THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

[iiiNelson]

Simple hit focus preview and it reads off the sensor. That was where I was going with this. Just like the EVF does why not with that focus preview it could not read in the optical off the sensor. Now would that not be a feature set you would like.

I guess what I was getting at is how will it be able to display the "augmented reality" in showing what is exactly in focus without an EVF in a mirrorless design? Granted you can see what's in focus with SLR's as you're seeing what the lens "sees." Something is always "in focus" with a manual lens. I just don't see a way around the "issue" outside the Fuji OVF/EVF method or a full on EVF in a mirrorless camera.

Don't get me wrong I wouldn't mind a Fuji style OVF/EVF as long as the quality is high and I'm not a fan of add-ons at all. If I decide to add some R glass to the kit then I wouldn't be opposed to the EVF. Outside of that I can compose with the OVF and check focus on the rear screen if need be.

 

[Godfrey]

Now I'm giving the M a load of credit here they jumped into the future damn well here but I think they are relying a little too much on this external. Finder than trying to put things in the optical. This is what Stephan and I talked about several years ago and we where talking of a more electronic technology through the optical . One was the lit up frame lines that seems to be on this. Awesome it needed it but focus has always been a issue with M and bad eyes or old eyes lets say. Now they did help with live view and the EVF. Just wish they tried harder for this Focus tech type stuff in the body. I know I maybe pushing the envelop here.

LOL .. I think we're on opposite poles with this one, Guy. I want no overlays in the optical finder at all. I prefer the M4-2 optical finder because it has fewer framelines than the M9. One of the real turn-offs to me with the Fuji X100, first time I picked it up, was the busy, cluttered mess in the optical finder. I know you can turn nearly all of it off, but I really really hated it. ;-)

No one camera is best for every photographic purpose or every photographer. What you want ... well, I suspect better off with that nice Nikon D800 you have already.

 

[Godfrey]

had another idea... someone mentioned something about AF in M-cameras where the sensor could be moved instead of the lens. What if all you need is to use the RF to get it close enough, then the sensor will slightly adjust to make it perfect (assuming it knows what perfect is). That'll solve bad eyes, focus shifts, misalignments... call it sensor-focus-assist.

Contax did something like that in one of their SLR cameras. It was horrible, made the camera much bigger and heavier, and the focusing mechanism wasn't particularly reliable.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

LOL .. I think we're on opposite poles with this one, Guy. I want no overlays in the optical finder at all. I prefer the M4-2 optical finder because it has fewer framelines than the M9. One of the real turn-offs to me with the Fuji X100, first time I picked it up, was the busy, cluttered mess in the optical finder. I know you can turn nearly all of it off, but I really really hated it. ;-)

No one camera is best for every photographic purpose or every photographer. What you want ... well, I suspect better off with that nice Nikon D800 you have already.

Well my idea is actually simple and clean you hit the focus preview when you want and it reads the sensor and green dots light up on areas that are in focus at shooting aperture than simply release the preview button. It's a bang bang and its off. Very fast very clean as you go right back to normal optical. It's a future idea it seems. That's okay my guess Leica will make a internal EVF anyway at some point. I'll see once I get a chance to try one how I like the EVF. Live view is great and a no brainer but really a tripod type function. I can't hold cameras away from me just not me. I like sucking face with the camera if you know what mean. Lol

 

[docmoore]

Well my idea is actually simple and clean you hit the focus preview when you want and it reads the sensor and green dots light up on areas that are in focus at shooting aperture than simply release the preview button. It's a bang bang and its off. Very fast very clean as you go right back to normal optical. It's a future idea it seems. That's okay my guess Leica will make a internal EVF anyway at some point. I'll see once I get a chance to try one how I like the EVF. Live view is great and a no brainer but really a tripod type function. I can't hold cameras away from me just not me. I like sucking face with the camera if you know what mean. Lol

The drawback of focus confirmation with a RF is the size of the spot....unless you can tailor it to your subject you will be disappointed.

With an OVF Leica would need to institute an additional sensor in the focus plane unrelated to the sensor...how small it would sense and could it be steerable would determine how effective it would be....

Probably why LV is their answer.

Bob

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Bob on the phase back with focus mask which most likely could be done is in the menu you set it to either fine tune to the sharpest area . So basically you have a adjustment based on contrast values. They could possible do something of that nature. Most AF system are contrast base so it's really not a far out technology.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Live view is standard anymore and with CMOS a given. It's not on the fly working solution really. It's workable handheld but for very critical focus I guarantee you'll move when you take it off and recompose. People look at live view as a solution a little to much but it is a limited one as well. Obviously will depend on shooting style and subject . Not a tool for journalists lets say in general. My idea would be since you never take the camera away.

Well just some ideas. Thanks everyone for the input.

 

[dfarkas]

FWIW, there was effectively no delay when shooting with live view on the Leica M. No mirror and a faster shutter mechanism made for very quick shooting. I fired off a 5 or 6 shot burst in continuous mode and the screen didn't even appear to have noticeable blackout.

And, given the size of the M, I was able to get very accurate results hand holding, both with the EVF and the LCD. If you are used to the way a Nikon or Canon handles LV then, yes, I would be wary too of handheld shooting. As I wrote in my article, you have to try it to really see just how good a job Leica did on this camera.

Ok, back to writing..... the sun is going to come up soon

 

[Woody Campbell]

Placed my M Black order today.

Once I have it in hand will evaluate it against the M9P and decide whether to keep both ... M9P as back-up.

After eye surgery to remove a thick yellow nasty cataract, and a Toric lens to correct astigmatism my eyes are back to my youthful M glory days. Actual surgery took 12 minutes and was totally painless. Two weeks afterwards can nail OVF rangefinder focus on a black cat at midnight in a coal mine, wham!

Viva La Leica!

-Marc

Great news

 

[Hosermage]

sample output @ 6400?

Ok guys , An Unofficial "New M" shot ....6400 Iso... : Leica Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

should be reliable, from a regular in the forum.

 

[D&A]

Hi Guy,

Without repeating what has been expressed in the many excellent posts (and discussion here) and most certainly all you expressed, I would ahve to admit that your feelings about focus confirmation and how I too think it should be implemented, are near identical...as is out expectations that a rangefinder like the Leica M is mostly for spontanious hand held shooting. I so far am not a fan of accessories in the shoe on top of the camera and rarely of Live view on an LCD unless maybe I'm deliberately on a tripod with a DSLR.

A simple red (or for Guy a "green") dot in the viewfinder to indicate maxium phase contrast of the part of the subject that one is focusing on, would be welcomed. Whetehr some sort of magnification fo the optical viewfinder needs to be implemented to achieve this, might be necessary. For me personally, a M rangefinder shoudl be versitile but not turned into a psedo DSLR. I respect though that everyones needs and desires are different.

Dave (D&A)

 

[Guy Mancuso]

FWIW, there was effectively no delay when shooting with live view on the Leica M. No mirror and a faster shutter mechanism made for very quick shooting. I fired off a 5 or 6 shot burst in continuous mode and the screen didn't even appear to have noticeable blackout.

And, given the size of the M, I was able to get very accurate results hand holding, both with the EVF and the LCD. If you are used to the way a Nikon or Canon handles LV then, yes, I would be wary too of handheld shooting. As I wrote in my article, you have to try it to really see just how good a job Leica did on this camera.

Ok, back to writing..... the sun is going to come up soon

Well good news on live view by that still does not solve the issue with wanting the camera at your eye. It's still a 12 inches from your face and for many with reading glasses on not fun to work with. You can shoot a 100 frames per second but many of us do not like composing like that and your also losing stability with the cam extended from your body. Like I said live view is on every CMOS cam out there its nothing special unless you have time to use it. It is not a total solution just like external EVF is not. What I'm talking about is fluid in camera and fast. I would never for instance shoot a cam 12 inches away if not on a tripod. Many of us won't . The cam is part of your body as soon as you extend it than its really not part of you.

I'll be honest here I would not be buying a M for live view. Is this not the journalist camera of our lifetime. HCB would roll over in his grave with the thought of shooting with live view and not with a M pressed against his face sweating all over the thing. Now that's a Leica M camera. LOL

 

[edwardkaraa]

My impression is that the new M is being slightly misunderstood. It is essentially and primarily a classic RF M body, with some added electronic "conveniences" like LV, peaking, focus magnification, video. These added conveniences should not distract from what the camera really is. These additions are a solution for R lens users, for M users who would like to add more versatility to the camera by enabling it to shoot some macro and telephoto longer than 135mm, and to be able to get very precise focusing for critical applications, probably tripod mounted work.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

No Leica slightly got away from there optical finder to accomplish this. I totally get the extra features I shot the M8 Professional for two years and it certainly has its limits with macro and long lenses, I actually had to give it up because of these limitations. A M is a optical RF finder that is its roots, they simply took a route that went outside of the optical . Live view is a given forget that for a moment. My point is the EVF this was the simplistic solution. What they needed to do was put and keep there roots within the optical finder. They did not take that risk to try a system the incorporates optical and electronic within the camera. In truth that external EVF should not even be there if they did this within the optical part of the cam itself. Now I admit it may have been too soon in time for a really kick butt EVF on its own to use. Bottom line this is not finished yet, version two or M11 will probably nail it just right. It's a great start don't get me wrong. But what I am talking about was talked about and maybe it is something they just cannot do. The External EVF is the biggest complaint so far and with good reason . It's adds bulk to the camera and its a cheap solution. I think for myself it would be one of those accessories that may only get pulled out with a R lens and that's okay but the heart of a M given the M roots and purist it's all based within the optical. The added live view on LCD is the bonus.

Anyway it's just some thoughts not meant to end the world. I just look at cams and come up with ideas that make sense to me as a long time shooter that maybe more efficient.

Okay good night folks thanks for listening. Kind of fun to kick the can around

 

[PeterA]

A lot of internet 'expert shooters' have lots of shots of rulers with fine gradations on them and get themselves into a tizzy because fast glass has front and back focus issues - focus peaking removes this major concern of so many internet geniuses and perfectionists - therefore I would imagine these people who cried loud and long would be very happy with the additions of EVF tech - something I have been using on Sony for about a year now and think is absolutely marvelous ! Cant wait to upgrade my M into the 21st century!

Love the idea of being able to use R glass on an M now- a pity I sold pretty much every R lens ever made by Leica up to and including the 280/4.

Having the ability to shoot moving images using Leica glass fantastic..

I am very happy with where Leica is taking the M camera - if I want to use the optical range finder I can -if I drop the thing and put the rangefinder patch alignment out- I can use EVF to check focus before I go home and fix teh finicky thing - and if I want to look like a tourist- I can use the LCD panel - Leica truly are very thoughtful <thumbs up>

 

[Godfrey]

I have the EVF for the M already ... Use it with the X2 ... And it's an excellent EVF. my experience using the EVF with the GXR is that I want it as soon as I hit the focal length of a normal lens to obtain critical focus and framing.

My take is that normally I shoot with 21-50 mm lenses and the RF is wonderful, just what i want, but the EVF will make using my fast 85, 90, 105, 135 and 200 mm lenses on the M a pleasure.

 

[Ario Arioldi]

I have the EVF for the M already ... Use it with the X2 ... And it's an excellent EVF. my experience using the EVF with the GXR is that I want it as soon as I hit the focal length of a normal lens to obtain critical focus and framing.

My take is that normally I shoot with 21-50 mm lenses and the RF is wonderful, just what i want, but the EVF will make using my fast 85, 90, 105, 135 and 200 mm lenses on the M a pleasure.

I heard is the same EVF2 used by Olympus, anybody can confirm?

 

[Godfrey]

I heard is the same EVF2 used by Olympus, anybody can confirm?

Yes, it's the Olympus VF-2. That's the one I bought. The Leica model differs only slightly in the casing design, the electronics are identical. They're made by Epson.

G

 

[Arjuna]

They did not take that risk to try a system the incorporates optical and electronic within the camera. In truth that external EVF should not even be there if they did this within the optical part of the cam itself.

I think that what you want is an optical viewfinder, that you can quickly switch to an EVF/live view mode to check focus, with minimal (optical) disruption? I can only think of a few ways to implement this:

1. The Fuji X100. The switch between optical and EVF works more or less well, but only because you have a single focal length lens, so you can match the EVF to the optical viewfinder's magnification, and view from the fixed lens.

2. An optical zooming viewfinder, in order to make the optical view match the size of the EVF. The Contax G is the only example of this that I know, and it isn't very much like an M. It would change the rangefinder experience completely. This is really trying to make it behave like an SLR.

3. Scale the EVF to fit the frame lines. Probably possible, and would minimize the optical disruption, but probably not much of a focussing aid, e.g. how much would you be able to see in an EVF/live view image that fits in the 90 mm frame lines?

 

[edwardkaraa]

The point is, the Leica M is exactly an M9 with an upgraded 24 mp sensor that has better performance concerning high iso noise and better corner performance with wides, and a much faster processor. It does not have to be anything else, if you don't push that button that is. And you don't have to push that button.