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THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

Godfrey

Well-known member
So nothing in the optical than for any focus confirm. Bummer ...
Um, in the optical viewfinder, why would you need anything more than the rangefinder spot to confirm focus?

A rangefinder spot allows you to see what you are focusing on at the same time as whether it is in focus.

An indicator light requires you to look in two places to see what's in focus. An indicator light by itself can only tell you that something is in focus, you have to also target the thing you're focusing on to determine whether the indicator light is lit up.

I don't know that there's any added utility in that. Of course, the mechanics of in-focus indication means having some sort of phase detect or contrast detect focusing algorithm in place as well and I don't know how you'd do that with an optical-mechanical rangefinder apparatus that only knows where the focusing mount is turned to in order to align a prism to a particular point—the meaning of what it sees is up to your eye. Beyond that, you need a sensor or two in the viewfinder optical chain. In Live View mode, the main sensor could do the job, but the main sensor is covered by the shutter when not in Live View mode (unless they've gone to an open-shutter rest state, like with NEX and Micro-FourThirds).
 

jonoslack

Active member
Um, in the optical viewfinder, why would you need anything more than the rangefinder spot to confirm focus?

A rangefinder spot allows you to see what you are focusing on at the same time as whether it is in focus.

An indicator light requires you to look in two places to see what's in focus. An indicator light by itself can only tell you that something is in focus, you have to also target the thing you're focusing on to determine whether the indicator light is lit up.

I don't know that there's any added utility in that. Of course, the mechanics of in-focus indication means having some sort of phase detect or contrast detect focusing algorithm in place as well and I don't know how you'd do that with an optical-mechanical rangefinder apparatus that only knows where the focusing mount is turned to in order to align a prism to a particular point—the meaning of what it sees is up to your eye. Beyond that, you need a sensor or two in the viewfinder optical chain. In Live View mode, the main sensor could do the job, but the main sensor is covered by the shutter when not in Live View mode (unless they've gone to an open-shutter rest state, like with NEX and Micro-FourThirds).
Hi Godfrey
Beautifully put - when you're in optical rangefinder mode (as can be seen in both David Farkas and Thorsten Overgaard's blogs - both excellent) the shutter is closed, and the normal grey shutter blade is assessing exposure - it doesn't seem likely that there will be any kind of focus confirmation. Added to which, the LED information sounds pretty much like the M9 - which certainly suggests that there isn't the overlay needed to provide focus confirmation in the optical viewfinder.
As i understand from Stefan's interview with Thorsten, if you use the M in normal rangefinder mode it will behave just like an M9 (and quite right too).

all the best
 

fotografz

Well-known member
What a gorgeous modern camera as seen in the video. I just wish I could imagine that the FF Sony Nex won't just make so much more sense when it comes out (as it must).
Ben, it is great that all the do-dads people want are now available on the M camera ... what is most important to me is that without them, this is a traditional M rangefinder camera with an optical viewfinder like always ... the Sony will never be that. The A900 was probably the last OVF they will ever make.

-Marc
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Than its exactly as the M9 today that is my point. I may not want to use LV or the darn EVF. Some of us hate EVFs and live view is NOT on the fly shooting. If nothing has changed in the optical than for some its a no go . A lot of people have a hard time with the optical range finder as it is today. Also I don't always want some thing on top if the cam, that's another issue. This sounds like a half baked solution. Please don't tell me the rangefinder is accurate either been here done that and it's not always the case.

What we are hoping for here is that focus preview lights up inside the optical to show a focus mark on what is in focus that's what previews are for. That is the solution not a accessory .
 

iiiNelson

Well-known member
What we are hoping for here is that focus preview lights up inside the optical to show a focus mark on what is in focus that's what previews are for. That is the solution not a accessory .
Wouldn't that take an EVF of some sort? Whether it's a hybrid OVF/EVF like the Fuji or a full on EVF like the Sony cameras it would seem that an EVF would be needed to mark what's in focus if you didn't want to use LV. Something will always be in focus through traditional rangefinder means - it just may not be what you want. I don't know how they could confirm a subject is in focus without EVF or autofocus points/ lenses reading off the sensor.
 

stephengilbert

Active member
"Whether it's a hybrid OVF/EVF like the Fuji, ..."

Right, it would be unreasonable to expect Leica to be able to produce something as high tech as the Fuji hybrid VF. Too much to expect.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Placed my M Black order today.

Once I have it in hand will evaluate it against the M9P and decide whether to keep both ... M9P as back-up.

After eye surgery to remove a thick yellow nasty cataract, and a Toric lens to correct astigmatism my eyes are back to my youthful M glory days. Actual surgery took 12 minutes and was totally painless. Two weeks afterwards can nail OVF rangefinder focus on a black cat at midnight in a coal mine, wham!

Viva La Leica!

-Marc
 

Hosermage

Active member
Guy, I think the problem with a focus mark is the camera doesn't know what you are focusing on. How will it know when to light it? One solution is use the center of the image, so it basically light up the mark when the center point is in focus (kinda like when the focus peaking shows up in center), but we all know that mean the focus light could be lit for a wide range of focus-throw, depending on aperture. For shallow DOF, it'll be hard to judge the "in-focus" unless the center area is very small.

edit: nevermind, I see you mean a hybrid VF, not a confirmation dot.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Wouldn't that take an EVF of some sort? Whether it's a hybrid OVF/EVF like the Fuji or a full on EVF like the Sony cameras it would seem that an EVF would be needed to mark what's in focus if you didn't want to use LV. Something will always be in focus through traditional rangefinder means - it just may not be what you want. I don't know how they could confirm a subject is in focus without EVF or autofocus points/ lenses reading off the sensor.
Simple hit focus preview and it reads off the sensor. That was where I was going with this. Just like the EVF does why not with that focus preview it could not read in the optical off the sensor. Now would that not be a feature set you would like.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Guy, I think the problem with a focus mark is the camera doesn't know what you are focusing on. How will it know when to light it? One solution is use the center of the image, so it basically light up the mark when the center point is in focus (kinda like when the focus peaking shows up in center), but we all know that mean the focus light could be lit for a wide range of focus-throw, depending on aperture. For shallow DOF, it'll be hard to judge the "in-focus" unless the center area is very small.
I guess this could go along with the focus preview button. Lets say you hit that button and it actually read in the optical what the sensor is seeing just like live view or the EVF. Than the secondary part which is usually contrast driven for focusing it could light up the area via like phase one back with focus mask. The tech is there in the phase back to show what is in focus via it works by contrast. Now in the M let's say it took that tech and lit up a green area that has the most contrast when it's reading off the sensor. Now I could be talking M11 model here but just imagine this. This is sort of what I was hoping for when it said focus preview cause this what that would mean. Maybe they should name that something else cause its the first thing I thought of.
 

Hosermage

Active member
I get what you mean... convert the focus peaking dots that they would show on the LV/EVF, and project it onto the optical viewer, overlaying the real image. I think my solution is easier :D confirm center focus, then recompose... it's how RF shooter do it anyway.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Now I'm giving the M a load of credit here they jumped into the future damn well here but I think they are relying a little too much on this external. Finder than trying to put things in the optical. This is what Stephan and I talked about several years ago and we where talking of a more electronic technology through the optical . One was the lit up frame lines that seems to be on this. Awesome it needed it but focus has always been a issue with M and bad eyes or old eyes lets say. Now they did help with live view and the EVF. Just wish they tried harder for this Focus tech type stuff in the body. I know I maybe pushing the envelop here.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I get what you mean... convert the focus peaking dots that they would show on the LV/EVF, and project it onto the optical viewer, overlaying the real image. I think my solution is easier :D confirm center focus, then recompose... it's how RF shooter do it anyway.
Yes something like that would work. Lol yes I even do that with my Nikons and Phase but I want more. LOL
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Really I was hoping they made more use of the optical as EVF external is not always the perfect solution.
 

Hosermage

Active member
had another idea... someone mentioned something about AF in M-cameras where the sensor could be moved instead of the lens. What if all you need is to use the RF to get it close enough, then the sensor will slightly adjust to make it perfect (assuming it knows what perfect is). That'll solve bad eyes, focus shifts, misalignments... call it sensor-focus-assist.
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Nice idea not sure it's feasible because of space but more likely it could shake as well. Moving sensor sounds a little scary. LOL
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Than its exactly as the M9 today that is my point. I may not want to use LV or the darn EVF. Some of us hate EVFs and live view is NOT on the fly shooting. If nothing has changed in the optical than for some its a no go . A lot of people have a hard time with the optical range finder as it is today. Also I don't always want some thing on top if the cam, that's another issue. This sounds like a half baked solution. Please don't tell me the rangefinder is accurate either been here done that and it's not always the case.

What we are hoping for here is that focus preview lights up inside the optical to show a focus mark on what is in focus that's what previews are for. That is the solution not a accessory .
Guy, I'm a continuous M user for 40 years and see this as an evolution of the M in traditional rangefinder shooting methods, except the LV will allow more precise focus check if shooting on a tripod for really critical work ... and the gain of more low light ISO ability. Otherwise what you ask for is Focus Peaking that requires EVF, like it or not.

-Marc
 

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
Than its exactly as the M9 today that is my point. I may not want to use LV or the darn EVF. Some of us hate EVFs and live view is NOT on the fly shooting. If nothing has changed in the optical than for some its a no go . A lot of people have a hard time with the optical range finder as it is today. Also I don't always want some thing on top if the cam, that's another issue. This sounds like a half baked solution. Please don't tell me the rangefinder is accurate either been here done that and it's not always the case.

What we are hoping for here is that focus preview lights up inside the optical to show a focus mark on what is in focus that's what previews are for. That is the solution not a accessory .
Guy

Well said . RF shooting is different ...advantages and disadvantages ..some can t stand it and other can live with out it .

However I am not sure that focus confirmation would add as much as implied. I was working in NYC with a 50 1.4R on the D800E ... a sweet lens that nicely balances on the Nikon Body . Focus confirmation helped but as the light diminished ..it wasn t acceptable . So using a pretty good DSLR the FC wasn t up to the task ..not sure the Leica would be either .

Focus peaking is another story altogether but then you are using the EVF .

My issue with the EVF is that it seems to get in my way of "seeing" the photograph ..I am watching it on a small screen .
 

docmoore

Subscriber and Workshop Member
Really I was hoping they made more use of the optical as EVF external is not always the perfect solution.
OK here is my Canon 1DX compromise....

Focus with the OVF...hit live view...magnify fine tune hit live view to return mirror and you are good to go. Since the OVF on the M does not blank out your round trip time is seconds...with practice this is very doable...the difficulty is the change in focus distance from eye position with the OVF to looking at the LCD. On a Mono or Tri no movement of camera so not a big deal.

Looking at the results with a DSLR will convince you that OVF is not good enough ... not even considering a lens that has focus shift as you change aperture.

Actually you need to do this only when moving to a new focus distance...as long as you are in the zone just shoot.

Bob
 
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