Expectations for the New M

[glenerrolrd]

Getting the new M will be an important event affecting my photography . I shoot primarily street and travel in color and work with two M bodies and 3-4 lenses . For my work, there is much to like in the specifications of the new M and yet an awareness that this is not going to be easy .

I ve handled the new M at ProPhotoPLus in NYC ..tried out the EVF and got a feel for the new body . I know Leica well having used pretty much every Leica camera since the M2 and the first SL . Suffered thru the launches of the M8,M9 and the S2 ..even used a DMR for a few years .

My expectations are that Leica will have solved many of the limitations of the M9 ( a product they rushed to market using old technology ) . The limitations of a weak in camera processor , in adequate buffer and a small capacity battery will be addressed. Weather sealing will slow my heart rate in a downpour ( I ve been lucky).

I know that the handling and feel of the camera ,the CRF viewing and discrete size and shape ..have been retained . The camera has evolved in form not changed .

The major improvements (that are different ) will all come from the move to CMOS .

1. Better high ISO performance .....the ability to render high IQ at ISO s above 640 . My expectation is that the new sensor will perform as an excellent CMOS sensor that has been optimized for low ISO performance . The goal will be to produce the very best IQ at base ISO and then work toward improvements at higher ISO s . This means that ISO 1600 would be a target for excellent high ISO IQ and that ISO 3200 and 6400 would be usable with diminished DR and color saturation.

2. EVF to open up the use of longer lenses ,macro etc . The EVF add on bodies are out there now in the micro4/3rd offerings . No need to debate the capabilities ,the Leica offering will be a Olympus EVF that exists today . My expectation is that it will open up the use of lenses such as the 135APO. My POV is that its not in any way an R solution (another topic) but that it can extend the capabilities of the kit by allowing the use of R lenses . (adding a 180 to my kit is much less bulk that carrying a DSLR to achieve a moderate telephoto).

I feel good that I understand the benefits and they are note worthy . The biggest question is the change from a CCD to CMOS sensor . How will it affect the aesthetic ? I am sure the new M will produce excellent IQ by any standard but I am not certain that I will like the new look .

(FYI I have spent the last 4 months working with Leica R lenses on the D800E bodies . The files will not be confused with a typical N/C/S CMOS rendering but they are different from the CCD files of the M9/S2).

 

[StephenPatterson]

I think your expectations are reasonable (especially high ISO performance) and agree this really comes down to how the new CMOS sensor will compare to the CCD. I recently sold my backup M9 and now use a Canon 5Diii as my second body.

It's more to carry, but I made the choice that the advantages of being a mature platform, with excellent high ISO performance, weather sealing (body and lenses) and overall outstanding IQ (especially with prime lenses) made it an easier decision.

I will admit that a part of my decision was based on possible down time and expense for my Leica gear, which I always worried about while in wet and misty weather, slogging through a rice paddy, or trying to navigate on some small boat. Now in such conditions I find myself putting the Leica away and letting the Canon take point.

 

[monza]

From experience, using long lenses hand-held on mirrorless with focus at the sensor is a challenge, without in body stabilization. Yes, it will be wonderful to be able to use these optics on the same body that uses standard M optics, but to nail the focus will require magnifying the image, which results in a very shaky view and loss of framing.

Perhaps they've found a method of focus peaking where accuracy doesn't suffer under standard EVF magnification. In my experience however, focus peaking gets you close, but magnification is required to actually nail the focus plane exactly.

In other words, expectations should be somewhat tempered, at least when it comes to using anything more than about 100mm on the new M, hand-held. Camera shake isn't much of an issue, any moreso than shooting an SLR with film; it's viewfinder shake while determining focus that's the problem. Not too difficult for static subjects, but a serious challenge even for very slow-moving subjects.

IOW, this should be counted as a bonus feature, for macro and occasional use. The other features of the M should dominate, if one is considering moving from the M9.

For those that shoot long lenses routinely, it's going to be an exercise in frustration...I suggest adapting long glass to an OMD (or lens conversion to A99) is a better solution if one shoots long lenses on a regular basis. Both of these cameras have stabilization and EVFs. Looking through an OMD with a long lens with IBIS enabled is a revelation; time seemingly slows down - no shakes! Or just carry a Canon with AF lenses.

 

[PeterA]

For me it will end up being quality of file using my lenses thank you very much.

All the other stuff is just - marmalade on toast - I prefer properly cooked bacon and eggs - sunny side up...

 

[robsteve]

I feel good that I understand the benefits and they are note worthy . The biggest question is the change from a CCD to CMOS sensor . How will it affect the aesthetic ? I am sure the new M will produce excellent IQ by any standard but I am not certain that I will like the new look .

(FYI I have spent the last 4 months working with Leica R lenses on the D800E bodies . The files will not be confused with a typical N/C/S CMOS rendering but they are different from the CCD files of the M9/S2).

Roger:

Having experienced the D800E myself, I think the switch from a CCD DMR to a CMOS D800E was a bit of a letdown. The D800E still has great image quality, but when pixel peeping, especially over 100iso, it looks more like scanned film than the perfection we would get with well focused DMR shots. This leads me to believe that it wasn't the anti-alias filter that was causing CMOS images to look different than CCD images, but that CMOS just images differently. Maybe like Kodachrome compared to Ektachrome.

If you are new to the M and never shot a M8, M9, DMR or S2, you probably will think the new M images are fantastic, especially if coming from another brand.

 

[edwardkaraa]

I have no expectations myself, except for the corner color shift that leica claims having resolved without resorting to shifted micro lenses. In fact, the corner performance seems a bit weak in the latest samples, even in small jpgs.

 

[Godfrey]

My expectations are very simple:

- It will be a fine Leica, an advance on the M9 in terms of responsiveness and features, lens compatibility and versatility. The ability to do Live View and capture video will expand the M's usefulness by quite a lot.

- It will be different from an M9 in terms of how it sees.

Every digital camera I've owned has a slightly different way of seeing. That's why I've owned so many different ones. The M9's eye is quite lovely, I'm very happy with it. The new M will most likely have a different eye ... new sensor, more pixels, different microlens setup, etc ... but until I have the camera in my hands I cannot and will not judge whether I like it more, less, or the same as the M9.

- It potentially can help simplify my camera gear by some measure. Its ability to do macro and long lens work means that I would have less need to keep my other TTL electronic and SLR bodies around, as those two things are most of what I do with them.

However, I've seen that a good deal of my attempt to simplify my gear hasn't really done much to do that, so I don't expect a miracle. Because all of my cameras are different, I find it a pleasure to use different ones in different circumstances. I don't need to sell any of them other than to satisfy an internal urge to less ownership of things. So, the likelihood is that buying a new M will just add another camera to the already overstuffed cabinet. Such it is. :-\

I look forward to the new M, without any haste or anxiousness. I'll be using the M9 for some years to come, I expect that if I decide to buy a new M it will be in 2014 or later. Leica will have plenty of time to work out any new product issues before I plunk my money down.

G

 

[glenerrolrd]

Roger:

Having experienced the D800E myself, I think the switch from a CCD DMR to a CMOS D800E was a bit of a letdown. The D800E still has great image quality, but when pixel peeping, especially over 100iso, it looks more like scanned film than the perfection we would get with well focused DMR shots. This leads me to believe that it wasn't the anti-alias filter that was causing CMOS images to look different than CCD images, but that CMOS just images differently. Maybe like Kodachrome compared to Ektachrome.

If you are new to the M and never shot a M8, M9, DMR or S2, you probably will think the new M images are fantastic, especially if coming from another brand.

Rob

I agree with your findings but believe the files can be closer than they first appear . Remember the various manufacturers are getting very different aesthetics from essentially the same sensors (D3x and A900 for example ) . The D800E files are very very good and in some situations every bit as good as the Leica DNG s .....but the aesthetic is greatly affected by the color calibration ,tone curve and in camera noise reduction .

Nikon shooters have no reason to modify the aesthetic or look . They use Nikon ..all the files look great and they season (process) to taste . Its only when you can compare a DMR that you miss the color rendering . Neither the M9 or the S2 matched the color of the DMR but you could process the files to appear similar . This is much more difficult with the D800E files and creating a repeatable process that I can automate has proved elusive .

I am hopeful that the new M files can be processed to retain the Leica look of the M8.M9 .S2 and DMR ...slightly different is fine but a common family aesthetic .

 

[algrove]

I certainly hope the latest "Images" posted by Leica are only a first attempt. Appears they were shot 5 months ago. So far I like my M9 and 5D3 images better.

 

[docmoore]

I certainly hope the latest "Images" posted by Leica are only a first attempt. Appears they were shot 5 months ago. So far I like my M9 and 5D3 images better.

The wild assumption is that Leica at this point knows what they are doing...in regards to CMOS Live View Video....if history allows us to prognosticate...then the results may be less than stellar.

I would assume that three generations forward will provide us with a usable CMOS rendition of the M....buyer beware....beta testing has become the norm for those who enter into the system at an early point.

If you have a workable system with a M8 8.2 9 or monochrome it may be worth watching the weeping and gnashing of teeth of the early adopters for a period of time prior to buying into the reality.

JMHO

Bob

 

[BANKER1]

Wow Bob. Having been a Canon user since my first F1 and later on to Hasselblad up to my current H4D60, I was very disappointed with Hasselblad's offering at Photokina. At that time, I was hoping Hasselblad was forward thinking enough to come up with a larger sensor version of the Leica. So that not being the case, I decided on the new M, but it will be my first Leica ever. The thinking was that the M would give me some more freedom than the very heavy Hassy for walking around photography. Last week I sorely missed my Hassy in Hawaii and was disappointed with my Canon files, so I have already been getting cold feet about the new M, and now I read your post. Decisions, decisions.

Greg

 

[Godfrey]

Buying and selling gear on the rumor of its quality is somewhat less than best practice. However, I am confident the new M will be a fine camera, despite the crappy sample photos.

I never believe in sample photos anyway.

G

 

[doug]

I never believe in sample photos anyway.

If the early sample photos were an indication of the camera's potential the Canon 5DII would never have left the dealer's shelves.

I certainly hope the latest "Images" posted by Leica are only a first attempt. Appears they were shot 5 months ago. So far I like my M9 and 5D3 images better.

Best to wait for production samples with production firmware to make comparisons. That's what Leica is selling, not prototypes with beta firmware.

 

[StephenPatterson]

Best to wait for production samples with production firmware to make comparisons. That's what Leica is selling, not prototypes with beta firmware.

I believe I could make a strong argument that my M8 was little more than a "prototype" for my M9. Certainly I felt that having to attach UV/IR filters and load new firmware to correct, or at least improve, issues such as magenta edge, made it feel as if I was a beta tester.

The leading edge is the bleeding edge.

 

[seakayaker]

I do not have any expectations. The new camera will be released and there will be a waiting list, then there will be lots of reviews and sample files to look at, followed by plenty of time to decide if I will spring for one.

I have discovered, for me anyway, Leica makes it easy for me to manage my expectations with their products.

. . . . . in the meantime, the M9 along with my MP and M6TTL meet my expectation.

I am sure a MM would meet my expectations as well but that will have to wait awhile longer.

 

[glenerrolrd]

I created this post as a response to an ongoing discussion of the IQ from the initial samples . My experience with each of the Leica introductions m8,m9,s2,mono etc is that I ve learned very little from preproduction samples . Even the early reviews seem to be handicapped by the new camera (beta) aspects and mismatched raw conversions .

In many cases (the S2 and MONO being exceptions ) the technology utilized is readily available and performance can be estimated or predicted by just looking at existing equipment .

The new M will be one of the most hyped new camera introductions in a while . Any new M would be. Expectations ..had I not been through this a few times ...are sure to be greatly above reality . (the R solution ..seriously ?) .

The reality is that any prospective purchaser should know a lot about the performance of the new M without every seeing it . Leica is not going to produce a 23MP M that doesn t have superb IQ with M lenses . (A D800E has superb IQ with R glass . We saw that Sony could tune their last generation sensor to produce excellent color with zeiss glass on the A900.) Leica will get this right hopefully either at or soon after introduction.

The aesthetic I believe will be different ..the m8,m9 and S2 all had similar sensors and were tuned to a specific color rendition . CCD files look different from CMOS. This isn t something I will be able to determine from preproduction samples. The S2 files were terrible for months until Leica and Adobe finally synched their processes. This is important to only a small percentage of the potential M users . (those that are looking for continuity of the Leica look in their work ).

I am not on the fence about the new M ....I will get one asap . My expectations is that it will be far from perfect and that it will take some real effort to adapt post processing to the new sensor . I expect that it will be flawed in some significant way and require a trip to Solms for update and that several firmware updates will be required . I will miss the CCD look as I did when the DMR finally had to go (neither the M9 or the S2 ever matched the color of the DMR ).

But I will receive some important benefits as well. I will forget the struggles I ve had shooting at dark with the M9 and grow to think that ISO1600 can actually be used without significant degrading of IQ. I will no longer sweat bullets when shooting in a downpour or at the beach . I won t have 4-5 batteries in my pockets just in case. I will miss less opportunities waiting for the buffer to clear . And ..I will still be happy I am using my M s ....its just going to take some time to get there .

I don t think I need samples from the Dr to feel I know enough.

 

[kkdanamatt]

I ordered an M the day after it was announced, so I should get one of the first examples to hit the retail market.
My thinking was "well, I've got M glass and R glass (including a Leica APO-Telyt-R 280mm F/2.8), what could be wrong?"
But now I'm have second thoughts, especially about trying to use focus peaking. I've considered canceling the M and getting an OM-D just to test the focus peaking waters before I make a final decision.

 

[glenerrolrd]

You have little to worry about . The large Leica dealers had dozens of orders months before the new M was announced . BH,Adorama,amazon and samys (the normal on line dealers in the USA linked by the various websites ) will fill only a small percentage of their first day orders . Leica intentionally sends out an initial batch and then holds back the rest . Look at watch happened with their last two lenses (35 lux and 50 apo ) both recalled . The initial shipment of M9 s to the USA was 20. The 2nd shipment was 10 times larger . That only covers the first few orders at each dealer . It takes about 60-90 days from the first camera showing up to see many in circulation.

 

[edwardkaraa]

I ordered an M the day after it was announced, so I should get one of the first examples to hit the retail market.
My thinking was "well, I've got M glass and R glass (including a Leica APO-Telyt-R 280mm F/2.8), what could be wrong?"
But now I'm have second thoughts, especially about trying to use focus peaking. I've considered canceling the M and getting an OM-D just to test the focus peaking waters before I make a final decision.

Don't worry about focus peaking, and especially don't believe the guys who commented negatively about it. I have had the chance to own a GXR M mount for about a year. The focus peaking is fantastic. It works extremely well for lenses of 35 mm equivalent AOV and above, and for wider lenses, with a small button push, you get magnified view that gives you amazing control on focus even when the lens is stopped down.

 

[docmoore]

Wow Bob. Having been a Canon user since my first F1 and later on to Hasselblad up to my current H4D60, I was very disappointed with Hasselblad's offering at Photokina. At that time, I was hoping Hasselblad was forward thinking enough to come up with a larger sensor version of the Leica. So that not being the case, I decided on the new M, but it will be my first Leica ever. The thinking was that the M would give me some more freedom than the very heavy Hassy for walking around photography. Last week I sorely missed my Hassy in Hawaii and was disappointed with my Canon files, so I have already been getting cold feet about the new M, and now I read your post. Decisions, decisions.

Greg

Greg,

Let me backtrack a bit from my previous statement....

The reality with Leica is that the first rendition of a camera can be a bit rough but that does not mean it is unusable nor unloveable. I loved the files from my M8, 8.2, 9 but watched as we struggled through issues concerning filters, calibration of lens, backfocus, cracked sensor covers, lens cast and poor profiles from Adobe. We all learned a lot and that was enough for some to abandon the camera and the system while others thrived as these were addressed.

Today the M9-P is a fabulous camera that exceeds most knowledgeable users desires within the scope of its use...little macro nor telephoto...no AF.

The S2 and Monochrom demonstrate how Leica can sidestep current thinking and "hit one out of the park" . However we still await CS lenses...long after their announcement.

I have no doubt that the new M will arrive and have some teething issues...but it also will become a success...a phenomenal one. However, one can buy a CMOS camera with Live View, Peaking, great high-ISO, manual focus assist with magnification and an adapter for most Leica and other M mount lenses for very little money. There are many....I just purchased the Oly E-PM2 ... sold my OM-D and needed a color option for the M lenses I use on the Monochrom but looked for a small fast camera. Personally I find magnification in manual focus much more useable than peaking.

Leica 35 Summicron Asph on the EP-2
Focus Point on Beaded Edge of Pewter Heart
ISO 1600



Bowl and Treasures

Having stood on the ragged peak of the cutting edge with new cameras I will wait for a bit on this one...wait but will buy in when I see something more affirming than the typical Leica product shots. I almost passed on the S2 as their public shots had nothing of interest to me. SO when Thorsten, Jono, Marc Williams, Tim Ashley, Matt Driscoll, Charles Kalnins, and Ashwin Rao (no specific order there guys!) start to show us how to use this camera I will jump in.

And for one starting in the system a used M8.2 and small adapted live view camera will allow the acquisition of a great list of standard M lenses prior to the big NEW M purchase day. The M8.2 will hold its value and makes great BW conversions ... you may not divest this after you move to the new M.

My present stable of cameras includes the S2-P (replaced my H3DII - 39), Monochrom, Canon 1Dx, Sigma DP2M, Oly EP-2, and Sony RX100...what I need is more time to explore and travel with camera.

Sorry that the first post was so terse...some days bring that out, and this one is starting to run-on....

Regards,

Bob