THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

[StephenPatterson]

Wow,

as already stated several times - just stop reading about this new "ugly" M and even better, do not consider buying it!

That saves you lot of headache and all the other members in this forum as well - ok?

Just a recommendation ....

Just a rude recommendation.

My opinion on the merits (or lack thereof) of the latest M are just as valid as yours. As the owner of two M9s and more M mount lenses than I care to admit I have a very real interest in the new M's IQ, which is all that really matters to me, even at the expense of ergonomics. I am hoping for the best, but after hearing Thorsten Overgaard's interview with Stefan Daniel I have a very uneasy feeling.

 

[fotografz]

Godfrey, I'm simply saying that without demonstrating IQ there is nothing to consider. Until we have full resolution images to view and compare it's just a gadget with a red dot that hopes to become a camera. In the meantime I'm not drinking the Kool-Aid.

For anyone who hasn't seen the sample images on Leica's website they are 800x542 pixel jpegs (96 pixels/inch) coming in under 150K size. Unbelievable for a new product announcement.

I agree and disagree.

I think there are a lot of folks interested in what the IQ looks like from the CMOS sensor in comparison to the current CCD ... and I'm one of those people.

Whether it matches the M9 isn't the question in my mind, it is what does the new sensor bring to the party in combination with the M lenses? The other question is how much post work will be necessary to optimize the out-put?

I ordered one which I don't expect to be delivered until infinity to the second power ... plenty of time to watch how it goes . The M won't be mine until I give them the money ... so I'm in the driver's seat.

I'm sure they are at the tweak/firmware/tweak some more/test/firmware etc. stage.

I'm glad they announced it now so I don't blow my money on something else. That cash is now earmarked for the M happily gaining .0002% interest in the bank :loco:

-Marc

 

[Vivek]

A friend just sent me this link to DN's site on the new sensor:

Technical Sensor Details of New M | La Vida Leica!

 

[fotografz]

Just some additional thoughts. Personally speaking for myself, the big question as some have alluded to is ultimately the full rez images this camera produces, especially with the change to CMOS. In one sense I think those at the helm at Leica are acutely aware of the expectations that most are placing on this new 24mp sensor and that the look and quality of the files it produces not only matches, but exceeds those from the M9. On the other hand, something tells me Leica was determined to announce and show the prototype of this camera at Photokina and for whatever reason, it wasn't near being ready, especially from the standpoint of final sensor and/or firmware development and thus no files or full scale images were publicly displayed or available.

If this is the case Leica might feel that they won't actually release the camera until which time they feel its ready and if that means a delay in early 2013, so be it. As long as full rez files aren't released, image wise, there is nothing to criticize (or praise) in terms of image quality. So ultimately there will be a lot of conjecture, both ways, until which time there are files to play with.

As for EVF and other external bits and pieces, as Guy, myself and other have stated it would have been nice if the EVF had been somehow incorporated into the internal optical finder as some sort of overlay that could be turned "on" or "off" as desired, I think whether it was a technical, financial or design decision, it as far as Leica wanted to go for this round of a new M. As Marc has pointed out, keep all these devices away and off the new M, and basically the camera appears close to the look and handling of an M9, except with the incorporated LV and other improvements (and new 24mp sensor of course). Once the EVF and/or other external options are attached, I too, without handling this new camera, feel it's a bit bloated. Heck, even when I attach a regular external optical finder to a M9, I feel it has already changed its handling/compact feel.

No doubt this new camera with many of its associated accessories and ultimately their performance and handling is going to be very subjective. Its just what some want and other don't....and a few of us, maybe right in the middle.

I can't say for sure if this is sort of an interim product in the sense that in the future, some of the external options will eventually find their way inside the camera, such as a hybrid finder and maybe that external mic. Hard to say, but if they do, then some will feel it's even more like a feature laden DSLR and further away from the traditional M rangefinder roots. That is why I believe Leica made the conscious decision to keep a M9 like camera such as the ME in the product line and for the time being, such a more classic digital M rangefinder will always be available, as an alternative.

*** P.S. I should also add that Leica may have made the conscious decision not to incorporate a hybrid finder at this time, one up to their standards, simply due to the costs involved and with the desire to keep the price point of the digital M from climbing ever high as it's done since the introduction of the original M8. With making the external EVF optional as well as the mic etc., the've given options to the pricing structue of this system while keeping the costs of the camera itself down (relatively speaking). With regards to keeping its present price point, I think most would agree, this was a pleasent surprise, even though these cameras are still very expensive.

Dave (D&A)

The question is ... is there a EVF up to their standards ... or a lot of their users standards? Putting half-baked technology into a $7,000 camera is a poor idea IMO ... I think Leica did the right thing for this itteration of the M camera.

Actually, the notion of a clip-on EVF hit home for me yesterday. Since my eye surgery, I'm back shooting weddings with the M9 ... and a revolving EVF would have been a God sent last night what with all the bending and kneeling for 9 hours ... and me with a bum knee and bad back flaring up.:shocked:

Coulda used ISO 3200 also.

-Marc

 

[D&A]

The question is ... is there a EVF up to their standards ... or a lot of their users standards? Putting half-baked technology into a $7,000 camera is a poor idea IMO ... I think Leica did the right thing for this itteration of the M camera.

Actually, the notion of a clip-on EVF hit home for me yesterday. Since my eye surgery, I'm back shooting weddings with the M9 ... and a revolving EVF would have been a God sent last night what with all the bending and kneeling for 9 hours ... and me with a bum knee and bad back flaring up.:shocked:

Coulda used ISO 3200 also.

-Marc

Marc, thats the $64,000 question (or is it now up to 64 million $$ taking inflation into account. )

Even if Leica was considering putting in a hybrid viewfinder where it's basically an optical one, until one "calls up" a electronic overlay with a push of a button, it had to both be up to Leica's and their users standards as well as be within the relm of economic feasability.

Of course even if both objectives were met, it still wouldn't have been of help with having to bend and kneel in the situation you described, if it was indeed, internal. My guess is even if Leica at some point incorporated a hybrid viewfinder (up to their standards) within a M digital rangefinder, the option to use an external rotatable one would still be available for purchase.

Dave (D&A)

Wh

 

[jonoslack]

I quite agree with everyone .. . . . the image quality has to be good, otherwise it's no good to anyone.

I think it's unfortunate that everyone thinks it's fatter than an M9 (somebody at photokina compared the base plates and said that it's is exactly the same size, so the extra 5mm is in the thumb grip).

Stephen, I don't understand your problem apart from the unknown IQ - you can shoot it just like your M9, with no bells and whistles and no bloat). The Olympus EVF is really quite good, and I agree with Marc, better to have an optional, upgradeable EVF than a compulsory built in one.

As for the hybrid/overlay viewfinder - later maybe, but I simply don't understand how you go about getting the registration right for the overlay when you have to make it compatible with hundreds of different M lenses - desirable perhaps, but hard to conceive.

Leica will release full size samples when the camera is ready (they certainly did with the MM) They've said it won't ship until 2013, so it obviously isn't ready yet! It doesn't mean there is a problem,

all the best

 

[Shashin]

Godfrey, I'm simply saying that without demonstrating IQ there is nothing to consider.

What if you don't have an M rangefinder or are looking for a second body and would like live view? You would not consider it?

 

[Shashin]

The tack on $200 external EVF is simply lazy design.

So with a weatherproof design and an optical rangefinder, how would you integrate an EVF that can be tilted? It would seem actually difficult to me.

 

[D&A]

Jono Wrote>>>"As for the hybrid/overlay viewfinder - later maybe, but I simply don't understand how you go about getting the registration right for the overlay when you have to make it compatible with hundreds of different M lenses - desirable perhaps, but hard to conceive."<<<

Agree, the technology might not be there now, but as we all know, it eventually gets there. Look how many advances in digital photography many said would never be done or found in cameras, and today they are as common place as anything else. Even a full frame digital M was often being doubted as doable, but eventually got there. (just one of hundreds of examples).

As for what both Jono and Shashin has expressed regarding a internal EVF not be tiltable, obviously not, but that doesn't mean if a future digital M incorporates a hybrid internal viewfinder, that an external "tiltable" one won't be availble as an optional accessory. We have framelines inside the M9 for 28mm, yet some wearers of glasses choose to use an external 28mm finder on their M9. This would be no different with internal hybrid finders in the "M"...some may ultimately chose to have an external one too for just the reasons mentioned.

Something tells me though the next winning lottery ticket I find, just isn't going to be enough $$

Dave (D&A)

 

[Shashin]

What I find interesting is the hostility toward technology, especially if the cutting-edge technology is not used. The lastest technology does not always make a camera better. EVFs are OK, but are no by default "better" than optical viewfinders. That is simply personal preference. In fact, if you want the lastest and great in photographic technology, that would be an iPhone or a Lytro.

Photography is hard. Sophisticated technology does not result in good photography. I find most of this technology is simply convenience. I have found the that convenience is the shortest road to mediocrity. I choose a particular camera type for its strengths in how it can shape either how I work or what I see, not because it is easy to use--photography is not that hard and what kind of photographer would I be if I can't focus and expose. I see this melting of technology into one one camera type, the mirrorless with EVF and tilting LCD, as the worst form of mediocrity for photographers.

The strength of the Leica Ms are that they are optical rangefinders. Leica gives that choice in the marketplace and that is a boon for photographers. Everytime a process or technology disappears, we as photographers lose a little more. If you want an EVF, there are plenty of other companies that can give you that.

It is funny how we like choice but hate diversity.

 

[Godfrey]

Wow,

as already stated several times - just stop reading about this new "ugly" M and even better, do not consider buying it!

That saves you lot of headache and all the other members in this forum as well - ok?

Just a recommendation ....

+1 — Right on, Peter.

---
So let's see: the M9 has a better sensor than the M8. Nearly every case of a new model Leica superceding the older model, the new model was improved. I'm supposed to worry that Leica will not put a better sensor in their latest flagship M ... ?

I think that's an unwarranted fear. And if you still don't like it, just stick with what you have.

For some of us, the new M is exactly what we've been waiting for. I've not owned my M9 for very long, but the additional capabilities of this new M are enough to say "hell!" to the wind and order it, for me.

Of course, when I bought the M9 earlier in the year, all the folks kept telling me, "omigosh, why buy an M9 now when the new M10 with video and more pixels and all that stuff will blow it away at Photokina? That M9 is an ancient piece of junk with 2009 technology..." And now you all want to tell me I bought the right camera and the new technology you were all singing the praises of six months ago is probably not as good, etc etc. Make up your minds.

I'll do as I always do: ignore the noise of the naysayers and fan children equally, ignore all the reviews and web distributed sample files which tell me nothing. I'll handle the camera at the store, borrow one if I can, rent one when I can, and evaluate it for myself. Thank you.

The M9 is delightful. I'm certain the new M improves upon it. I'll buy one when I'm ready and when I think the camera nets me an advantage. I can already tick off five advantages it offers me even without considering pixel peeping the sensor.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Funny I ignore the Kool Aid drinkers.

 

[Shashin]

If you hung a couple of gallery walls with a bunch of fine images, you would not know what camera produced it beyond a few technical cues. Exactly what are we losing out on if we don't have the latest camera?

Don't get me wrong--I am glad companies are improving on performance and introducing new technology, but that does not make my current camera "inferior" and somehow, by extension, my work.

P.S. I have been married to the same woman for 19 years and am not thinking an upgrade is going to make my life better...

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Upgrades don't work on wives version 2.0 firmware just never took. Lol

 

[Vivek]

Firmware is a software stuff, Guy. :angel:

 

[Godfrey]

Hmm.

I know little about wives or upgrading their wares, whether firm or soft.

Enough of debate on the new M. I'll concentrate on happy news:

My 1955 Balda Baldix made 11 excellent exposures on the first roll of film I put through it! It would have made 12 if I'd loaded it properly (forgot a step in the loading process at the beginning).

There's the state of that art for ya. ;-)

Now to get to scanning ...

 

[jonoslack]

Jono Wrote>>>"As for the hybrid/overlay viewfinder - later maybe, but I simply don't understand how you go about getting the registration right for the overlay when you have to make it compatible with hundreds of different M lenses - desirable perhaps, but hard to conceive."<<<

Agree, the technology might not be there now, but as we all know, it eventually gets there.

HI Dave
I hope they get there as well (to a decent hybrid viewfinder), but it isn't just the technology. . . imagine - you have a 50mm Zeiss sonar attached, you see the framelines in the viewfinder (which are not accurate). Now, we want to overlay focusing information from the sensor - presumably it'll only cover the part of the viewfinder which represents the 50mm lens? - but parallax will change this positioning considerably at different focal lengths, and I don't really see how to correlate what the viewfinder is seeing with what the sensor is.

I suppose there might be a way to make this useful, but personally I can't see it. Focusing an M with the rangefinder patch for lenses from 28 to 75 is pretty easy, and for longer focal lengths the overlay would be useless anyway.

On another tack, if you want to switch between OVF and EVF, do you just put the EVF in the part of the framelines where the image will lie? or do you make it (disconcertingly) fill the viewfinder.

It's one of those things which is easy to SAY, but quite tough to work out helpfully.

I know I sound like an apologist, but it seems to me that the M does a grand job of keeping the gestalt whilst adding facilities to allow (me) not to carry a dSLR around for macro and telephoto, and for me that's a fantastic bonus.

As for the Kool Aid - drink what you like! The one thing we all agree on, is that ultimate success hinges around the image quality, but if that's good, then I don't see much to complain about. Leica have answered the questions that most people have asked, and they've done it without compromising the camera as a real M.


all the best

 

[D&A]

HI Dave
I hope they get there as well (to a decent hybrid viewfinder), but it isn't just the technology. . . imagine - you have a 50mm Zeiss sonar attached, you see the framelines in the viewfinder (which are not accurate). Now, we want to overlay focusing information from the sensor - presumably it'll only cover the part of the viewfinder which represents the 50mm lens? - but parallax will change this positioning considerably at different focal lengths, and I don't really see how to correlate what the viewfinder is seeing with what the sensor is.

I suppose there might be a way to make this useful, but personally I can't see it. Focusing an M with the rangefinder patch for lenses from 28 to 75 is pretty easy, and for longer focal lengths the overlay would be useless anyway.

On another tack, if you want to switch between OVF and EVF, do you just put the EVF in the part of the framelines where the image will lie? or do you make it (disconcertingly) fill the viewfinder.

It's one of those things which is easy to SAY, but quite tough to work out helpfully.

I know I sound like an apologist, but it seems to me that the M does a grand job of keeping the gestalt whilst adding facilities to allow (me) not to carry a dSLR around for macro and telephoto, and for me that's a fantastic bonus.

As for the Kool Aid - drink what you like! The one thing we all agree on, is that ultimate success hinges around the image quality, but if that's good, then I don't see much to complain about. Leica have answered the questions that most people have asked, and they've done it without compromising the camera as a real M.


all the best

Jono,

There is little that I don't agree with in all you expressed. My thoughts regarding a hybrid viewfinder is predicated on the assumption that it would be implemented in ways we haven't thought of yet or technology that doesn't yet exist. Yet things we can only dream or hope for, eventually materialize in a way that is both useful and makes sense. One day I have no doubt that Leica will make a ideal hybrid viewfinder a reality. This is no different when the original M2/M3 film cameras were first released and some could only dream of having 24mm, 28mm or even the 135mm frame lines exist inside the internal finder of an M rangefinder. Could any of us have dreamewd of a 37mp 35mm type SLR when the original Nikon 2.7MP D1 DSLR was originally released?

As for the quality of the new M sensor and what its images and the quality is going to be like...I have complete confidence that it will, like all successive generations of digital cameras, be an advancement over M9 files. What I think might be more productive to contemplate, is not whether the new M files are better than the current M9, but simply how they might appear visually to be different, based upon the basic premise that one is CMOS based and the other CCD. It may end up that simply the look of one may be prefered by some over the other and visa versa. When it arrives, all these questions will be answered and I'm looking forward to that time.

Dave (D&A)

 

[Chris C]

Sorry, but it seems both lines are fully illuminated by the LED, exactly as in the older VF.

From David Farkas report:

...... frame lines are still in three sets.......

Edward - Thank you for answering my enquiry. I had hoped that the wretched twinning of framelines had been finally superseded. My interest was misled by the Overgaard 'first impressions' :

No manual selection of frame lines and you only see the actual frame lines for the actual lens, not two pairs.

David Farkas account is unambiguous unfortunately.

............... Chris

 

[ptomsu]

To my knowledge of Leica they ALWAYS try and tried hard to really improve from one generation to the next - be it cameras or lenses or what else. And this BTW is the reason some of us (including myself) are sometimes impatient with them, many times I would even say this was right.

But why should I believe (or do so many here believe) that they have changed from this behavior for the development of the new M. They actually did not have too much pressure to bring this PK a new M, as the M9's are still sold out and a highly demanded camera. So my full trust in them that they are doing things right WRT IQ!

Interesting to see all the naysayers, many of them were asking for a new M with exactly the features it offers now, but suddenly no longer so sure if all their wishes were right?

I for myself stood away from the M9 (although I knew it is a wonderful camera) just because I was missing a number of those features the M is finally promising. Now I am really happy to have the option getting the M in 2013 and finally awake all my wonderful M glass to life again in a never known way before.

Exciting times ahead