EXTERNAL LINK: Owner Review of SLRMagic 50/0.95 posted in dpreview "Leica Talk"

[Brian S]

EXTERNAL LINK: Owner Review of SLRMagic 50/0.95 posted in dpreview "Leica Talk"

Link to external site, dpreview.com's "Leica Talk forum".

Posted by dpreview member "facewashwas"

My SLR Magic HyperPrime LM 50mm T0.95 Review!: Leica Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

Another user's experience with the RF coupled version of the lens.

 

[StephenPatterson]

Re: EXTERNAL LINK: Owner Review of SLRMagic 50/0.95 posted in dpreview "Leica Talk"

I realize there is now a concerted effort by SLR Magic to discredit anyone who speaks negatively about this lens, but isn't the whole point of reviewing products that both positives and negatives are discovered and shared? When I look on Amazon I want to hear from people who have purchased and used the product and hear their first hand experiences (good and bad), not just the marketing hype from the company or gear bloggers who accept advertising money and free samples.

As for this review it pretty much mirrors my own comments, namely that the lens, when properly calibrated, is capable of producing some really nice images, but mechanically has issues.

Finally I see on LeicaLiker that Andrew Chan from SLR Magic is making the claim that:

"Every lens returned has no focus issues. We have customers not using magnifiers for assist or needing to use diopters that may not be 100% perfect for their eyes and it is a difficult situation for us. To see clearly we need to stack two multipliers so it is impossible to shoot 100% accurate with no assistance"

Well, I know this is a patently false statement. My first lens was so far out of calibration that nothing was in focus at any range. The second lens I received was much better (but that's the one that had the aperture ring fall apart). As nothing changed with my camera or rangefinder the problem could only have been with the lens.

 

[Brian S]

Re: EXTERNAL LINK: Owner Review of SLRMagic 50/0.95 posted in dpreview "Leica Talk"

~10 years ago, I bought a Canon 50/0.95 off of Ebay for $200. Put it on my Canon 7, focus was perfect from the start. No adjustment required for the then 40-year old camera and lens, purchased years apart. To state that their customers just cannot focus a 50mm F0.95 lens is foolish. Canon never made such statements, and 50 years later: the lens is still fully operational.

I have seen one possible explanation which reconciles the manufacturer's statement that the returned lenses focus properly and those of customers that it does not: the lens is too heavy and long and deforms the mount enough to throw the rangefinder cam out of position. A movement of 0.01mm is enough to ruin the focus. I've worked on lenses where "wobble" in the helical caused problems with the RF calibration.

 

[StephenPatterson]

Re: EXTERNAL LINK: Owner Review of SLRMagic 50/0.95 posted in dpreview "Leica Talk"

Brian, the LM version of the Hyperprime is calibrated to account for the weight of the lens hanging in the mount, pulling away from the roller cam. Supporting the lens in your hand will actually cause the rangefinder patch to move significantly and be out of calibration. This was demonstrated to me by Andrew Chan, and I ran tests on my third lens to confirm (with two M9s that had just been serviced by Leica NJ) that the calibration was only correct when the lens was allowed to sag.

 

[Brian S]

Re: EXTERNAL LINK: Owner Review of SLRMagic 50/0.95 posted in dpreview "Leica Talk"

Most users will support the weight of a lens when using it, habit with me on my long lenses on the SLR. The company should change the calibration process to accommodate the weight of the lens be supported by the photographer.

I'll bet I could hack this thing into a Canon 7 mount. If I find one on Ebay for the same price as my two Canon 50/0.95's in a few years.

 

[milesab]

Re: EXTERNAL LINK: Owner Review of SLRMagic 50/0.95 posted in dpreview "Leica Talk"

As the other thread has been closed I thought I should post my latest experiences with the SLR Magic Hyperprime T0.95. I had originally posted on this forum as I was having issues focussing the lens on my Leica M9. The lens seemed to be front focusing. I was concerned that this might be a common problem with the lenses so I posted some examples (in this forum) and had feedback from a number of members. In parallel I was in regular contact with SLR Magic (Andrew) to discuss how to go forwards. I also have to mention that SLR Magic were even responding to my emails during weekends (out of office hours) which I was quite surprised about.

I ran a few tests with the lens and also bought the Spyder Lenscal in order to have the same focusing chart as SLR Magic. After seeing the test results SLR Magic I agreed with SLR Magic to send the lens back for adjustment, which I did (with the shipping costs paid for by SLR Magic).

As I was going to Photokina 2 weeks later I agreed to collect the lens from SLR Magic at the event. There were two benefits to this. Firstly, that there would be limited possibility of any damage to lens compared to sending the lens via UPS. Secondly, I could test the lens with my camera so if further adjustment to the lens were necessary SLR Magic could see the results with the combination of my camera and lens.

I tested the lens at Photokina with the Spyder Lenscal and it nailed the shots. Focus was good even at minimum distance. I also tried a few face shots and some still life objects. All shots were in focus and I was very pleased with the results.

So in summing up while I did have a focusing problem initially with the lens SLR Magic have been very helpful in solving this problem. The level of support has been very good. I have been enjoying this lens not only on the M9 but also on the Fuji X-Pro1. I thought it was worth providing my full experience with the lens and the company. The good and the bad.

 

[StephenPatterson]

Re: EXTERNAL LINK: Owner Review of SLRMagic 50/0.95 posted in dpreview "Leica Talk"

milesab, I'm very glad that you were able to get your Hyperprime recalibrated, and as Ashwin and others have reported this lens has some wonderful optics and is capable of producing nice images (the quality of the bokeh being debatable).

I would point out, however, that Andrew Chan's comment from a few days ago that "Every lens returned has no focus issues..." and your experience do not reconcile. It's unfortunate that SLR Magic cannot just admit that some of their LM lenses experience calibration problems and not put the blame on their customers.

 

[Jack]

Re: EXTERNAL LINK: Owner Review of SLRMagic 50/0.95 posted in dpreview "Leica Talk"

Stephen: I am cautioning you to be very careful about what you say on this forum and in this thread specifically. You've made your point, and folks have heard you, so no sense continually repeating your position on their comment back to you. Any more and I'll consider it a personal attack, will remove your comments and you'll be subject to a temporary or even permanent ban here at GetDPI.

Thank you in advance for your compliance with our rules.

 

[Brian S]

Re: EXTERNAL LINK: Owner Review of SLRMagic 50/0.95 posted in dpreview "Leica Talk"

Milesab's lens was front focusing, meaning the optics were too far from the image plane to agree with the rangefinder. If the lens was calibrated as free-standing, that means it "leans forward" and the RF image registers a closer focus distance than when the lens is supported by the photographer. As the lens is calibrated in this position, the focus will be correct. As the lens weight is balanced, the RF pickup is pushed backwards, towards infinity. This means the photographer will move the focus of the lens Closer for the RF to agree with it. It should then front-focus. This is one possible explanation. If the RF image is observed to move as the lens is handled on the camera, then it is the reason for focus error. It could be the weight of the lens causing it to bow down, or it could be slop in the helical. From memory of the misfocused image, it looked like 0.02mm shift in the RF calibration.

The lens is an 12-element (edited as per review below), all spherical surfaces. It is very long, meaning the light bundles travel through the lens at more shallow angles than they would in a "squat" lens like the Canon 50/0.95. This could be for two reasons: accommodate a digital sensor, and reduce spherical aberration/focus shift. BUT: this means the lens is long, and heavy and might not maintain good RF calibration. If it is a weight issue, not much can be done. If it is slop in the helical, then one with tighter tolerances is required.

There was an earlier 9 element version of this lens, shorter and lighter. This design should be revisited.

Just the laws of Physics. There will be a quiz at the end of the thread. Introducing aspherical surfaces to the 9 element design to reduce focus shift.

 

[Vivek]

Re: EXTERNAL LINK: Owner Review of SLRMagic 50/0.95 posted in dpreview "Leica Talk"

There was an earlier 9 element version of this lens, shorter and lighter. This design should be revisited.

Which lens?

The one in question is being sold as a faster lens than the f/0.95 versions (i.e T = 0.95).

The heaviness comes from the use of Lanthanum glass. People who are familiar with the Vivitar Series 1 lenses from the 1970s know how heavy they are. It is similar type of glass advertised as being used in these SLR Magic lenses.

BTW, I do applaud SLR Magic folks for their creations but I think it is big risk for them to do the RF coupled versions.

If the problems are only related to the focus errors, the new M (no name) would be good platform with EVF focusing.

 

[Brian S]

Re: EXTERNAL LINK: Owner Review of SLRMagic 50/0.95 posted in dpreview "Leica Talk"

The first prototype 50/0.95 SLRMagic lens was a smaller, lighter 9 element design. The 11 element lens was selected for production.

 

[Double Negative]

Re: EXTERNAL LINK: Owner Review of SLRMagic 50/0.95 posted in dpreview "Leica Talk"

Well, FWIW here's another review of the lens.

SLR Magic HyperPrime LM 50mm T0.95

 

[Brian S]

Re: EXTERNAL LINK: Owner Review of SLRMagic 50/0.95 posted in dpreview "Leica Talk"

Does anyone have a link to the block diagram of the optical formula? I had read one site stating it was 11, see now it is 12 elements. I'd love to see the block diagram, and track the splitting of the elements/groups from a classic lens.

 

[StephenPatterson]

Re: EXTERNAL LINK: Owner Review of SLRMagic 50/0.95 posted in dpreview "Leica Talk"

Stephen: I am cautioning you to be very careful about what you say on this forum and in this thread specifically. You've made your point, and folks have heard you, so no sense continually repeating your position on their comment back to you. Any more and I'll consider it a personal attack, will remove your comments and you'll be subject to a temporary or even permanent ban here at GetDPI.

Thank you in advance for your compliance with our rules.

How is my discussion of this lens and this company in any way a personal attack? When my comments have been limited to discussions of the lens in question and the customer service of the company involved how can that in any way be considered personal? All of my comments about individuals within SLR Magic have been confined to their roles within the company, so please explain how that is different than discussing Leica and Stefan Daniels' LCD repair policy for the M8 (a topic that has generated enormous dissatisfaction) or other occurrences where members expressed opinions and experiences about photographic equipment and the companies who build it. Is it only permitted to be unhappy with large companies and not small ones?

 

[slrmagic]

Re: EXTERNAL LINK: Owner Review of SLRMagic 50/0.95 posted in dpreview "Leica Talk"

We do not post MTF curves or Optical design. We never post anything technical about any of our lenses. We have the basic specifications and users can buy the lens as they wish. We show this information to our reviewers if seen face to face. For example one well acclaimed lens reviewer on RF lenses from Netherlands came to visit us at Photokina and we showed him the design and specs at the booth. I will keep the name confidential till the review is out. Steve Huff has also seen the optical design face to face in Los Angeles as well as others who have asked

The question on the blocks can be disclosed and the lens consists of 12 elements in 7 groups.

There are currently two brands that can make a 0.95 lens and due to the thin depth of field a small degree of tolerance must be allowed. Usually the camera and lens should be sent in for pairing. For Leica lens it should only be sent to Solms. For SLR Magic lens it should only be sent to us in Hong Kong. When we pair the lens with a camera it will work really well with that camera but then when you change camera body the focus will not be as accurate due to tolerance in the camera body RF cam. We consider the shift of front or back focus depending on the camera body to be within tolerance for the lenses that were returned and not that the lens has issues.

A customer of ours with a Leica Noctilux had back focus issues with his HyperPrime LM lens. He sent his M9 camera and Noctilux lens to Solms and the camera was re-calibrated. After recalibration the Noctilux still works and the difference is the HyperPrime also worked with no adjustments needed to the lens. What this means is a slight tolerance in the camera RF cam can really affect a f/0.92 lens focus accuracy and usually slight pairing is needed for best results. We offer this service at no cost in Hong Kong. We have had many customers leave their camera with us to do this for best results. It is also the reason why we are only selling the LM version of this lens in Hong Kong only now.

Kind rgds.,
Andrew

 

[slrmagic]

Re: EXTERNAL LINK: Owner Review of SLRMagic 50/0.95 posted in dpreview "Leica Talk"

Brian S,

We did not make the smaller prototype 50mm f/0.95 lens at the end because Steve Huff saw the sample images and did not like the lens. He rather we make a lens with higher image quality even if it meant a higher price as M camera shooters shoot on an M for quality and not for affordability. With the results of the current HyperPrime 50mm T0.95 and the feedback received by owners we totally agree with him and glad we listened. The other design was much lighter but not at all comparable to the current lens in terms of image quality.

 

[Brian S]

Re: EXTERNAL LINK: Owner Review of SLRMagic 50/0.95 posted in dpreview "Leica Talk"

As the company has replied, and we have their attention, I will repeat this statement: SLRMagic is a new company, introducing a high-end lens to compete with Leica. When Nikon did this in the 1940s, their camera -the Nikon I- and lenses were submitted to nationally recognized camera technician's for a "strip-down" report. Marty Forscher did the report, the rest is history. My report: my 1948 collapsible Leica Mount Nikkor 5cm f2 is mechanically and optically as good as the day it was made.
My opinion: SLRmagic should submit the lens to a third-party technician such as DAG or Sherry Krauter for a mechanical and optical report.

On the 12-element in 7-group using Lanthanum glass; my guess would be start with a classic Planar, split the elements and groups to elements of lesser power, and layout the design to reduce angle of incidence of light bundles going through the lens. Reduce spherical aberration without using aspherics. Similar to the Nikkor-N 5cm F1.1 of 1956, but more splitting and stretching of the design.

So where's the 9-element lens right now?

 

[Brian S]

Re: EXTERNAL LINK: Owner Review of SLRMagic 50/0.95 posted in dpreview "Leica Talk"

I would also like to add this: most of the optical firms that support the scientific and technical market are capable of designing and building a T0.95 lens. Some of these lenses are amazing, one in the collection has the metal of the barrel specially formulated to match the index of expansion of the optics. $40K per copy, 25 years ago. makes Leica look cheap.

The hard part of bringing an advanced lens to market is quality control when cost has to be held to what a consumer can bear. When you have a big budget, and can have a team of optical engineers design to your spec- anything is possible. Keeping them within reason, ...

 

[StephenPatterson]

Re: EXTERNAL LINK: Owner Review of SLRMagic 50/0.95 posted in dpreview "Leica Talk"

Usually the camera and lens should be sent in for pairing. For Leica lens it should only be sent to Solms. For SLR Magic lens it should only be sent to us in Hong Kong. When we pair the lens with a camera it will work really well with that camera but then when you change camera body the focus will not be as accurate due to tolerance in the camera body RF cam.

Kind rgds.,
Andrew

Andrew, are you aware that Leica has not "paired" cameras and lenses since 1930? It is true that customers sometimes send cameras and lenses at the same time to Solms, but the components are always independently calibrated to the spec and not "paired". That is the beauty of the Leica M rangefinder system, namely that any lens (including the 50/0.95 Noctilux) will always work with any body. Might it be that the issue is something besides "the tolerance in the camera body RF cam"?

 

[slrmagic]

Re: EXTERNAL LINK: Owner Review of SLRMagic 50/0.95 posted in dpreview "Leica Talk"

Andrew, are you aware that Leica has not "paired" cameras and lenses since 1930? It is true that customers sometimes send cameras and lenses at the same time to Solms, but the components are always independently calibrated to the spec and not "paired". That is the beauty of the Leica M rangefinder system, namely that any lens (including the 50/0.95 Noctilux) will always work with any body. Might it be that the issue is something besides "the tolerance in the camera body RF cam"?

Stephen, I am not sure where you got that information they do not do this since 1930 but on June 29th 2012 this is what the technician told me by email. I will leave the technicians name out so it is not personal but if you call Leica in Solms they will have the same answer for you. I was inquiring about the 35/2 that came with the M9 as a kit set as well as Noctilux that is still under adjustment process in Solms.

"For a 100% guarantee the camera and the lens have to be sent together with the camera with the explicit order to adjust them together."

Kind rgds.,
Andrew