The new "S" - worth to upgrade from S2?

[Paratom]

I guess it also comes down to the type of photography.

For example it is quite a difference if you want to take images of someone sitting near still at a table vs. taking images of kids unpacking presents under the Christmas tree.

The other thing is DOF and if you are forced to almost allways shoot wide open as soons as the light is not that bright.

So I think I would allways own one additional camera for really low light, but I think the percentage how often I wouldcould use the S-system would benefit from 1-1.5 stop better ISO.
I have had quite some situations (lets say during daylight but inside where I just got in the 1/30-1/60 range at f2.5 and only got part of the images due to those limitations.
The more I think about the more I believe to would really benefit from the new S....but the cost for "updating" is steep.
But then you also get the 3 year warranty and you also have a higher value, so in the end one doesnt "loose" the full update cost.
At least I am not in a hurry.

 

[Mark Gowin]

Tom, in my opinion the sum of the 80+ improvements in the new S over the S2, the new S is worth serious consideration. If money were no object, I would have already put my S2 up for sale and bought the new S along with a 30-90mm zoom. As it is, I am still very happy with my S2 and will have to be patient about getting the new S - the 30-90mm zoom will be my next S related purchase.

 

[fotografz]

Since there are first reports out from the new "S" I wondered who of you S2 owners is planning to upgrade?
Improved higher ISO and even better color compared to S2 are the factors which I would be interested in.
Higher speed, better display, gps would be nice to have for me but nothing I really need.

The main problems seems used prices for S2 being lower than I had hoped for.

I even wonder if the used S2 prices will go up a little after the first bunch of cameras from "Upgraders" have been sold.

So who will upgrade or not and what are your reasons?

I think in actual practice, for most shots, people will be hard pressed to tell the difference.

Since the sensor is the same in the end, I'd be curious how the RAW color results are better? How is that quantifiable?

I'd need to see how improved the ISO is ... 1250 and 1600 are just a whisker different in reality.

Medium Format Digital is a very expensive undertaking if you upgrade every time there are some incremental improvements. If the S had jumped to 50 meg, or did some other obvious improvement, like Hasselblad did for the H4D with True Focus, then there is a clearer cut reason to move to a newer model if you need those improvements.

It may be that the actual upgrade cost will be more than most people think it will. Leica doesn't have a trade policy like Phase and Hassey, so owners are on their own, or have to deal with retail differences from a dealer. Cha-ching!

One of the issues that will become apparent over time is that slight improvements tend to even out later in terms of resale returns between two similar MFD models.

While my options may change, right now I see no compelling reason to pay so much money for "nice to have", but minor improvements. The value in these ultra expensive choices like the S2 is in the using against a need that justifies it, for as long as you can.

In contrast, the expensive choice of a Leica M Mono was a no brainer for me, for what I shoot, and how different it is from what I have.

-Marc

 

[Petster]

Couldn't agree more.

 

[GMB]

Marc,
That certainly is the rational and reasonable assessment, and I completely agree. And it is for the reasons set out by you that I don't intend to upgrade. (I rather spend the money on the zoom and/or the 24 mm.)

But I can also see that some folks for whom the money is no object or who have extensively used the S2 so that it paid of decided to get the latest and newest.

 

[fotografz]

Marc,
That certainly is the rational and reasonable assessment, and I completely agree. And it is for the reasons set out by you that I don't intend to upgrade. (I rather spend the money on the zoom and/or the 24 mm.)

But I can also see that some folks for whom the money is no object or who have extensively used the S2 so that it paid off, decided to get the latest and newest.

I would agree with that, and count myself as one who has gotten a lot of value from the S2 already ... which is why I leave my options open until any money designated for gear purchases is gone one way or the other.

Frankly, I was hoping for a more substantial incursion into 35MM DSLR territory ... and have subjectively decided the new S wasn't there yet, so I secured a Sony A99 for use over the next few years.


With the H5D, Hasselblad has presented me with an almost identical upgrade scenario. Lateral move with marginal real world advantages ... unless I go Multi-Shot.

-Marc

 

[Paratom]

Marc,
I understand you wont upgrade when you had hoped for more MP and a more 35mm-like handling.
In my case 36MP is as much as I need (it is even a little more than I need).
In regards to the 35mm handling I just dont believe that it is possible to make a system with such big and heavy lenses down to AF speed or handling of ff DSLRs.
The one thing I was not sure is if the CMOS sensor of the new M does a good job, if they could use it in the "S" which probably would further improve the higher ISO and allow life-view.
Regarding upgrade cost we should keep in mind that one does also get another 3 year warranty and also the resale value in 2-3 years of a "S" will be higher than that of a "S2".
Still a lot of money though.

I would be really interested to test-run a new S side by side with my S2 and see how much improvement is there.

 

[GMB]

In regards to the 35mm handling I just dont believe that it is possible to make a system with such big and heavy lenses down to AF speed or handling of ff DSLRs.

Some DSLR lenses (such as 70-200 2.8 zooms) are heavier than most S lenses, so the reason must be a different one. Actually, when I was at Photokina the guy who showed me the new S (and who admitted that autofocus was only marginally improved) also stated the Canikon have years advantage of autofocus experience and technology. The interesting question is whether the current bottleneck for better autofocus is the cameral or the lenses.

 

[fotografz]

Marc,
I understand you wont upgrade when you had hoped for more MP and a more 35mm-like handling.
In my case 36MP is as much as I need (it is even a little more than I need).
In regards to the 35mm handling I just dont believe that it is possible to make a system with such big and heavy lenses down to AF speed or handling of ff DSLRs.
The one thing I was not sure is if the CMOS sensor of the new M does a good job, if they could use it in the "S" which probably would further improve the higher ISO and allow life-view.
Regarding upgrade cost we should keep in mind that one does also get another 3 year warranty and also the resale value in 2-3 years of a "S" will be higher than that of a "S2".
Still a lot of money though.

I would be really interested to test-run a new S side by side with my S2 and see how much improvement is there.

I didn't say that I hoped for more MP ... I said more MP, or some other obvious difference, would make the upgrade value more apparent.

Warranty means zip once it is gone on either a S2 or S. BTW, has Leica made it clear that the new S warranty is transferable like on the S2? Or is it like the M9, not transferable? I also wonder if a MACK warranty can be had for the S2 now?

IMO, your last sentence is the one that really matters.

-Marc

 

[Paratom]

Some DSLR lenses (such as 70-200 2.8 zooms) are heavier than most S lenses, so the reason must be a different one. Actually, when I was at Photokina the guy who showed me the new S (and who admitted that autofocus was only marginally improved) also stated the Canikon have years advantage of autofocus experience and technology. The interesting question is whether the current bottleneck for better autofocus is the cameral or the lenses.

Georg, if you look for example at the Canon 85/1.2II it is considerable slower than the lighter Canon 85/1.8 and many say its the weight of the glass inside the lens.

I have to add one thing - even if Leica admits that Canikon have some years advantage - allready the AF of the S2 seems to be one of the most accurate AF I have experienced in any camera.

 

[glenerrolrd]

So what is a warranty extension worth ? Maybe less than when the S2 was introduced . When I bought my S2 almost exactly 2 years ago ..I bought an extra year of warranty (in this case a bad bet ) but others I know had more than one warranty claim . I decided ..no problems in the last two years so I am not getting a 3rd year on my warranty . A year of warranty was priced at $1700 .

If I used my S2 as hard as I use my M s ..I would adjust the new purchase price to reflect the value of 3 years of warranty . So my calculation would be $22000 less less $5100 warranty less say $10000 trade in ...upgrade would be about $7000 ....but you still have to put out $12000 in cash for an evolution of the product . And as Marc points out would you buy the warranty at that price ?

I am quite happy with Leica s approach to the new S ...logical improvements to a great product without ripping out the core .

 

[Paratom]

So what is a warranty extension worth ? Maybe less than when the S2 was introduced . When I bought my S2 almost exactly 2 years ago ..I bought an extra year of warranty (in this case a bad bet ) but others I know had more than one warranty claim . I decided ..no problems in the last two years so I am not getting a 3rd year on my warranty . A year of warranty was priced at $1700 .

If I used my S2 as hard as I use my M s ..I would adjust the new purchase price to reflect the value of 3 years of warranty . So my calculation would be $22000 less less $5100 warranty less say $10000 trade in ...upgrade would be about $7000 ....but you still have to put out $12000 in cash for an evolution of the product . And as Marc points out would you buy the warranty at that price ?

I am quite happy with Leica s approach to the new S ...logical improvements to a great product without ripping out the core .

If you dont run into any problems warranty is worth nothing, if you run into problems it can be worth a lot - so its hard to answer. Leica says the included warranty (and fast service) is worth 3k.

... and to be honest: When I bought my own S2 I bought it with just the 1 year standard warranty. So no-as a non-pro standard user I would not pay 3k for the extended warranty/service. As a pro I would buy it for sure.

 

[Stuart Richardson]

I would say there is another issue that is not often talked about -- the time and effort spent in getting a camera and lens setup that works flawlessly together. I find that Leica is spectacular when they are working, but they generally take some time to sort out their issues. Leica always stands behind their product, but I think they are so highly tweaked that it often takes some time to get them meshing perfectly together. For example, I am on my second S2 (the first did not AF properly from the start, so they replaced it), my second 70mm lens (it had a strange sharpness issue); my M9 had a CCD replacement under warranty, and many of my Leica lenses have been adjusted or serviced to match the camera. Don't get me started on the R9 and DMR...
My experience has been that after a troublesome first few months, Leica products settle in and perform extremely well for a long time. At the moment, both my M9 and S2 perform extremely well, and the upgrade would need to be pretty dramatic to make me part with a well performing kit.

 

[PeterA]

MF makes me all nervous and jittery - shooting with my M9 or monochrome makes me feel happy - easy decision to just say no 'upgrade' for me .

 

[Paratom]

MF makes me all nervous and jittery - shooting with my M9 or monochrome makes me feel happy - easy decision to just say no 'upgrade' for me .

Hi Peter,
but will you keep your S2? Or do you plan to get out of it?
For my taste the S2 (lenses) are kind on the limit regarding drawing attention with the gear.
On the other side the ratio of percentage of keepers (for me) from taken images with the S2 is very high. I think it is not so much the pure IQ but the big viewfinder of the S-System and also the precise focus.

I am a long time M user but I think at least once a year I find out that another one of my lenses needs some focus calibration.
It is a little bit of a love -hate story for me -Lots of love for the m-system, but occasional frustration.

 

[PeterA]

Hi Paratom,

The S2 is a keeper for me - it is all about the glass and I love the way the S2 lenses draw - with strobe and with natural light. More a studio camera than walk around though - for walk around (and sometimes studio work too)

...I make a lot more photos with M9 and now Monochrome - than any other of my too many systems - Leica M kills MF and 35mm DSLRs - small / compact /best lenses / everything manual and in my control - simple perfection.

I use a D800 for telephoto stuff.

Cheers
Pete