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Expectations for the New M

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
Maybe my experience with focus peaking reflects my lack of experience with it . Using a 135APO on the new M I found that it was not particularly accurate without a magnified view . When the view was magnified it was similar to trying to hand hold a 400mm lens ...very hard to keep the viewed area steady . While this might work well for some types of work ..its inconsistent with the strengths of a traditional RF camera and not comparable to using a similar 135 lens on a DSLR .

Using a 50 1.4 was entirely different . In this range with a fast lens ..focus peaking worked well ....it was fast accurate enough and the viewing wasn t an issue.

So as always a lot depends on what you shoot but an EVF using focus peaking doesn t compare to a SLR when using a longer lens .

Ok now lets try a wide angle ..the 21/3.4SEM ....set it to f8 and the entire screen flashes using focus peaking ..compare that to using the RF ..again focus peaking is not as good .

Its nice to have an alternative and if using an EVF ..I want focus peaking ..but its not an improvement for the majority of my applications .
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
The Ricoh GXR has excellent focus peaking and magnification options. Peaking is great to quickly get the focus into the ballpark, then I turn it off and use magnification to find the critical focus point. How much magnification depends on the focal length ... With something as long as a 135, often 2x or none. With a 21mm, 8x is good.

Working with a TTL electronic display is more akin to using an SLR viewfinder with these assist options. Learn to see focus first without them, then use them as they have value for your needs. Completely different from using an optical RF focusing system...

G
 

ashwinrao1

Active member
The time before the release of a desired (and expensive) camera is always one fraught with both excitement and anxiety, and I, for one, am looking forward to seeing with the M 240 will deliver. I agree with nearly all that Roger has said, and also have some suspicions that Robert is also right in his assessments regarding the use of longer lenses.

Overall, I see very little value in the sample photos tested to date. First off, they are JPEG's, rather than RAW files, which colors perspective on what the sensor can output. Second, being uniformly websized prints, it's hard to make judgement calls on how the CCD may differentiate from CMOS, which tends to be in the province of pixelpeeping and looking at more subtle details in big prints. Third, most of the images presented, were taken when stopped down, where many lenses perform similarly.

All in all, I expect that the M will be quite adequate and I'd suspect that there may be a slight difference in the fingerprint/signature of the files due to CMOS properties. I think it may be hard for any of us to pick these differences out consistently. I think color signatures, tonal rendition, etc, are what Leica's probably working on, to make sure that the presence of images taken with the M is comparable to the prior digital M's.

I am not entirely convinced that the EVF option will be that great in practice, but I guess that we'll see.

I can say that to date, the M9, MM, and M8 all have slightly different signatures of rendering, in my experience, and the M may be different as well. It'll certainly improve on high ISO performance, and I hope that low ISO IQ and detail will be preserved

I do hope that a future generation of the M will consider adding in camera image stabilization, but it seems that the market is divided on this. It would be great to use legacy M lenses with IS. This, in and of itself, will help many of us save difficult images.
 
I have carried my Leica M9-P for a year now, including camping for a month in very wet Alaska, through Colorado snowstorms at high altitude, and in rainstorms. I am as careful as realistically possible in these situations, but the camera does get wet and sometimes frozen with a bit of ice. I use a microfiber cloth to minimize the moisture. I have yet to have a problem with the M9-P and it's lack of "weather-proofing" that the new M will have.
 

D&A

Well-known member
Indeed. I'd swap weather sealing for IBIS in a heartbeat. :)


+1 I would too, as long as it was defeatable (could be turned off). Except for possibly a slight increase in weight gain, I cannot think of any major disadvanatge. Maybe there is one, but nothing comes to mind.

Dave (D&A)
 
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fotografz

Well-known member
I'd echo that H. Mark ... in fact I've never had an issue with weather sealing on anything, ever ... including MFD when caught in a sustained Monsoon downpour ... or shooting when and where I want with any M. If I only made photographs in nice weather I'd have to move away from Michigan.

All these so called restrictions are part of homogenizing every camera so they are more the same than they are different. Needs drive all this, and needs differ ... but these days each camera is measured against all needs ... which tends to turn specific Thoroughbreds into do-it-all Camels.

RE: Needs ... I've never reached the buffer on my M9P including shooting fast paced weddings with one, and most every camera suffers some image faults past ISO 1200, so I try not to exceed that. Hi ISOs never has changed the quality of bad light to be good light, ever.

IQ is all that counts, and that's going to be all in the eye of the beholder. However, there will be the usual techno-bullying to get more folks assimilated to the "new" aesthetic".

-Marc
 

Paratom

Well-known member
Maybe my experience with focus peaking reflects my lack of experience with it . Using a 135APO on the new M I found that it was not particularly accurate without a magnified view . When the view was magnified it was similar to trying to hand hold a 400mm lens ...very hard to keep the viewed area steady . While this might work well for some types of work ..its inconsistent with the strengths of a traditional RF camera and not comparable to using a similar 135 lens on a DSLR .

Using a 50 1.4 was entirely different . In this range with a fast lens ..focus peaking worked well ....it was fast accurate enough and the viewing wasn t an issue.

So as always a lot depends on what you shoot but an EVF using focus peaking doesn t compare to a SLR when using a longer lens .

Ok now lets try a wide angle ..the 21/3.4SEM ....set it to f8 and the entire screen flashes using focus peaking ..compare that to using the RF ..again focus peaking is not as good .

Its nice to have an alternative and if using an EVF ..I want focus peaking ..but its not an improvement for the majority of my applications .
This was what I also found when I used NEX for some time with some manual lenses (and why I the normally just used AF lenses on the NEX).
 

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
Weather sealing may be just a comfort and maybe not . Shooting mostly travel and street ...I shoot in the rain and downpours frequently . Days that rain on and off with some sunshine often produce great light . With my M8 s I was in downpour that was equal to pouring a glass of water on the cameras top plate . All I got was a slightly sticky on off switch . But I remember the LL trip to antarctica where almost every Canon 5D failed ..so maybe its just a worry . But when digital camera gets wet enough its gone and blowing an expensive trip is almost as bad a losing a camera . So its a tough specification to put a value on . At $8K a body it should be expected .

The high ISO will not ,as Mark pointed out , make bad light good . But I find that in the twilight hours having ISO1600 is enough to retain the higher shutter speeds I use on the street . This is all about subjects and the techniques the photographer finds help in getting the photograph . Its pretty common for the new MONO owners to comment on the IQ at higher ISOs . So its extending the range of performance by a few EV and getting better DR ,color ,noise etc at the middle ISO s ....rather than establishing bragging rights at ISO s over 3200 . Most current FF CMOS based cameras will produce excellent IQ up to ISO 800 and totally acceptable IQ at ISO1600 . Side by side the M9 is a full EV below that performance ..so I expect the new M will match the performance of the current CMOS offerings . It will be tuned for best IQ at the base ISO levels so I don t expect ISO 5000 anytime soon.

Surprised that filling the buffer hasn t been mentioned . Its a common complaint from the PJ I have met . If you made the transition from film into the Pro DSLR ...you become accustomed to instantaneous response (similar to a fast computer ) . When I shoot on the street ..I do my best to get positioned for success ..but when an opportunity arrives I do everything I can to capture that moment . While I do not shot on continuous .. I try to keep my head in the game for at least 4-6 captures then I reframe and move and shoot again if I can . Its not a huge deal ...but I appreciate the responsiveness of my D800E and I expect the new M will be an improvement .

The M9 is a tough act to follow and I do not expect major improvements in IQ at the base ISO ....rather I am hoping that I will not be accepting trade offs caused by the move to CMOS .
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Weather sealing may be just a comfort and maybe not . Shooting mostly travel and street ...I shoot in the rain and downpours frequently . Days that rain on and off with some sunshine often produce great light . With my M8 s I was in downpour that was equal to pouring a glass of water on the cameras top plate . All I got was a slightly sticky on off switch . But I remember the LL trip to antarctica where almost every Canon 5D failed ..so maybe its just a worry . But when digital camera gets wet enough its gone and blowing an expensive trip is almost as bad a losing a camera . So its a tough specification to put a value on . At $8K a body it should be expected .

The high ISO will not ,as Mark pointed out , make bad light good . But I find that in the twilight hours having ISO1600 is enough to retain the higher shutter speeds I use on the street . This is all about subjects and the techniques the photographer finds help in getting the photograph . Its pretty common for the new MONO owners to comment on the IQ at higher ISOs . So its extending the range of performance by a few EV and getting better DR ,color ,noise etc at the middle ISO s ....rather than establishing bragging rights at ISO s over 3200 . Most current FF CMOS based cameras will produce excellent IQ up to ISO 800 and totally acceptable IQ at ISO1600 . Side by side the M9 is a full EV below that performance ..so I expect the new M will match the performance of the current CMOS offerings . It will be tuned for best IQ at the base ISO levels so I don t expect ISO 5000 anytime soon.

Surprised that filling the buffer hasn t been mentioned . Its a common complaint from the PJ I have met . If you made the transition from film into the Pro DSLR ...you become accustomed to instantaneous response (similar to a fast computer ) . When I shoot on the street ..I do my best to get positioned for success ..but when an opportunity arrives I do everything I can to capture that moment . While I do not shot on continuous .. I try to keep my head in the game for at least 4-6 captures then I reframe and move and shoot again if I can . Its not a huge deal ...but I appreciate the responsiveness of my D800E and I expect the new M will be an improvement .

The M9 is a tough act to follow and I do not expect major improvements in IQ at the base ISO ....rather I am hoping that I will not be accepting trade offs caused by the move to CMOS .
As mentioned, needs differ. I'd agree that weather sealing should be part of an $8K tool, but those M lenses aren't sealed. It is nice that the MM can deliver higher ISOs, yet that is due to total avoidance of any color issues that accompany higher ISO digital capture.

The buffer issue is one of shooting style ... IMO, fast DSLRs have promoted run-n-gun PJ styles that have done nothing to advance the decisive moment type of rangefinder photography ... and maybe has added to its demise.

-Marc
 

wuffstuff

New member
But now I'm have second thoughts, especially about trying to use focus peaking. I've considered canceling the M and getting an OM-D just to test the focus peaking waters before I make a final decision.
Is there focus peaking on the OM-D? I'm not aware of it on my copy.
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
IBIS ... Eh? Not really all that useful for what he M is best at. Image stabilization is best at helping make longer lenses more hand hold able in decent light. Be nice for my 90/4 and 135/4.5, not terribly much of an advantage otherwise.

I wish the M9 had the 12 frame raw buffer and responsiveness of my Olympus E-1. And the write speed of the Oly E-5. ... :)

G
 

monza

Active member
That's exactly what I referenced above.

An M with focus assist magnification ideally should also have IBIS, otherwise the proposition of 90 and 135mm lenses isn't really well served; just use the rangefinder instead. Hand-holding those lenses while looking thru the EVF with 2-4x magnification (or something similar) is an exercise in frustration....shakiness, difficulty in following the subject to make sure it's still in the frame, all the while trying to nail the focus...all this is solved with a tripod and static subjects, but how many people carry along tripods with their Ms? Not saying it's never done, but that's not the real essence of M photography. IBIS would make a huge difference. Shooting a long manual focus lens on an OM-D with IBIS is a revelation. Time seemingly slows down. No shakiness!
 
V

Vivek

Guest
I have to disagree there, Robert.

IMO, IBIS = BS

Once the focus is nailed (by whatever means) if the camera offers stability and the shutter is quiet then that is worth more than all that shake stuff.
 

monza

Active member
The first time I used adapted lenses on mirrorless was over 4 years ago, a Nikkor 105 on a Panasonic G1. I went to the lake and shot some ducks. I wanted to nail focus on the eye.

Try that with 4x magnification, when the duck is moving around, and the viewfinder is shaking like an earthquake. :)

105mm is equivalent to 210mm, at 4x mag that's like looking thru an 840mm lens. How many people can hand hold an 840mm lens, let alone nail manual focus on a particular zone in the image, while the subject is moving? And most of the view that will be in the image, you can't see, because of the magnification of the center (or wherever the focus point might be.) And if the eye is not in the center, use the cursor to move the focus point.

I ran out of talent. :)

It's a nice thing to have, being able to adapt lenses to the M, but there a many limitations...there are simply better alternatives for certain shooting situations. I wouldn't expect an M to replace a DSLR for those situations. IBIS will most certainly help, if it were as good as the IBIS in the OM-D for example. But even IBIS does not turn an M into a DSLR...
 
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Godfrey

Well-known member
That's exactly what I referenced above.

An M with focus assist magnification ideally should also have IBIS, otherwise the proposition of 90 and 135mm lenses isn't really well served; just use the rangefinder instead. Hand-holding those lenses while looking thru the EVF with 2-4x magnification (or something similar) is an exercise in frustration....shakiness, difficulty in following the subject to make sure it's still in the frame, all the while trying to nail the focus...all this is solved with a tripod and static subjects, but how many people carry along tripods with their Ms? Not saying it's never done, but that's not the real essence of M photography. IBIS would make a huge difference. Shooting a long manual focus lens on an OM-D with IBIS is a revelation. Time seemingly slows down. No shakiness!
I don't find stability to be much of a problem when focusing with 90 and 135 mm focal lengths using an EVF .. I do it all the time with the GXR and have never had any difficulties at all. You hardly need magnification to focus with such long focal lengths.

With longer focal lengths, yes: but with longer focal lengths I'll use a tripod anyway to get the best results. 200mm is the longest tele I feel comfortable hand-holding with 35mm FF format if I'm looking for consistent sharpness.

I tend to use a tripod whenever critical sharpness is required by the subjects I'm shooting. That's very rare for people photography, much more appropriate for architecture, copy, macro, and almost any extreme wide angle or long telephoto work. IS helps ONLY with the hand-held, middling tele work IMO.

G
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
The first time I used adapted lenses on mirrorless was over 4 years ago, a Nikkor 105 on a Panasonic G1. I went to the lake and shot some ducks. I wanted to nail focus on the eye.

Try that with 4x magnification, when the duck is moving around, and the viewfinder is shaking like an earthquake. ...
I've never needed magnification to focus a 105mm lens on the G1 with critical accuracy. Why use it?


Panasonic G1 fitted with Nikkor 105/2.5AI lens
ISO 100 @ f/4 @ 1/125 sec


Hand-held ... That's made a razor sharp 16x20 inch print. Just because you have magnification doesn't mean you have to use it all the time ... !

G
 

monza

Active member
As I said, I ran out of talent. :)

Perhaps it will work better with focus peaking, without requiring magnification, which the G1 of course did not have.

Sometimes the nature of the shot helps with peaking, but not always. I shoot a NEX on almost a daily basis, and usually it requires both peaking and magnification.

Here is one shot on a NEX 7 with 105/2 DC Nikkor. The camera was on a tripod, and because of the nature of the lighting, focus peaking was sufficient. Although I had to break my neck looking through the EVF to confirm; the flip up LCD was useless in that lighting...

 

monza

Active member
In any event, this thread is entitled 'Expectations.' :) I hope that people don't have unrealistic ones, that the M with live view and EVF and focus peaking is somehow going to cover all photographic bases for every shooter...
 
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