THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

[jonoslack]

A M is a optical RF finder that is its roots, they simply took a route that went outside of the optical . Live view is a given forget that for a moment. My point is the EVF this was the simplistic solution. What they needed to do was put and keep there roots within the optical finder.

Surely that's what they've done?

They did not take that risk to try a system the incorporates optical and electronic within the camera. In truth that external EVF should not even be there if they did this within the optical part of the cam itself. Now I admit it may have been too soon in time for a really kick butt EVF on its own to use.

If you put the EVF into the camera body itself (whether hybrid or separate), there is no of improving this as EVFs improve (which they are doing, at a startling rate).

But what I am talking about was talked about and maybe it is something they just cannot do. The External EVF is the biggest complaint so far and with good reason . It's adds bulk to the camera and its a cheap solution.

People have been sticking accessory viewfinders on M cameras since the early 1950s - why is it suddenly not okay? Especially considering that, in this case it has some very obvious advantages over an optical finder:
1. you don't need to change it for different focal lengths
2. it allows tilting for critical focusing on a tripod for instance for macro
3. you can focus and compose with it at the same time (always an issue with optical finders)

I think for myself it would be one of those accessories that may only get pulled out with a R lens and that's okay but the heart of a M given the M roots and purist it's all based within the optical. The added live view on LCD is the bonus.

Well, I kind of agree with you here - so you'll only use it for macro and telephoto - at least, I guess that's all I'll use it for. After all, the real point of the M is the rangefinder, and it's there to use (just as it always was).

As far as the focus confirmation point - I'd say two things:
1. I find these confusing when there are many points in the frame which are in focus.
2. isn't that what the rangefinder patch is for anyway?

Bottom line this is not finished yet, version two or M11 will probably nail it just right. It's a great start don't get me wrong.

What camera is ever finished? I do agree that a perfectly integrated hybrid viewfinder would be a wonderful thing, but certainly NOT at the expense of the mechanical rangefinder patch, and the framelines (which is what an M is about, abandon these and call it an N or a Z and that's fine). But I wonder whether the technology is there yet to commit it to an M without making unacceptable compromises to those who want to operate the camera in a traditional way.

all the best

 

[jonoslack]

The point is, the Leica M is exactly an M9 with an upgraded 24 mp sensor that has better performance concerning high iso noise and better corner performance with wides, and a much faster processor. It does not have to be anything else, if you don't push that button that is. And you don't have to push that button.

Exactly Edward - my feelings too. And so should be the M version 2 and M version 3 etc. etc.
all the best

 

[jonoslack]

After eye surgery to remove a thick yellow nasty cataract, and a Toric lens to correct astigmatism my eyes are back to my youthful M glory days. Actual surgery took 12 minutes and was totally painless. Two weeks afterwards can nail OVF rangefinder focus on a black cat at midnight in a coal mine, wham!

Viva La Leica!

-Marc

Hey - HOOORAAAY; I'm so pleased to hear it Marc - excellent news.
all the very best

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I was not thinking of changing the Rf patch or anything different than what you see today. More like you hit that preview button it activates a projected image in the optical finder of what the sensor sees, ala live view inside but with the added focus points lit up of what is sharp by contrast. It's actually seeing what live view or EVF is seeing. In this case the external EVF would not be needed. When you put a R lens on it would activate the live view image inside if possible. The preview focus button is the activation of live view image in the optical finder. I'm not asking to take away what is in the optical finder. Just take the live image and project it in the path of the optical with a press of a button

 

[edwardkaraa]

Exactly Edward - my feelings too. And so should be the M version 2 and M version 3 etc. etc.
all the best

Excellent points regarding the EVF versus external OVF. I'm so glad that I will be able to use my ZM 18 and 25 "normally".

 

[Vivek]

Just think about it.. one can use tilt shift lenses on a M camera. :thumbs:

 

[fotografz]

Exactly Edward - my feelings too. And so should be the M version 2 and M version 3 etc. etc.
all the best

Agreed.

IMO, this is exactly where I had hoped the M would go. 24 meg is about the limit I'd prefer to maintain the whole hand-held spontaneous gestalt of traditional rangefinder photography without do-dads like Image Stabilization.

In a way, what Guy says is true ... an evolution of the M9 in terms of pure rangefinder photography ... which ain't all bad for those with a M9/M9P ... their camera wasn't invalidated and made super obsolete over-night.

I will probably get the EVF, even though I may not use it much ... but it is a real candidate for use with my 21/1.4ASPH in low light, since it requires a clip-on anyway ... and the EVF also indicates "what you see is what you get" in truly challenging lighting situations (like flare, or getting a specific light balance in contrasty situations).

Presumably, if Leica wants to keep some sense of longevity for their M, they will allow firmware updates to accommodate at least the next generation of EVF.

I like the new naming convention if they keep it up. It will help add to the sense of longevity, at least psychologically. I drive a Volvo CX90 that is almost 8 years old and looks like one made 3 years ago. I've never felt out-dated in this vehicle because it has what I want in it and hasn't become dated looking. Even the new one looks similar, just smaller.

-Marc

 

[jonoslack]

I was not thinking of changing the Rf patch or anything different than what you see today. More like you hit that preview button it activates a projected image in the optical finder of what the sensor sees, ala live view inside but with the added focus points lit up of what is sharp by contrast. It's actually seeing what live view or EVF is seeing. In this case the external EVF would not be needed. When you put a R lens on it would activate the live view image inside if possible. The preview focus button is the activation of live view image in the optical finder. I'm not asking to take away what is in the optical finder. Just take the live image and project it in the path of the optical with a press of a button

Hi Guy - I do understand what you're saying, but I think you underestimate the complications of it.

1 it really does (of course) require a full hybrid EVF to achieve it.

2 More than that (much more): it would need a cross reference to the actual field of view of the EVF, the lens, and the optical viewfinder, together with a complete parrallax correction mechanism to ensure that there is a proper match between them.

I think it could only ever work with coded M lenses (where it would only be a luxury) - and even then I would have thought that an accurate correlation at all distances would be almost impossible to achieve.

Worth mentioning that this is just me thinking off the top of my head.

all the best

 

[Guy Mancuso]

No I know it's not a easy thing to do . Actually it's a idea that dates back to the M8 when I sat down with Stephan and we drew it out on a napkin. Good old days but anyway I think the technology is still not there yet to pull it off with quality projection and such. I'm not a engineer as we know but ideas like this are good as they lead into other things as well. The M was never perfect when it came to frame lines and viewing, we all can agree on that. This is certainly a heck of a lot better for sure. Lets face it we needed optical finders for wides that could not be seen inside. So not so far off than that. Now maybe by the time of release they can work on or something unique may pop up to even improve the EVF that they are talking about using. So lets not say we are happy yet but let's push the envelop here with Leica and let them know we want better so start working on it. We always have to keep asking for better solutions and keep folks thinking. Lets face it this came from who was it Epson, Olympus stock. Not a Leica designed item. Maybe it will change on release who knows. But you know me I hate settling and there is no perfect cam out there. Nikon is nice but no way in hell is it perfect. Nor is anything in MF which still after all these announcements A no one went CMOS B no one introduced a new back C no one improved there back. All we really got was camera tweaks which are great for Hassy, Phase, Leica but certainly light at that. Leica overall won 2012 Photokinia, Nikon D800 broke the barriers. Obviously more but a lot was left on the engineering floor as well.

Have a nasty toothache and can't sleep. LOL I need improvement too. ROTFLMAO

 

[jonoslack]

We always have to keep asking for better solutions and keep folks thinking. Lets face it this came from who was it Epson, Olympus stock. Not a Leica designed item. Maybe it will change on release who knows.

Hopefully there is also scope for a new and improved EVF in the future.

I do quite agree with you - these things need talking about.

But you know me I hate settling and there is no perfect cam out there. Nikon is nice but no way in hell is it perfect. Nor is anything in MF which still after all these announcements A no one went CMOS B no one introduced a new back C no one improved there back. All we really got was camera tweaks which are great for Hassy, Phase, Leica but certainly light at that. Leica overall won 2012 Photokinia, Nikon D800 broke the barriers. Obviously more but a lot was left on the engineering floor as well.

I also think that Leica won Photokina, and who would have predicted that 5 years ago - it'll be interesting to see how images from the M will stack up against the extra MP on the D800 - personally I can't wait!

Have a nasty toothache and can't sleep. LOL I need improvement too. ROTFLMAO

Hard luck - hope it get's better soon. I'm back at work for the first day in 3 weeks . . . boo!

all the best

 

[tashley]

I'm with you on 90% of that but IS has one hidden benefit: with longer lenses it makes 10x zoom view EVF focussing much easier because of the removal of jiggling...

Agreed.

IMO, this is exactly where I had hoped the M would go. 24 meg is about the limit I'd prefer to maintain the whole hand-held spontaneous gestalt of traditional rangefinder photography without do-dads like Image Stabilization.

In a way, what Guy says is true ... an evolution of the M9 in terms of pure rangefinder photography ... which ain't all bad for those with a M9/M9P ... their camera wasn't invalidated and made super obsolete over-night.

I will probably get the EVF, even though I may not use it much ... but it is a real candidate for use with my 21/1.4ASPH in low light, since it requires a clip-on anyway ... and the EVF also indicates "what you see is what you get" in truly challenging lighting situations (like flare, or getting a specific light balance in contrasty situations).

Presumably, if Leica wants to keep some sense of longevity for their M, they will allow firmware updates to accommodate at least the next generation of EVF.

I like the new naming convention if they keep it up. It will help add to the sense of longevity, at least psychologically. I drive a Volvo CX90 that is almost 8 years old and looks like one made 3 years ago. I've never felt out-dated in this vehicle because it has what I want in it and hasn't become dated looking. Even the new one looks similar, just smaller.

-Marc

 

[glenerrolrd]

What a contrast ....last month it was the MONO ...all about getting back to the basics . A pure RF experience ..only black and white . A few small fast lenses in a small bag . Jump on the train and travel along thru Siberia . Critically sharp large enlargements . " We need smaller lenses ..not the Coke bottles " . Exhibits by the Magnum photographers in Paris .

Capabilities that extend your potential (higher ISO to shoot available light) and even a crazy expensive world class new summicron . Dedication and appreciation of both the art and craft .....Leica Mono at the Leica Akademie . New exhibits at the Leica galleries world wide ..closer ties to the iconic photographers .

Now ..fast forward to the new M ... CCD to CMOS ...and its all about using your R glass on a M body ? Really you want to use an enormous Leica R zoom on your M in stopped down mode (thats the marketing photo) . A slide on EVF designed for Olympus 4/3 gear (that costs more than the whole Olympus version including the camera ).

Movies ..wow ..I can get an $7K body thats half as good as a 5D2 .

Best one I heard was using LV to focus a Zeiss 15/2.8 ...so lets see I use the EVF to focus using focus peaking . Yes you can sure do that but serious what the heck are you photographing where this would be a common occurrence?

The new M should be about doing the basics better and not a word . Has Leica said anything about improved IQ ? Shown any examples of improved high ISO ? Pointed out that the EVF can allow users to better focus the 90-135 M glass. Improved close focusing abilities . Or even talked about how focus peaking helps old eyes in dim light (talking about me).

Been using R glass on alt bodies ever since the DMR became obsolete . The EVF is a very nice feature but seriously .."the new R" solution .

 

[Guy Mancuso]

The R is in stop down mode. A crap , really. Been there done that have the gold T-shirt with Canon bodies no less.

 

[edwardkaraa]

Seriously, Leica should have made another M version without the LV and video buttons and without the EVF port. It should be called M-P (as for purists) and sold for 10K as was previously rumored. You can always hack the firmware to get LV though

 

[Guy Mancuso]

What a contrast ....last month it was the MONO ...all about getting back to the basics . A pure RF experience ..only black and white . A few small fast lenses in a small bag . Jump on the train and travel along thru Siberia . Critically sharp large enlargements . " We need smaller lenses ..not the Coke bottles " . Exhibits by the Magnum photographers in Paris .

Capabilities that extend your potential (higher ISO to shoot available light) and even a crazy expensive world class new summicron . Dedication and appreciation of both the art and craft .....Leica Mono at the Leica Akademie . New exhibits at the Leica galleries world wide ..closer ties to the iconic photographers .

Now ..fast forward to the new M ... CCD to CMOS ...and its all about using your R glass on a M body ? Really you want to use an enormous Leica R zoom on your M in stopped down mode (thats the marketing photo) . A slide on EVF designed for Olympus 4/3 gear (that costs more than the whole Olympus version including the camera ).

Movies ..wow ..I can get an $7K body thats half as good as a 5D2 .

Best one I heard was using LV to focus a Zeiss 15/2.8 ...so lets see I use the EVF to focus using focus peaking . Yes you can sure do that but serious what the heck are you photographing where this would be a common occurrence?

The new M should be about doing the basics better and not a word . Has Leica said anything about improved IQ ? Shown any examples of improved high ISO ? Pointed out that the EVF can allow users to better focus the 90-135 M glass. Improved close focusing abilities . Or even talked about how focus peaking helps old eyes in dim light (talking about me).

Been using R glass on alt bodies ever since the DMR became obsolete . The EVF is a very nice feature but seriously .."the new R" solution .

Roger did someone steal your ID and post this?

I'm kidding but I tend to agree. Just because its there it becomes a marketing tool. Make sure it's a useful tool.

 

[jonoslack]

Hi Roger

The new M should be about doing the basics better and not a word . Has Leica said anything about improved IQ ? Shown any examples of improved high ISO ? Pointed out that the EVF can allow users to better focus the 90-135 M glass. Improved close focusing abilities . Or even talked about how focus peaking helps old eyes in dim light (talking about me).

I think it's about all of these things - there aren't any samples yet, because they aren't ready yet (is this unreasonable?). If you don't want to spend an arm and a leg on the EVF, then don't - buy an Olympus one (I'm guessing it'll work, just as it does on the X2).

Focus peaking will certainly allow users to better focus the 90-135 M glass and improve close focusing . . . and focusing in low light . . in addition you get:

1. much faster processing
2. weather sealing
3. better LCD for review
4. Better high ISO
5. higher pixel count

. . . isn't this what everyone was asking for?

If you don't want the other stuff - well then, don't use it!

Been using R glass on alt bodies ever since the DMR became obsolete . The EVF is a very nice feature but seriously .."the new R" solution .

Well . . . I occasionally like to do telephoto and macro - it seems to me that this allows me to do it with one, full frame, body - what's the grouch? Personally I prefer precise manual focusing on an EVF to an optical viewfinder anyway.

all the best

 

[Bob]

This could be a winner depending on the evf view.
Once I get my hands on one that should tell the tale pretty quickly.
-bob

 

[ptomsu]

Think we need to wait and see how the EVF implementation on the new M is working in real life.

Personally I am happy about how this is solved in the M meanwhile. Was always proposing a built in hybrid finder, but meanwhile I think the 2 separate solutions make even more sense as each one can be optimized for its own strengths.

I am looking forward to improve my speed with the M using the EVF with FP for very fast lenses and for the longer lenses as well, especially the 1.4/75 (one of my best lenses), the 2/90 APO and of course the 4/135 APO.

Plus I might get the one or other R zoom lens and then be able to travel with a pretty small kit covering from 16 (WATE) to maybe 200 (4/80-200).

This was never possible before with a RF and now it is, which is absolutely great news!

PLUS - great they have chosen to "limit" the resolution to 24MP. Which is more than enough even for very demanding work. Else you need more take MFD or try around with the D800E which in combination with great glass (like Zeiss ZF) can deliver nicely (and very fast as well).

 

[D&A]

Hi Guy - I do understand what you're saying, but I think you underestimate the complications of it.

1 it really does (of course) require a full hybrid EVF to achieve it.

2 More than that (much more): it would need a cross reference to the actual field of view of the EVF, the lens, and the optical viewfinder, together with a complete parrallax correction mechanism to ensure that there is a proper match between them.

I think it could only ever work with coded M lenses (where it would only be a luxury) - and even then I would have thought that an accurate correlation at all distances would be almost impossible to achieve.

Worth mentioning that this is just me thinking off the top of my head.

all the best

After reading all of Guy's post (in this thread) we are of the same mind. I realize a start has to be made somewheres and excellent implementation of the EVF with the new M sounds like an excellent start. Yet for myself, the the whole raison d'être of shooting with a Leica rangefinder camera is the viewfinder that's inside the camera and that one's eye never has to leave it, especially for those that do shoot for the decisive moment. Thats why I believe most had a love-hate relationship with external finders, especially that focusing then composing (as with ultra wide angles) became a 2 step process). At least with the EVF, one can do both, although its not quite the same as "simply and only" using the optical finder inside the camera.

Pressing a button to activate some sort of electronic overlay inside the M optical viewfinder I realize may be overly expensive, complicated and the tech is not there for a smooth and cost effective solution at this time but Guy I believe is on the right track...that well down the road, I do hope they explore this possibility. I believe if it can be done in a way that when this electronic overlay (or hybrid arrangement) is switched "off", the optical viewfinder is the same as we've grown to love and simply with a push of a button, a hybrid type viewfinder is then activated. It's basically turned "on" for wide or long lenses or when a focusing aid (such as focus peaking) is desired. One never has to move their eye from the traditional rangefinder.

I believe if this ultimately can be done in future iterations of the new M (a unified optical and electronic viewfinder), then many will look back on the current external implimenation and realize a unified viewfinder is a considerable step forward to the benefit and long standing relevancy to traditional rangefinder shooting.....simply with the advancement of no longer needing any types of external finders for wide or long glass and as an added bonus, an addtional type of focusing aid is available inside the optical/hybrid finder if desired. All this would be available inside the cameras own viewfinder!

Jono, in your previous kind response (posting) to my question regarding the need for coded lenses (or menu input) with the extrenal EVF...I guess what I was thinking of was along the lines of this hypothetical intergrated viewfinder and indeed if such a hybrid viewfinder could be implemented, coding or menu input of each lens as you said, would then be required.

Dave (D&A)

 

[Guy Mancuso]

This could be a winner depending on the evf view.
Once I get my hands on one that should tell the tale pretty quickly.
-bob

Here Bob looks pretty generic.

Hands-on with the Leica M: A Numberless Top-of-the-Line Digital Rangefinder