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An interesting article in the Guardian

D&A

Well-known member
Sara Lee doesn't work for any government as a specific industry overseer.

The article isn't a "news article", it is a Blog post under a sub-heading of Culture > Art and Design > Camera Kit Exposed > Photography Blog.

IMO, on-line Blogs are an euphemism for interactive editorial commentary. Editorials in news vehicles commenting on electronic products or cars or what-ever often offer personal opinions including likes and dislikes. Some reviewers even endorse the product being reviewed by buying it. It was clear in the blog that she bought the ME ... it wasn't given to her by Leica, nor purchased by the Guardian for her.

Mt. Everest from a mole-hill comes to mind.

-Marc
Marc, one of the pitfalls of my not having read the article purposely up to this point, was possibly not fully understanding that her article came under the general heading of an editorial. If that's the case, then most certainly personal views expressed and possibly even endorsements can or may be considered acceptable norms. I guess hypothetically one might question whether someone who holds a position where normally their written views are supposed to be unbiased and without influence from commercial sources, is also allowed in the same or similar publications to express personal views or endorsements under the heading of an editorial. Again my comments were not specifically related to her article but in a general response to some of the postings and views expressed in this thread. That was the intent of my initial length response, to simply question when and where in today's society it is or is not acceptable to express ones personal point of view along with the possibility of providing endorsement for a particular product. Other than that, I agree, no need to make a mountain out of a molehill....which I guess I most certainly provided a helping hand in doing just that! :)

Everyone have a Great New year too!

Dave (D&A)
 
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Shashin

Well-known member
Again I'm not commenting specifically on the Sara Lee article which I haven't read, but maybe a similarly important question that NB23 raised, which simply refers to why articles like this might raise the eyebrows of some, while others are simply enthused, excited or possible amused when such pieces are written. My questions and comments are simply food for thought....nothing more. On that note, it's morning and I'm hungry :)

Dave (D&A)
But NB23 is not raising legitimate concerns. In fact, he did not raise a concern, but made a pronouncement. He is just bashing people without any real thought. And his "reasoning" was questionable. NB23 states she is not a "real" photojournalist while admitting he is not one either (but she is a staff photographer for a newspaper). Here is a young woman at the beginning of her career in a job that pays about as well as a Walmart greeter. A job that is mostly going out and shooting a politician's speech, a demonstration, an opening of a new shopping center, or whatever the editor needs, mostly mundane stuff. It is a competitive job however. This profession where publishing your own material is important. Yet she is not a "real" professional? She is not "allowed" to write such material focused on her craft? Exactly where is the conflict of interest?

But it gets betters. NB23 then accuses her of not even writing the article at all! She just put her name on some marketing written by someone else from a company. This is a rational argument and not simply sour grapes? You are really going to go far in journalism if that ever comes out.

Marketing is used to sell products. But one thing marketers are not is manipulative where they try to fool people. Because once the audience finds out they have been manipulated, they have a very negative reaction. I worked for a Japanese camera company. Part of my position was to write international press releases. I also worked directly with the product teams which included the marketing folks. This is not a piece of marketing. You do not insult people in you marketing--you want dentists to buy your cameras. You do not complain about the prices and have to resort to secondhand gear--not a very positive image and marketing is always positive, at least for products. You do not try to fool your customers because the chances are the secret will come out.

Had this been a glowing book, theater, travel, or movie review, no one would have questioned the article as a piece of marketing written by a ghost writer.

I have had an eclectic career. I have been fortunate to work both in the newspaper and camera businesses. I also now a lot of photographers that work really hard to build careers. The civilians that have photography as a hobby simply don't understand these fields. But they are willing to throw out condescending opinions that are based more in ignorance than insight. Most are cheap shots that sound like paranoia. The trouble is you are actually insulting many people at places like GetDPI.

(Naturally, he is also implying the OP fell for this "marketing" ploy. Jono does not strike me as someone to be taken in by cheap marketing. He is not someone to post carp.)
 

NB23

New member
Shashin, you are maybe too sensitive. I have not been out of line. And yes, I went as far as thinking (the horror!) that it could have been a text comlletely written by Leica themselves. This is not unseen of, in the media world.

And of course, you are wrong on many accounts, especially in the media manipulating people part, as well as me not being a professional on the photography field (which is absolutely irrelevant, anyways.).
Unless the photographer in question is your wife, may I kindly suggest you to relax?
 
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jonoslack

Active member
HI There
First of all I thought your post was excellent Shashin - thank you. I've been out and about since I posted the link - I've read most of the posts through - and trying to think of a good reply. The only thing I'd take issue with, is that that I wouldn't call the Guardian a 'small' newspaper, certainly not in terms of reputation - it's been the voice of the intellectual side of the slightly left of centre politics in the UK for decades.

(Naturally, he is also implying the OP fell for this "marketing" ploy. Jono does not strike me as someone to be taken in by cheap marketing. He is not someone to post carp.)
If it was a marketing play, then I certainly 'fell for it' (in that I'm still quite sure that it isn't one). But that really isn't interesting, in fact, it isn't terribly interesting whether it's a marketing ploy or not! I simply enjoyed the article, without necessarily agreeing with all of it, and certainly without thinking that hard about it (I'm not sure that it deserves deep thought!).

What's more interesting to me though is NB23's part in the discussion: I remember reading somewhere that the perfect troll only needs to post one message to create a forum punch-up - in this context - even though, as you point out, he's insulted almost everyone (only by implication of course), he's still needed to come back and stoke the fire! Which suggests that he isn't a troll at all!

It's not common to see these kind of ad hominem posts on GetDPI, and I'm pleased to see that after a ruffle it's turned into a normal and civilised conversation.

Any way, thanks for your intelligent, relaxed and inciteful post (and for thinking I wouldn't be taken in by cheap marketing . . . . I'm not so sure :ROTFL:)

Happy New Year to everyone - NB23 included
 
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dude163

Active member
Actually, after re-reading that article, I registered for Dentistry courses, I think its a shill for the Royal College of Dental Surgeons!
 

Chris C

Member
.....And thus article was clearly aimed to the soccer-mom's husbands out there.......
..... ("Soccer-moms" is simply a pejorative--it has no place in any reasoned argument).....
Err. It was the Guardian........... and the game played with ball and foot is called football.............. and female parents are Mums.

So, if you must; that's 'football-mums'.

Happy New Year etc.

.................. Chris
 

topoxforddoc

New member
I read the article and it had a certain resonance. A good friend of mine, Lara, is a pro, shooting features. She had a seminal moment about 5 years ago when she bought her first Leica (M6, Noctilux, 75 lux) for the princely sum of £750 at a pawn shop in London. She had been a Nikon shooter and had almost given up, as she felt the camera got in the way.

Now she loves her work again. About 3 years ago, I met Dr Kaufmann at the Goodwood Revival. Lara was there, as she shoots there every year. I introduced Dr Kaufmann to her and she has been very lucky in getting some support directly from him.

However, trying to get support from Leica UK is more problematic. Another friend of mine headlines a series of BBC1 Science TV programmes, which is syndicated all over the world and is on Discovery. He is regarded as one of the key individuals responsible for inspiring science in kids in the UK. He is also a keen photographer and has had a play with some Leica lenses on his 5D some years ago. He is always seen in his programmes taking photos on his travels around the world. Tried to get Leica UK interested in sponsoring a M9 - not interested!

So I don't think Sarah Lee got hers free or sponsored. I bet she paid hard cash for hers - good for her. And she likes it too!

Charlie
Charlie Chan
 

topoxforddoc

New member
OK, it was a new M9 and 24 lux, when the M9 hadn't yet been announced. She got one of the early batches on long term/permanent loan. Since then, she has had other cameras to try, but nothing other than short term testing with feedback.

The other guy, who didn't get anything, was Professor Brian Cox, presenter of the BBC1 series, 'Wonders of the Solar System', Wonders of the Universe' and more.
 
V

Vivek

Guest
Thank you, Charlie, for obliging to my request. :)

Loaner equipment from manufacturers to working professionals, in my view, is quite a symbiotic thing.

We are not dealing with a "professional reviewer" here.

Again, I appreciate you response.

Dr. Brian Cox: Not many know if he can shoot anything from behind the camera. I hope he bought some Leica stuff. I am sure he can afford them. :)
 

topoxforddoc

New member
Thank you, Charlie, for obliging to my request. :)

Loaner equipment from manufacturers to working professionals, in my view, is quite a symbiotic thing.

We are not dealing with a "professional reviewer" here.

Again, I appreciate you response.

Dr. Brian Cox: Not many know if he can shoot anything from behind the camera. I hope he bought some Leica stuff. I am sure he can afford them. :)
It is a symbiotic thing. Every article or book she writes includes a reference to Leica. She's not paid to write the references. She just does it as she just loves the cameras and what they can do.

As for Brian, he's ok pretty good behind a camera. He certainly gets to plenty of exotic places. He makes sure that he is seen in every episode taking photos. It's one of his passions.

Charlie
 

topoxforddoc

New member
Charlie, you have some lovely pictures on your site. I like your bio as well. All the best.
Ashwin,

Many thanks for your kind words. Photography acts as a good foil for my day job. I love live music and I'm lucky enough to have friends, who give me passes for the Pit.

Best wishes,

Charlie
 

Sharokin

New member
I worked for multiple metro papers in Seattle and Denver that were given huge discounts and free high end long glass from Canon to make the switch. It worked. The rep from Canon went out to lunch with many of us on staff and built a very friendly relationship with all the top shooters. I know Nikon has done the same.
Personally I was offered to borrow a Leica M film camera and three lenses to use for unspecified amount of time to "get to love the camera"
Do I believe Sarah loves her Leica? Yes! Do I believe Leica was somehow directly or indirectly involved in this article? Probably.
 

topoxforddoc

New member
Please let me clarify myself. The long term loaner/gift of the M9/24 lux was to my friend, Lara, who is a pro features photographer. I have no idea about Sarah Lee's ME; I suspect she paid for hers.

Lara's M9/24 lux came directly from Solms. It had nothing to do with Leica UK. I used Brian Cox' story to illustrate the fact that it is unlikely that Sarah Lee got any support, unless she too had met Dr Kaufmann.
 
V

Vivek

Guest
I have to apologize for my dyslexia and mixing up the names. Sorry about the confusion!

Please let me clarify myself. The long term loaner/gift of the M9/24 lux was to my friend, Lara, who is a pro features photographer. I have no idea about Sarah Lee's ME; I suspect she paid for hers.

Lara's M9/24 lux came directly from Solms. It had nothing to do with Leica UK. I used Brian Cox' story to illustrate the fact that it is unlikely that Sarah Lee got any support, unless she too had met Dr Kaufmann.
 

Zlatko Batistich

New member
I'm gullible enough to believe that it's a puff piece from an embarrassingly happy photographer who has discovered DRF's. No hidden commercial agenda beyond maybe raising interest in her work through an interesting article in favor of something other than an a Canikon DSLR that everyone else uses.
I agree ... it's a good and interesting article. She enjoys the camera, even though it busted her bank account. Accusing her of a hidden marketing agenda is patently unfair.
 
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