Some Interesting News - Photokina 2012

[ashwinrao1]

Personally, I'll be quite curious. If Leica decides to divide sales between a high end M10 and a lower end ME", both with RF options and the ME more comparable to M9 in terms of IQ but at a palatale price point, I do see it being successful....I believe that enough people will desire and M10 to not have an ME cannibalize sales...as the CL did to the M5, if I am not mistaken....I guess we'll see...hopefully the M10 won't be an M5.2, so people will actually want it... for me, I suspect that the M9 will be plenty enough camera for me, and the MM will be a happy edition when it comes my way...

 

[Shashin]

I hate to say, but actually a good working EVF can be pretty helpful. Not wanting to look through it? Rather prefer OVF?

Keep in mind that each OVF has a lot of limitations. SO I think they need to come up with an EVF concept for the M-Digital finally in order to stay competitive and successful.

But an EVF has limitations as well. Bad color and grainy and really does not present the world very well. And when compared to a rangefinder, blackout during exposure. And one of its advantages is also it disadvantage--it can destroy your low-light visual adaptation. EVFs are nice, but not for everybody.

Who is Leica's competition? The micro four thirds consortium? Certainly their pricing has not put off their customer base. The lack of AF has not hurt them. What other rangefinder manufacturer is doing business? I can't see the lack of an EVF is going to hurt the bottom line nor prevent this from being successful.

 

[Shashin]

...as the CL did to the M5,

Well, that could be because the M5 did not look like a "real" Leica. The Leica base is very conservative about design and Leica knows that.

 

[Godfrey]

to cannibalize sales...as the CL did to the M5 ...

The CL could only be seen to cannibalize M5 sales from a rather skew perspective. The M5 was released in 1971 and the M4 discontinued. It failed to motivate sales immediately, mostly on the basis of it being larger, heavier, and clunky-looking compared to the traditional design of the M4.

The CL was introduced in 1973—two years later—and was very popular as it was much less expensive. But it sold to a largely new audience ... the owners of M3-M4 cameras simply held onto their older cameras and didn't update to the M5, although some added a CL to their kit as well.

It was a different time and a different dynamic in the marketplace when it comes to camera upgrades. People didn't just automatically "have to have" the latest update of a camera model.

 

[jonoslack]

But an EVF has limitations as well. Bad color and grainy and really does not present the world very well. And when compared to a rangefinder, blackout during exposure. And one of its advantages is also it disadvantage--it can destroy your low-light visual adaptation. EVFs are nice, but not for everybody.

Erm. Which EVF are you looking in? Sure, tha blackout in a rangefinder is zero. But the shutter lag isn't (of course that's a function of a CCD). I read your comments and went and spent half an hour trying to re-evaluate. As far as I can see the blackout is minuscule compared to a dSLR, the colour is what you're going to get, and its not grainy in our late night kitchen, where the chosen ISO is 6400. Added to which the single shot AF is lightning and thebshutter lag almost non-existent. Maybe you should look again?

Of course, you're entitled to dislike EVFs, but if you're going to give reasons......

 

[Lloyd]

Come on Jono, throw us a bone... how is it (are they) working for you?

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Generically speaking I had this EVF on the Sony 77 that the black out just killed it for me. All OEMs need to solve this, it's a killer when your shooting multiple frames doing fast work. I had a real hard time with it shooting runway. Basically it got in my way and that's a bad thing. I'm keeping a close eye on Leica this year. If anyone I think they maybe in the position to release something special. Also watching Hassy too as there pockets are far deeper than all of us realize. Bottom line is who has the most money to throw at R&D and willing to take risks will rise to the top. My advice keep a open mind.

 

[Ben Rubinstein]

I'm keeping a close eye on Leica this year. If anyone I think they maybe in the position to release something special.

Does your bank manager know about this? More to the point, does the wife?

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Neither but I did fill my knitting basket just in case. LOL

 

[Shashin]

Erm. Which EVF are you looking in? Sure, tha blackout in a rangefinder is zero. But the shutter lag isn't (of course that's a function of a CCD). I read your comments and went and spent half an hour trying to re-evaluate. As far as I can see the blackout is minuscule compared to a dSLR, the colour is what you're going to get, and its not grainy in our late night kitchen, where the chosen ISO is 6400. Added to which the single shot AF is lightning and thebshutter lag almost non-existent. Maybe you should look again?

Of course, you're entitled to dislike EVFs, but if you're going to give reasons......

I have used the Sony 77 and Fuji X100 EVFs. I was told the EVFs in those cameras are excellent. I have yet to see the color in the EVF appear in the file. I did not find the view very clear.

I don't dislike EVFs--I prefer optical finders. I simply tried to qualify the statement by giving my reasons (I was commenting on someone stating the OVF have limitations and was just pointing out the EVFs are not perfect either). You might be surprised that I am not the only one at GetDPI that prefers an optical finder. I am sure folks like EVFs for very good reasons.

Now, you may prefer Leica to drop the optical finder in their M line, and that is fine. I would really like cameras with optical finders still produced. I have a great affinity with the rangefinder particularly, and the optical finder is central to that. I think it will be a sad day if the S4 and M11 are EVF only cameras IMVHO.

 

[Vivek]

If you have used the Sony A77 and the X100 and make these comments on EVF, there is little you can do but visit an optician for a check up. I am sincere about that.

 

[Ben Rubinstein]

I tried the EVF in the X100, was utterly awful, heaven help you if you move the camera with it to your eye, everything becomes a streaked blur. That and it was a very 'weak' image. Would love to try the one in the Nex 7.

 

[Chuck Jones]

I actually like the EVF in my Nex-7. I like the one in the XPro-1 even better, as you can turn it off and use the OVF when you want. Both have great resolution, though the color is not what your going to get on capture with either.

 

[Godfrey]

I have used the Sony 77 and Fuji X100 EVFs. ...

Neither of those EVFs are up to the quality of the EVF provided with the Olympus VF-2, the E-M5 or X2 EVFs. The latter best them by a good margin, IMO.

Inter-frame blackout with the EVF on the X2 is pretty quick. NONE of the current TTL electronic viewfinder cameras are at their best when doing sequence capture of moving subjects, so I would never rely upon them for that.

As in all things, an EVF has its strengths and weaknesses, as do tunnel optical viewfinders, LCD viewfinders, and reflex optical viewfinders. Each has its specific assortment of failure modes, none do everything well. That's why I have cameras which include all four types of viewfinder options, and pick the best one for what I'm trying to do.

I *like* bare bones optical viewfinders the most, but their limitations are quickly apparent to an objective analysis.

 

[jonoslack]

HI There

I have used the Sony 77 and Fuji X100 EVFs. I was told the EVFs in those cameras are excellent. I have yet to see the color in the EVF appear in the file. I did not find the view very clear.

Well, I thought the Fuji horrible, and the A77 does (did?) have some lag - I've been using an OMD for 5 months (and that's what I was thinking about) and one forgets the shortcomings of others!

I don't dislike EVFs--I prefer optical finders. I simply tried to qualify the statement by giving my reasons (I was commenting on someone stating the OVF have limitations and was just pointing out the EVFs are not perfect either). You might be surprised that I am not the only one at GetDPI that prefers an optical finder. I am sure folks like EVFs for very good reasons.

Well, I prefer the look of an optical finder as well - and it's worth pointing out I was largely thinking of dSLR optical finders as a comparison. Certainly EVFs aren't perfect, and there's a way to go, but we all spent years refining our rangefinder skills, and you needs skill with an optical finder too (and practice). I find it very odd going back to a proper real camera (a dSLR) and finding that:
1. I can't see the white balance
2. there is terrible shutter lag
3. I can't see the exposure
4. taking a picture sounds like someone stamping on a tin can.

Now, you may prefer Leica to drop the optical finder in their M line, and that is fine.

Wow . . I hope I didn't imply that - I would be horrified if they dropped the optical finder - I'd be horrified if they dropped the mechanical rangefinder as well - for me it's the most important single feature which makes me keep on using M cameras :bugeyes: that would be dreadful (fortunately I don't think they will).

I would really like cameras with optical finders still produced. I have a great affinity with the rangefinder particularly, and the optical finder is central to that. I think it will be a sad day if the S4 and M11 are EVF only cameras IMVHO.

Absolutely agree with that statement . . . It's just that I'm finding it hard to think of going back to a dSLR with an optical viewfinder, and I can see the benefits of an EVF under lots of circumstances (like, maybe, if you want to put a 200mm lens on your M12).

all the best

 

[doug]

... I can see the benefits of an EVF under lots of circumstances (like, maybe, if you want to put a 200mm lens on your M12).

I don't think we'll have to wait for the M12. Leica's blog for Aug 28 is all about R equipment, something they haven't mentioned AT ALL since the R system was discontinued.

 

[Hausen]

All of this speculation makes me happier with my current M9 and that makes my day. Remember when I had my M8 and dreaded the Photokina announcement of the M9. Maybe the CCD sensor in my M9 will be a collectors item?

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Your M9 is no dinosaur either. All this speculation is great but almost every time regardless of who announces what they always still come up a dollar short on something. Let's see what happens.

 

[Shashin]

It's just that I'm finding it hard to think of going back to a dSLR with an optical viewfinder...

Well, the next time you come to Maine or I visit East Anglia--I grew up in Cambridge--I will let you try my Pentax 645D. It might be very illuminating.

A bad viewfinder is a bad viewfinder and that has nothing to do with it being an EVF or OVF. I don't know how folks use an APS DSLR, which explains the enthusiasm for live view. I love the viewfinder on my Mamiya 6 and, while I had it, a Horseman SW612.

 

[jonoslack]

Well, the next time you come to Maine or I visit East Anglia--I grew up in Cambridge--I will let you try my Pentax 645D. It might be very illuminating.

A bad viewfinder is a bad viewfinder and that has nothing to do with it being an EVF or OVF. I don't know how folks use an APS DSLR, which explains the enthusiasm for live view. I love the viewfinder on my Mamiya 6 and, while I had it, a Horseman SW612.

But I'm just a snapper, and MF cameras freeze my brains. I simply don't have the intellectual staying power. My Sony A900 had a decent optical viewfinder (generally considered) - but I'd rather use an OMD given an equivalent lens.

Love to meet up for a pint and talk about rangefinders though