unromantic, but grips well on a leather jacket and is light and flexible. Hand grips may mean it 's easier to hold the camera . . . but they make the camera bigger, and you weren't really going to drop it were you?
 

Mike Hatam

Senior Subscriber Member
Matt,

I came to the M system about 18 months ago, after shooting DSLRs exclusively for 5 years. A couple of things to point out...

Shooting a range-finder is very different than shooting a DSLR. In many, many ways. Focus is obviously different, but there are several other key differences:

The M does not have the speed of a DSLR. You can't just lean on the button and get 6-8 fps. You have to be more aware of the situation unfolding, and time your shot with more precision.

After you shoot the M for a while, you'll find that you get much closer to your subjects with an M. The small body and lenses are far less intimidating, and you'll find that you can get right up to your subjects without them feeling gun-shy, like they would with a big DSLR and 70-200 lens pointed at them.

Because of this, you'll find yourself using wider lenses. A 35 or 50 on the M are very good portrait lenses. Many people use a 21 or 28 for street photography.

Since you can't instantly get perfect focus, a more typical approach to street photography is to get "approximate focus" using the distance scale, and put your attention more on the scene, and shoot it wide, just at the right moment. With the wider lenses, the DOF will cover you, and you'll get sufficient focus.

The viewfinder also is a very different experience, since you can see outside the framelines. As a result, you'll have far more attention on composition and timing your shot, and less on precise focus.

Until you master the M system, you may find that you can't get a high percentage of shots in focus with a 75 lens, in quick-shooting street type shots. That's why I'm suggesting to start with something in the 21 / 28 / 35 / 50 range, where you'll get more keepers, especially once you learn to get closer to the subject.

If you can afford it, the 28 cron (28mm f2) is a superb street lens. Very compact, very fast, and wide enough to have a pretty deep DOF, which really helps when you have to quickly raise your camera and get a shot.

If you're like me, you'll find that your shooting style will change significantly as you embrace the M. For me, it was definitely for the better. While I still use my Canon system for sports / wildlife, and high ISO (1600 or higher), I use the M8 for everything else, and absolutely love it.

Mike
 

otumay

New member
I'll keep it short:
Inexperienced amateur, new to the hobby (or should I say way of life?). For the last for years used D100, Kodak SLR/n, D2x, Fujifilm S5Pro and D300 with sixteen F-mount lenses, most of them top-of-the-line.
Then comes along a second-hand, small, black affair with a few retro-looking lenses. Not frightfully efficient in ambient light conditions, not overly easy to focus, not the most user-friendly camera I've encountered.
But my D300 and others await their turns patiently while I shoot with my M8 with reckless abandon. Results? I'm in love with them. The reasons were stated very well in previous responses to your question.
Sorry for this rather lengthy reply; my enthusiasm plays games with me. Buy an M8 and see for yourself.
Best of luck and best regards,
Osman
 
M

Matt Cullen

Guest
Well I've read all your posts, and I guess this was pretty much the kind of response I was expecting that the M8 is the best choice, rather than spending a lot of money on a used film body. With around $7000 invested in Nikon lenses I'm also no stranger to putting more money into lenses than into bodies. I'm not one of those people who buys a 4-5k DSLR to use with a $200-300 third party super-zoom, and those people are out there.

It's good to know that there are really no poor quality M-mount lenses out there from Leica, Zeiss and Voigtlander. However I own the Voigtlander Nokton 58mm f/1.4 for Nikon F-mount, and while the bokeh, sharpness and contrast are all excellent, chromatic aberrations are definitely on the high side, which is workable, but something I'd rather not deal with. So I'd prefer to buy lenses that are apochromatic or close to it when possible. That's one of the reasons I was so interested in the 75mm, although I get the impression from what I'm reading that the 75mm framelines are relatively poor on the M8, so maybe a 50mm is the better option, although I still tend to prefer the subject isolation afforded by longer lenses.

I do want to keep the camera relatively compact, but I'm not too concerned about weight since I'm currently used to carrying around a D2X with either an 85mm f/1.4, a constant f/2.8 zoom, or a 300mm f/4. So the dimensions of the M8 will be welcome no matter which lens is mounted. I'll have to take a look at some of the other hand grip options mentioned, when I tried the camera out it had the Leica grip attached, and I liked that one a lot, made it pretty similar to holding a DSLR.

As far as focusing, as people have mentioned, this is another reason why the M8 seems like a better choice than film bodies. I'm used to manual focus with SLRs, but I've never owned a rangefinder before, or used one for an extended period of time. On the other hand, I can't imagine that they would be as popular as they are if they were much harder to manually focus than a a DSLR without any kind of split prism and an f/1.4 lens, and I have no problem doing that. I'm actually eager to get used to focusing with one, but it would definitely be more convenient to waste costless digital frames practicing than rolls of film.

So at the moment my plan is looking like a used M8, and Brad, if you're willing to wait a week or two I can probably take you up on the offer. As for lenses, I guess a 50mm is a good start unless I see a really terrific deal on something else. So for a more specific question, between the Summicron, ZM 50mm f/2 Planar, and 50mm f/1.5 Sonnar, or a used Summilux, what would people recommend?
 

bradhusick

Active member
The Leica 50mm Summicron is one of the most popular lenses of all time, for good reason. It's tack sharp, easy to handle, compact and fast. I shoot this lens all the time at f/2.8 with spectacular results, not due to the photographer, but owed to the lens ;)
 

Paratom

Well-known member
good plan!
Owning nearly all focal length for the M the most used from my side are 28 and 50.
My favorite 50 is the 50/1.4 asph - it is very sharpo but still with a smooth bokeh.
The 50/1.4 pre-asph should also be a great lens, a little smoother.
I also own the 50/1.5 Zeiss. I really like the tones it delieveres. There is some focus shift reported (mayning focus changes when you stop down). In my experiecne not as bad as some people report. I like the lens but the bokeh can sometimes be a ittle funky.
50 cron I bet a great lens but personally I prefer the rendering of the lux - warmer, and for my taste I find more life in the lux-images.
Cheers, Tom

Second lens: get yourself a 28/2.0asph. its a perfect lens IMO
 

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
You will be happy with any of the 50 s you mentioned. The zeiss 50 /2 planar is an outstanding and at about $600 used an excellent value. It is really the lens for photographs with fine details..high contrast,exceptional sharpness, saturated color. The 50 summilux comes in two popular models ..the newest asph is one of the best all around lenses on an M8 . Better IMHO than the planar and a 1.4 ..but the bokeh is somewhat harsh...actually looks sharp due to the high contrast. The pre asph model of the summilux is very popular on the M8 because wide open its has a smooth bokeh with the Leica glowing highlights. Stopped down its right in there with the best. The summicron has a beautiful look and has been the leica standard forever ...it has great color . The zeiss sonnar is well regarded for its smooth ,glowing look wide open and excellent all around performance stopped down.

Technical perfection takes away some of the lens character but you gain better rendering of details and better tone separation(better know as micro contrast). So if you think about smooth bokeh,glowing highlights ,lower contrast wide open on one end and super sharp,high contrast and saturated colors on the other.........think zm sonnar,leica preasph,leica summicron ,zm planar and then the leica asph. No right answer just preferences ..unless you say this is exactly what i intend to use it for.


I like the pre asph summilux 46mm version for its special character. I do also like the zeiss planar for travel photography and black and white street work. I have all except the zm sonnar so I have used them .

You should get a subscription to Reid reviews as he explains this much better than I can.
 

Hacker

New member
With the M8, I tend to carry it with me more often, taking shots I would normally not take as the DSLR is often too big and clumsy (relatively). But the M8 pales when it comes to tele shots.
 

glennedens

Active member
Matt,

If you are going to be shooting longer apertures with the M8 you should consider purchasing the new Leica 1.4x eyepiece magnifier. It makes critical focusing a lot easier than the 1.25x magnifier with longer lenses.

I got an M8 when it came out (I survived all the original issues :) and now have an M8.2. While I still use my D3 and H3 a lot, I find the M8 a real joy to use - the images have a snap and feeling that is unique. I have used several M-series cameras over the decades. Working with a rangefinder to this day still changes the way I see.

I have used almost all of the CV and ZM lenses, and they are all great, each in their own way, I still keep coming back to Leica M glass.

Glenn
 

simonclivehughes

Active member
Matt,

Similar background to you also and I had a pair of M8s and a slew of lenses. All I can say is make darn sure you don't mind the manual focus on every shot (hyperfocal excepted). I found I was missing shots I expected to get and would have gotten with AF. In the end, although I loved the feel of the M8s, I sold them and went back to a pair of D300s. As I say, I adored the feel of the cameras in my hand, but do I regret selling them, not for a moment.

One other thing to consider is that you specifically mentioned you are a "telephoto guy" and the 75mm is almost the longest you're going to be able to shoot comfortably on the M8.

Just another perspective.

Ciao,
 
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fotografz

Well-known member
Well, I'll go against the tide here and share my own experiences ... a dangerous game on a M forum : -)

I am a 30+ year M shooter ... never been without one. Currently a M8 owner with 24/2,8 ASPH, 28/2ASPH, 35/1.4ASPH, 50/1.4ASPH and 90/2.8 lenses. Have owned most of the Leica optics and most of the M version cameras at one time or another.

My M8 now is religated to less use. A Nikon D700 with Zeiss ZF glass is used more frequently. Like you, a bit more weight doesn't bother me ... and being able to bring one AF lens with me on a trip can be useful.

Now the real reason is the ability to shoot ambient light at super high ISOs compared to the M8 which tops out at a marginal 1250 ... the D700 screams past the M8 on to 2000, 3200, 5000 ... I've even done ISO 6400, 8000 and ocassionally ISO 10,000 with good results for that kind of ambient image making in places where the M8 dare not tread. So, it depends on what you want to accomplish.

BTW, there is a HUGE difference in manually focusing a D700 compared to a D300 or other crop frame Nikons. Add a diagonal split prism screen and it's even easier ... or for really critical focus use the moveable focus point for focus confirmation instead of center focus recompose which with fast glass up close is a deadly combo.

I primarily use the ZF 28/2 and 50/2 Macro which are 28mm and 50mm on the D700 not a 1.33X lens factor like the M8 ... and now the excellent ZF85/1.4 ... I may look at the ZF21/2.8 eventually.

Just an alt POV, as unpopular as it may be.

When and IF the M8 get to a usable 3200 ISO it may come back into play more frequently.
 

jonoslack

Active member
Well, I'll go against the tide here and share my own experiences ... a dangerous game on a M forum : -)

(snip)
Just an alt POV, as unpopular as it may be.

When and IF the M8 get to a usable 3200 ISO it may come back into play more frequently.
I rather felt that (at least around here) the M8 users were rather pragmatic as opposed to dogmatic (unlike some of the MF users I might suggest) :)

Well, I quite agree with you (how could one not). But I still reckon you get quite different response from victims when you point a D700 at them - even with a small lens.

The joy of the M8 is that (in my experience) you are pretty much ignored, which certainly has its advantages
 

fotografz

Well-known member
I rather felt that (at least around here) the M8 users were rather pragmatic as opposed to dogmatic (unlike some of the MF users I might suggest) :)

Well, I quite agree with you (how could one not). But I still reckon you get quite different response from victims when you point a D700 at them - even with a small lens.

The joy of the M8 is that (in my experience) you are pretty much ignored, which certainly has its advantages
Sorry, but I believe it's the shooter not the camera that gets "noticed." Lots of pretty great candid work being done with something other than a M camera. I suppose it depends on how quick and cool you are ;)

Here's quick snap on Holloween in NYC using the D700 @ ISO 2500 + 1 stop comp, and 28/2 ... shot pretty close to the subjects without detection as I walked toward them ... loved the expression on the older woman's face :)
 
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