THE NEW LEICA M Press Release

[stephengilbert]

Define "naysayers." Are they people who say they'd like to see an image captured by a newly designed camera before they decide they are going to buy it?

It's a camera, not a religious doctrine. Unlike the Pope, Leica is not infallible.

 

[jonoslack]

Define "naysayers." Are they people who say they'd like to see an image captured by a newly designed camera before they decide they are going to buy it?

It's a camera, not a religious doctrine. Unlike the Pope, Leica is not infallible.

Hi Stephen - quite agree that we need to see the IQ . . . . . but Peter does have a point here - there are a number of features which were commonly requested, which somehow don't seem so popular now they've been offered.

i'd say that a Naysayer was someone who said of the M9:
buffer too slow
LCD rubbish (too low resolution, not showing detail)
high ISO not good enough
no weather sealing

. . . and is now saying of the M
No hybrid EVF
I don't want a CMOS sensor
I don't want to pay for live view, video and all that stuff as I'll never use it
. . etc

with absolute no mention of the fact that the complaints of the M9 have largely been corrected.

it's pretty standard internet stuff I'd say.

all the best

. . . . . ps, glad to hear that the Pope IS infallible, I've heard some naysayers around here :ROTFL:

 

[iiiNelson]

I agree and while live view through the rear screen isn't always ideal I will admit that it's a great benefit to have it as an option. That being said I use my NEX camera this way pretty much exclusively so I have some practice. So while it's true I prefer framing through a viewfinder 90% of the time there are times where EVF is effective and convenient.

 

[docmoore]

. . . . . ps, glad to hear that the Pope IS infallible, I've heard some naysayers around here :ROTFL:

Hugh Latimer, Bishop and Martyr 16 October 1555
Nicholas Ridley, Bishop and Martyr 16 October 1555
Thomas Cranmer, Bishop and Martyr 21 March 1556

Mark 10:18

And I have heard a few in these parts.....

Bob

 

[lambert]

Hi Stephen - quite agree that we need to see the IQ . . . . . but Peter does have a point here - there are a number of features which were commonly requested, which somehow don't seem so popular now they've been offered.

i'd say that a Naysayer was someone who said of the M9:
buffer too slow
LCD rubbish (too low resolution, not showing detail)
high ISO not good enough
no weather sealing

. . . and is now saying of the M
No hybrid EVF
I don't want a CMOS sensor
I don't want to pay for live view, video and all that stuff as I'll never use it
. . etc

with absolute no mention of the fact that the complaints of the M9 have largely been corrected.

it's pretty standard internet stuff I'd say.

all the best

. . . . . ps, glad to hear that the Pope IS infallible, I've heard some naysayers around here :ROTFL:

Hi Jono

There is no doubt, in mind, that Leica had to deliver LV, EVF, video, and so on with their next generation digital M. If people don't want to use these new features, then that's fine. Just shoot the M as if it's an M9. However, I'm firmly in the camp with those that wants this new functionality. Shooting wides and teles on the M9, for example, is a PITA. And I would love to leave the camcorder behind when I travel.

Leica have clearly addressed many of the complaints with the M9, like high ISO IQ, low-res LCD, buffer size, and so on (none of which concern me). But these were easy to address. 24MP CMOS and faster electronics are a-dime-a-dozen nowadays.

My gripe with the M is the way the new features have been implemented. Take the EVF. My concern is not just that it is an ugly bolt on affair but that it is also a very average EVF. A Leica M body with typical lens tops $10k. The rebadged Olympus EVF is old hat and sells for a couple hundred bucks. When I shoot an M, I want to feel like I'm shooting an M, not some P&S (I already have a drawer full of those).

My other issue with the bolt on EVF is that if I want to shoot video in stereo (which I do) then it appears I need to remove the EVF and bolt on a stereo mike. Surely, the stereo mikes could have been incorporated into the body. As it stands, you can't shoot video in stereo via the EVF. This is bonkers.

As some have said, if it doesn't suit, walk away. But it's not that easy. I've been shooting Leica M for almost 20 years and love the stuff to bits. I was looking forward to a little more class and ingenuity from Leica with their next generation M digital.

Vin

PS. Do you honestly believe that Leica couldn't have done just a little better than this (see image below)?

 

[ptomsu]

Hi Jono

There is no doubt, in mind, that Leica had to deliver LV, EVF, video, and so on with their next generation digital M. If people don't want to use these new features, then that's fine. Just shoot the M as if it's an M9. However, I'm firmly in the camp with those that wants this new functionality. Shooting wides and teles on the M9, for example, is a PITA. And I would love to leave the camcorder behind when I travel.

Leica have clearly addressed many of the complaints with the M9, like high ISO IQ, low-res LCD, buffer size, and so on (none of which concern me). But these were easy to address. 24MP CMOS and faster electronics are a-dime-a-dozen nowadays.

My gripe with the M is the way the new features have been implemented. Take the EVF. My concern is not just that it is an ugly bolt on affair but that it is also a very average EVF. A Leica M body with typical lens tops $10k. The rebadged Olympus EVF is old hat and sells for a couple hundred bucks. When I shoot an M, I want to feel like I'm shooting an M, not some P&S (I already have a drawer full of those).

My other issue with the bolt on EVF is that if I want to shoot video in stereo (which I do) then it appears I need to remove the EVF and bolt on a stereo mike. Surely, the stereo mikes could have been incorporated into the body. As it stands, you can't shoot video in stereo via the EVF. This is bonkers.

As some have said, if it doesn't suit, walk away. But it's not that easy. I've been shooting Leica M for almost 20 years and love the stuff to bits. I was looking forward to a little more class and ingenuity from Leica with their next generation M digital.

Vin

PS. Do you honestly believe that Leica couldn't have done just a little better than this (see image below)?

I actually like very much what I see on this picture.

Sometimes less is more!

 

[StephenPatterson]

Sometimes less is more!

I absolutely agree, sometimes less is more. A lesson Leica learned when the M4 was brought back after the introduction of the M5.

 

[Paratom]

I think the great thing is that if you keep the evf off camera this is still the great kind of rangefinder camera many like.
And you still can buy an ME if you dont need any of the improvements.

Look at Sony ... if you want ff its the A99 and you dodnt even have the option to use an OVF.

For my part I dont see that there is much to criticize regarding the "M".

The only slight concern I have that it looses a little bit of its simplicity.
And I need to find out if I need/use the improvements over the M9.
I have to say though that for use of my 135/3.4 or Macro lenses the live view option doesnt hurt, and the better display doesnt hurt, and rugged and weatherproof is great.
So I am afraid as much I say I dodnt need all that I might replace my M9 with the M (if the IQ is up to my taste) but also keep the MM.

Tom

 

[StephenPatterson]

Actually if the last few years have taught me anything it's that Leica is masterful at variations on a theme. I have no doubt that by this time next year Leica will introduce the M-P (not to be confused with the MP), which will be the new CMOS sensor in the Monochrom body. No movies, no microphones, no thumb wheel, no live view buttons (but please give us back the frame preview lever), just images from a rangefinder.

Seriously, I don't want to come across as a naysayer, but I am a bit sad at where this new M is going. As an analogy I offer the Supermarine Spitfire.

Throughout the late 1930s and early 1940s the Spitfire went through a number of improvements to refine the design and improve performance. The Mk. V and Mk. IX are perhaps the best balance of power and handling of any WW2 fighter. But people wanted MORE. More speed, more altitude, make it a fighter/bomber...and so the Spit got heavy. Gone was the Merlin, replaced by the huge Griffon, clip the wings, cut down the turtle deck, slap on a bubble canopy, even add counter rotating props to Navy versions. In the end the Mk. 24 was twice as heavy with almost double the horsepower of the Mk. V but lost much of the superb handling that made it such a wonderful fighter.

I am absolutely wishing for amazing IQ from the new M, and when the improvements are demonstrated I will probably buy one, but that doesn't mean I have to be happy about every decision that went into making this new Leica.

 

[Nik]

Guys,

Can someone who knows answer two Qns for me :

Looking through the M's optional EVF will the photographer be able to see/use ‘Live View Zoom’ (option enabling up to 10 x magnification for precise assessment of the sharpness of subject) ?

Looking through the M's optional EVF will the photographer see/be able to use ‘Live View Focus Peaking’ (contours in the subject are automatically displayed as red lines to allow simple and convenient focus assessment) ?

Your help will be greatly appreciated.

 

[dfarkas]

Guys,

Can someone who knows answer two Qns for me :

Looking through the M's optional EVF will the photographer be able to see/use ‘Live View Zoom’ (option enabling up to 10 x magnification for precise assessment of the sharpness of subject) ?

Looking through the M's optional EVF will the photographer see/be able to use ‘Live View Focus Peaking’ (contours in the subject are automatically displayed as red lines to allow simple and convenient focus assessment) ?

Your help will be greatly appreciated.

Both are possible when using the EVF.

The only thing you can't do in the EVF that you can on the LCD is change menu settings. These don't display in EVF.

Hope this helps.

 

[Nik]

Both are possible when using the EVF.

The only thing you can't do in the EVF that you can on the LCD is change menu settings. These don't display in EVF.

Hope this helps.

Thank you David, this is very helpful!

 

[Hausen]

The EVF is a great idea for me. I love shooting stuff at ground level and using it like my Rolleiflex WLF is something I am looking forward too. I am on the list but fully expect to see Leica release sample images before the M ships as Jono has pointed out. I was burned with M8 as well. I think the flexibility offered by the bolt-on accessories is a superb idea. If you want the M to resemble a DSLR for whatever reason bolt them on and if you are walking around on street leave them at home. Seems like perfect world for me.

 

[barjohn]

Until you have actually spent time working with an EVF you don't realize the issues that need to be addressed and that it does not appear that Leica has addressed. The first of these is frame rate. You need 60 fps at minimum, 120 would be better. Other wise two things happen that will drive you nuts. The first is that as you pan looking through the EVF the image will waiver and the second is you will experience blackouts and the image will jump when it reappears due to camera movement.

Next, is using a magnified area for focusing is not that easy under at least two conditions. The first, is when the lens is stopped down and the DOF is large. It is very hard to find the focus point. The X2, the GXR and now the XPRO-1 hold the lens wide open during manual focusing and stop down to shooting aperture just before taking the picture. The second is that at high magnification that image jumps all over the place making focusing and composing extremely difficult. The OMD with its viewfinder stabilization is the first EVF you can actually use the MF with and its refresh rate at 60fps is fast enough so that blackout and jitter is truly minimized. I have the Oly VF-2 and the OMD and the VF-2 (I use it on an XZ-1) is not as good. The new Sony EVF is purported to be a big step up from these and from their NEX-7 EVF so we will see how well they work. The OVF in the X100/XPRO-1 is still hard to beat.

It seems unlikely that Leica will be able to add a new higher frame rte EVF to the camera and I suspect it won't be long before users are complaining about it or maybe not given the pablum some users will tolerate. The EVF in the X100 is 30fps and I can tell you that it is only marginally useable. It isn't even close to the OMD's EVF in use.

I think the other mistake Leica is making is not reducing the body size. It has continued to grow in size and weight and the big advantage of not having to lug a DSLR is rapidly going by the way side. Add the grip, EVF, additional hot shoe flash and R adapter and you have a kludge DSLR that is neither DSLR nor RF. Sort of the Frankenstein M. While Leica lenses are often smaller than DSLR lenses, they are not lighter so the total package becomes a very heavy one to lug around. No longer the sleek, quiet and low weight carry everywhere camera.

Last comment, it has taken Sony, Nikon and Canon several years to get CMOS sensors to where they are today. Can this new company (CMOSIS) do what has taken the big guys several years to develop in less than a year? Maybe there is enough non-proprietary information out there for them to do it but I would have to see it to believe it. Also, the Maestro processor was designed for a CCD sensor so what changes had to be made to make it work with a CMOS sensor and how well is the integration working? I guess we will see in January, if they can deliver then, whether these are valid concerns or not.

 

[glenerrolrd]

John

Excellent post thanks for sharing your experience with various EVF . I found the Nex 7 (EVF)frustrating with the 135APo m(my primary interest) but could see the benefits easily with the 50 1.4asph(focus peaking) . Not an inditement which wouldn t be fair but its not the same as having a high quality traditional SLR viewfinder.

AS an experienced R user ..the R bodies were always know for their bright clear viewfinders ..best in class . So whlle you may be able to mount and use R lenses on the new M ..for me its not even close to an R solution . The S2 viewfinder is my idea of an R solution and Leica has made it clear its not happening. I use R glass on my D800E as a point of reference .

Nice new capability but way over sold showing large heavy R zooms ? The NEW R solution please...its not .

 

[barjohn]

I should have also discussed the lag that occurs because what is being displayed is a fraction of a second behind reality. The result is that as you press for the decisive moment you see in the viewfinder it is too late as it has already passed. Perhaps a real life example of what I mean is best illustrated by the security camera business. The casinos use 60 fps as the minimum acceptable frame rate and prefer 120 fps because a practiced con is so fast that the camera will not catch the cheat at slower frame rates and the casino security will see nothing wrong while viewing the live feed. The hand is quicker than the eye. I have tried various Panasonic's and Olympus cameras with EVFs and none was good enough to be really usable except for the Em-5. The Fuji EVF is horrible but not as bad as some of the other EVFs I used. The best by far has been the EM-5 and that is due to its superb 5 axis stabilization and 60 fps frame rate. The image jumping around during focusing always drove me nuts.

Leica chose 30fps and with the large sensor it will be a problem with image tearing and black outs during shooting. Leica really should have licensed the Hybrid VF from Fuji or developed their own. As Guy has stated, even a simple approach like center point focus confirmation in an OVF would have been better for most applications (not necessarily R lens use but you really need VF stabilization to use an EVF at any level of magnification on a long lens).

 

[Godfrey]

Why should Leica license the deficient EVF from Fuji again? To get their non focusing optical viewfinder, which is nowhere near as good as the one Leica provides?

Makes no sense. The Fuji viewfinder was my first disappointment with the X100 and Xpro1. An unusable EVF for me; the Ricoh GXR's EVF and focus aids are much better, although they set the magnification a little low.

It's obvious that the M is a rangefinder camera first. It's been enhanced with the option of using an EVF for when that is appropriate and useful. That's all. I bet that many will never use it as it is unnecessary for most work with the standard range of RF lens focal lengths.

I was also under the impression that the EVF2 (Olympu VF-2) refresh rate was 30fps on the XZ-1, but on the Pen and X2 bodies it is run at 60fps. Not sure why Leica would run it at 30fps on the M body ... the only source which suggests that is Sean Reid's review. At 30fps it is less useful, but if they support the 60fps it is capable of on the X2 body, or even the 120 fps it is capable of on the E-M5, it will be just fine for its intended purpose.

Yes, an EVF (and LCD) is quite different in use from either a reflex or a tunnel optical finder. Each has its strengths and weaknesses. How nice that Leica affords us the option of all three with the new M.

 

[jonoslack]

Until you have actually spent time working with an EVF you don't realize the issues that need to be addressed and that it does not appear that Leica has addressed.

Hi There John
Good post. Like you, I've spent a lot of time with EVFs now, and the only one which really comes up to scratch is that on the EM5 - sure, it's the same piece of kit as in the VF2, but what's supplied to it is quite different, and it's the image stabilisation and fast refresh rate which makes it really workable.

As Godfrey says, the VF2 works well on the X2, without any obvious disadvantages (tearing, time delay). I have not looked through it on the M yet, so I can't comment on the actual implementation (can you?). I don't even know what the refresh rate will be (presumably it doesn't have to be the same as the video frame rate?)

As far as magnification (zooming) for precise focus is concerned - I agree with you, without IS it's not really useable on longer lenses due to the wobbling about. Which makes it really good that they've implemented focus peaking, which DOES work well with longer lenses, and also works well when stopped down.

The camera is only bigger if you attach all the bits (it is optional!). I'm assuming that the target audience is someone who is a rangefinder shooter, but who occasionally has telephoto and macro intentions (after all, SLR cameras aren't that great as rangefinders).

Licensing the Fuji hybrid finder would presumably have meant dropping the mechanical rangefinder and using the Fuji EVF (which is, IMHO, horrible).

The feedback from those who tried the camera with R lenses at photokina was pretty positive - maybe all is not what you are assuming!

all the best

 

[Paratom]

I have used the Nex EVF, the Oly VF2 and the Oly in the OMD and the Fuji.
For my taste I prefer the Oly and even the Fuji EVF over the Nex. In light witout much contrast the Sony is great and detailed. But when it gets sunny and harsh light I often found it too dark.
The Fuji is not great but better in this regard, even though the color is all off and the resolution not so great.
And while the color of the Oly is also somewhat off I prefer the Oly over the others so far.
I have only looked through EVF on the "M" for a few minutes and cant comment on the refresh rate - but it looked ok for me . With the 100/2.8 R I found focusing with magnification and focus peaking to work quite good.
I am not a EVF but for occasional use this Leica/Oly viewfinder would be fine for my needs.
If I planned to use Tele often I would choose a SLR with OVF anyways.

 

[Gary Clennan]

Will non-m mount lenses (eg. Nikkor, etc) be able to be utilized on the new M considering it has live view? I know there are adapters but am not sure if anything else limits their use on the M.