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New M files available from Jono

ramosa

Member
I have been playing around some with the images. IMO they work out very well with simple editing in LR4. (And that, of course, will only get better with newer Leica firmware and provision the appropriate LR specifications for this camera.) I'm glad I waited for the M. Now the hard part--getting one! :)
 

StephenPatterson

New member
I have been pretty vocal in my criticism of Leica for not releasing any samples or updates in the nearly five months since Photokina. And while I disagree with the marketing strategy I must say that these images are exactly what everyone has been waiting for. Well done.

I will still be waiting to purchase a new M240 until I feel that a reasonably large sample has shipped and been proven reliable, and to let the frenzy die down (while I continue to happily click away with my trusty M9), but I now feel much more optimistic that Leica are moving in the right direction.
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
The new information provided was in the form of DNG files . You could assume that the intent was to allow potential buyers or just interested photographers to compare . Compare to what ? In my case I use 3 systems ..the M9 ,the D800e and the Leica S2 all with Leica lenses .

Comparing the files provides insights in the potential IQ that can be obtained from the new M . CCD verse CMOS has been the big question. IMHO comparing the D800E provides a good look at Leica glass on CMOS .

Anyone can fall back on ..only when I have the camera using my lenses on my favorite subjects will I know anything . If so why bother to participate ?
Roger,

I don't believe in the "compare every little bit to the point of absurdity" aesthetic. I don't think it's a productive way to understand a camera. If you do, fine: I'm not opposed to others enjoying their hobbies.

I've downloaded and looked at all the supplied samples now, and what they tell me is that I have no issues with the imaging capabilities of the camera. Samples just give you a keyhole idea of what to expect, nothing more or less. The way to understand what the M can do beyond that is to buy one and make a few thousand photos with it with lenses that you already know.

The CMOS vs CCD stuff is way overblown IMO. Yes, the technology has an impact on the imaging potential of a sensor, but the tuning of a particular imager through the base hardware that moves the data to a raw format file, and the image processing that happens on top of that, has a FAR greater impact. The pixel density and the strength of the AA filter are much bigger impacts on imaging performance.

The D800E sensor is quite different from the CMOSIS sensor in the M, both in pixel density and in micro-lens design. Comparing them tells me very little, and is mostly not relevant to my interests in the new M anyway as I have no intention whatsoever in buying into a Nikon D800 and lens system. I'm glad you enjoy using three systems ...

I wanted to articulate what *I'm* interested to know about the new M beyond just what its sensor does. I'm certain the sensor is up to snuff for my needs: I want to know how it improves on the M9 as a camera in use. That's what's important to me. Is that not allowed in your world?

G
 

Shashin

Well-known member
I have been pretty vocal in my criticism of Leica for not releasing any samples or updates in the nearly five months since Photokina.
Can you blame them? People are nitpicking now and the firmware is almost final, if not final. (If I were Leica, I would let you see samples right after you bought a camera.) Besides, releasing samples before releasing the product is not very useful--it is not like you can buy the camera. Why not simply wait so you can judge the actual output--anything else makes no sense.
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
Can you blame them? People are nitpicking now and the firmware is almost final, if not final. (If I were Leica, I would let you see samples right after you bought a camera.) Besides, releasing samples before releasing the product is not very useful--it is not like you can buy the camera. Why not simply wait so you can judge the actual output--anything else makes no sense.
I agree completely. Releasing image samples long before the camera is finished is a waste of time for both the company and the users.

G
 

jonoslack

Active member
Can you blame them? People are nitpicking now and the firmware is almost final, if not final. (If I were Leica, I would let you see samples right after you bought a camera.) Besides, releasing samples before releasing the product is not very useful--it is not like you can buy the camera. Why not simply wait so you can judge the actual output--anything else makes no sense.
Hi There
Well - I feel just the same as you - and as the recipient of jibes on various other fora (not this one) I might say that it's a bit of a trial for the photographer as well! (no complaint - it comes with the territory).
On the other hand I feel that the exercise has been useful, and that more people are pleased than otherwise (and perhaps those not pleased didn't want to be!).

I have been pretty vocal in my criticism of Leica for not releasing any samples or updates in the nearly five months since Photokina. And while I disagree with the marketing strategy I must say that these images are exactly what everyone has been waiting for. Well done.
Ah! Stephen - you make me feel that the whole exercise was worthwhile (seriously!) -
Wouldn't it be nice if it were as thin as an M6? . . . . yes it would . . . .
Wouldn't it be nice if it was as quiet as an M6? . . . .. no it wouldn't :)
We did a proper blind (well the ladies had their eyes shut) of objective shutter noise, and everybody not holding the camera thought that the M(240) was quieter than the M6 (hooray?)

Thumbs up to Leica for getting this one right ..it excels at base ISO and ramps up to 3200 very nicely . This also translates back into improved DR and color saturation at middle ISO levels .....so you may not need 3200 but you can enjoy a much cleaner ISO 400 and 800 than we have on the M9 .
Hi Roger - I quite agree -


I wanted to articulate what *I'm* interested to know about the new M beyond just what its sensor does. I'm certain the sensor is up to snuff for my needs: I want to know how it improves on the M9 as a camera in use. That's what's important to me. Is that not allowed in your world?

G
Hi Godfrey - I really appreciate your comments - I quite agree, samples are almost useless - I can only tell you how it improves on the M9 as a camera in use - The best thing I can say is that it's easy to get used to the new M - ergonomically and functionally - and rather tiresome going back to the M9 (for 20 minutes or so). I'd have put the play button above the LV button, but other than that it really works well - familiar and better.

all the best
 

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
Yes I can blame Leica for yet another (what is this four in a row ) major new release fiasco. Did they lose the date for Photokina ..again . Got my first CS lens this week !
 

StephenPatterson

New member
Can you blame them? People are nitpicking now and the firmware is almost final, if not final. (If I were Leica, I would let you see samples right after you bought a camera.) Besides, releasing samples before releasing the product is not very useful--it is not like you can buy the camera. Why not simply wait so you can judge the actual output--anything else makes no sense.
As I posted before "No news is never good news", because it causes people to worry. It's obvious now that Leica could have released at least a few larger jpegs months ago that would have quelled fears and generated excitement instead of the worry and hair pulling created by the leaked images. Sure the images might not have been the final firmware version, but releasing something from a professional photographer who knows about light, composition (and how to focus) could only have helped Leica.
 

BANKER1

Member
Well, let me tell you for whom the sample images are useful. ME. Having never owned a Leica, I am more than a little nervous about plunking down that kind of money for a 35 mm camera albeit full frame. And, even knowing Jono is a terrific photographer, it is useful to see his shots, hear his experiences, and all the comments of those who have spoken here. I agree it is not wise to choose a camera on the basis of pre-release photos or comments, but it becomes one of many factors used to judge whether I should purchase one. I have been on a waiting list for a long time and have been second guessing my decision ever since.

One of my concerns is the use of DNG with which I have never had much skill. Having used a 22 megapixel medium format CCD, I am not sure how the 24 megapixel CMOS sensor will stack up. Focusing also gives me pause for concern, but somehow I was able to focus the Hasselblad 500 C/M with some proficiency. Time will tell.

Greg
 

Paul Spinnler

Well-known member
When the M9 came out, I had a wow-feeling regarding the image quality. Back then, the value proposition was that you get something special for the 7-8k a comparably high resolution CCD sensor that nobody else has with very high acutance. But now I have the feeling, when looking at the value for money, that I get standard DSLR quality in a nice package, nothing more.

If you look at the samples of the new sigma DP3 how can M images still amaze?
 

iiiNelson

Well-known member
When the M9 came out, I had a wow-feeling regarding the image quality. Back then, the value proposition was that you get something special for the 7-8k a comparably high resolution CCD sensor that nobody else has with very high acutance. But now I have the feeling, when looking at the value for money, that I get standard DSLR quality in a nice package, nothing more.

If you look at the samples of the new sigma DP3 how can M images still amaze?
Two different markets and targets. I don't think most are willing to give up their Noctilux, Summilux, Summicron, Summarits, Elmarits, Elmars, or whatever exotic, and sometimes old, glass for a really nice P&S camera. Don't take it as an insult, condescending tone, or "Leica snobbery." Some people just have their preference of tool. Kinda like wondering why a Canon guy doesn't shoot Nikon. He/She is invested in the system that they liked the best and could afford.
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
When the M9 came out, I had a wow-feeling regarding the image quality. Back then, the value proposition was that you get something special for the 7-8k a comparably high resolution CCD sensor that nobody else has with very high acutance. But now I have the feeling, when looking at the value for money, that I get standard DSLR quality in a nice package, nothing more.

If you look at the samples of the new sigma DP3 how can M images still amaze?
You don't get use of all the delightful M-bayonet mount lenses on either a DSLR or a Sigma DP3. You also don't get a rangefinder, or the ergonomics in use of a Leica M. Is this not worth something to you? There are NO other digital rangefinder cameras being produced in the world today, and the new M has its very own new and highly-optimized, customized sensor. Is this not something "unique enough"?

Even if the sensor is a CMOS sensor, it certainly ISN'T the same sensor as in any DSLR. Nor is the sensor calibration the same, etc, etc.

I've heard these same disparagements of Leica M cameras based on their price since I first started doing photography in the late 1960s. "Why should I spend all that money for a Leica M when a Nikon/Canon/Pentax/Olympus/Whateverix does the same job?" My response has always been, "If you believe that, you shouldn't spend the money for a Leica M."

Same thing today.

G
 

jstaben

Member
I've heard these same disparagements of Leica M cameras based on their price since I first started doing photography in the late 1960s. "Why should I spend all that money for a Leica M when a Nikon/Canon/Pentax/Olympus/Whateverix does the same job?" My response has always been, "If you believe that, you shouldn't spend the money for a Leica M."

Same thing today.

G
Exactly!

For decades Leica film cameras used the same "films" that you could use on cheap point and shoot 35mm camera. Leica didn't have any special film that only Leica had access too. Now, we have sensors instead of film. The differing factor with Leica vs. the other cams are that it's a rangefinder, and that it's the only way to use M-glass as it was fully intended.
 
Exactly!

For decades Leica film cameras used the same "films" that you could use on cheap point and shoot 35mm camera. Leica didn't have any special film that only Leica had access too. Now, we have sensors instead of film. The differing factor with Leica vs. the other cams are that it's a rangefinder, and that it's the only way to use M-glass as it was fully intended.
I like your point sir. The difference between high end and low end 35mm sensors being narrower than ever, in most 'viewing' scenarios, we are now free of the the technical constraint of MegaPixels and can simply use the tools we enjoy most.
 

jonoslack

Active member
Exactly!

For decades Leica film cameras used the same "films" that you could use on cheap point and shoot 35mm camera. Leica didn't have any special film that only Leica had access too. Now, we have sensors instead of film. The differing factor with Leica vs. the other cams are that it's a rangefinder, and that it's the only way to use M-glass as it was fully intended.
Excellent
So the question is only
is the new sensor good enough to do justice to Leica lenses?
. . . and the answer is a resounding YES! (Well, in my very humble opinion!)
 

edwardkaraa

New member
When the M9 came out, I had a wow-feeling regarding the image quality. Back then, the value proposition was that you get something special for the 7-8k a comparably high resolution CCD sensor that nobody else has with very high acutance. But now I have the feeling, when looking at the value for money, that I get standard DSLR quality in a nice package, nothing more.

If you look at the samples of the new sigma DP3 how can M images still amaze?
The CCD sensor is still there and the iq is still as good as ever. You can keep your M9 and add an ME if you need a new body.
 

Shashin

Well-known member
When the M9 came out, I had a wow-feeling regarding the image quality. Back then, the value proposition was that you get something special for the 7-8k a comparably high resolution CCD sensor that nobody else has with very high acutance. But now I have the feeling, when looking at the value for money, that I get standard DSLR quality in a nice package, nothing more.

If you look at the samples of the new sigma DP3 how can M images still amaze?
I know what you mean. I would prefer the old CCD with more noise and less DR. I hate that the new M is going to have image quality on par with the 35mm sensors in DSLRs. Those sensor only have the best performance of any sensors out there. I want something worse. Imagine if someone confused one of my pictures with something from a D600, A99, RX-1, D4, or any of the top cameras today. OMG, how embarrassing.

I am going to go and see my boss tomorrow and demand a pay cut and an increase in my working hours!
 

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
I know what you mean. I would prefer the old CCD with more noise and less DR. I hate that the new M is going to have image quality on par with the 35mm sensors in DSLRs. Those sensor only have the best performance of any sensors out there. I want something worse. Imagine if someone confused one of my pictures with something from a D600, A99, RX-1, D4, or any of the top cameras today. OMG, how embarrassing.

I am going to go and see my boss tomorrow and demand a pay cut and an increase in my working hours!
This post is just out of line . Since I started the thread I will take the heat for pointing it out . There is huge difference in taking a different opinion and supporting it with evidence ..either anecdotal or with illustrations .

If you think the differences between CCD and CMOS are hard to see in practical use ...could you just say that . Instead of belittling the other persons POV .

Not speaking to this post but debating others POV by making condescending statements about that reflect poorly on others ..just doesn t get it in my world .
 

fotografz

Well-known member
I know what you mean. I would prefer the old CCD with more noise and less DR. I hate that the new M is going to have image quality on par with the 35mm sensors in DSLRs. Those sensor only have the best performance of any sensors out there. I want something worse. Imagine if someone confused one of my pictures with something from a D600, A99, RX-1, D4, or any of the top cameras today. OMG, how embarrassing.

I am going to go and see my boss tomorrow and demand a pay cut and an increase in my working hours!
Please take into account the eye of the beholder and all that. Personally, I do not see any current 35mm DSLR that has the look and feel of the M9 ... so best sensors is highly subjective ... unless this has become ALL science and subjective creative preferences no longer weigh in.

Subjectively, I think all these 35mm sensors are becoming homogenized and MacDonalded ... (and I have a A99 you mentioned BTW).

If the new M excels over the M9 in key personally needed attributes, then great! If it doesn't, well then that is great for M9 users.

Wish we photographers would stop being such rabid shills for the camera companies. It's like throwing a chunk of meat to a pack of Hyenas, that then turn on each other. :thumbdown:

-Marc
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
Shill for the camera companies?

Um, my most recent acquisition is a ca. 1939 Robot Star II. Been curious about them for at least thirty years, now they're inexpensive enough to buy one for experimentation. $100 plus the inevitable $200 for a full CLA. High roller ...

Expect to see true Monochrom image sequences soon. :)

G
 
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