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New M files available from Jono
- Thread starter glenerrolrd
- Start date
Shashin
Well-known member
Marc, you are falling into the same trap Paul is--no one has been shooting with the new M. But the few that have, and very much Leica folks that have used an M9, are very impressed. The only thing I see now about the nostalgia of the M9 is just snobbery. You like the extra noise and lower DR of the M9, that is fine--it impacts the look. But to even claim that modern sensors are simply falling into mediocrity is a little silly.
Ironically, I am getting tired of photographers bashing every new product that comes out, especially when there is no real data with which to judge (the point of my post, which I guess was lost). And whether you personally like the new M does not in fact make it anything than it will be, which is a fine camera. Beside, I often keep hearing it is the glass, not the sensor, that is the magic of Leica. Don't you want a sensor that can better reproduce the image off those lenses?
The only semi-bashing I am hearing is of the previous cameras, not the new one ... at least not from me since haven't used a M and cannot comment on whether something is lost in the gain elsewhere for my specific applications of a M camera. That other experienced M users find it excellent (all two of them so far), doesn't mean everyone will (depending on their creative needs and evaluation criteria of IQ).
It also doesn't mean that I personally am not up for getting the new M, I placed my order upon announcement and haven't altered that as I watch the results form beta users get published. Plus, I do agree that IF it can make more of the M lenses in key areas of use, it is a good thing ... depending on which lenses.
"Nostalgia of the M9" is an odd statement, since the new camera isn't even available. The only "nostalgia" some may be feeling is for their money
The key question being, does one live with the M9, get their money's worth, and wait for the inevitable next M XXX that makes an even more obvious difference from the M9? That is a highly personal evaluation, not a collective one.Apparently, Leica even recognizes creative needs differ since they also are producing the ME ... which IMO they "uglied up" so as to not appear too attractive
Again, calling someone else's personal take on the collective general state of 35mm CMOS sensors as being "silly", reduces and discounts any counter creative opinion. I personally still do not see any massive improvement in bodies of work due to 2 or 3 generations of sensor development ... incremental developments touted as milestones and breakthroughs. For example, IMO, the A99 made steps forward and some steps backward, depending on specific needs. Heck, there are some that still see the DMR as being special despite all its limitations and flaws ... so I believe there is room for the eccentric and path less traveled ... at least, for some photographers more resilient to bandwagon, specifications marketing.
-Marc
edwardkaraa
New member
Exactly my thoughts.
Hi Jono,
thanks for the images and your efforts.
In the end I did not really have doubts the M would deliver great IQ.
I would be interested if you feel the new "M" still feels as simple and straight forward like the M9?
Putting all that stuff (EVF or micro, or even big R-lenses) on the M does look still strange to me (but maybe I am just not used to it)
Did it feel different?
My feeling is to rather use an M with rangefinder and M lenses (maybe EVF for ultrawide, macro and the 135mm) but instead of using big R-lenses in manual mode with an EVF I would probably rather add a DSLR.
thanks for the images and your efforts.
In the end I did not really have doubts the M would deliver great IQ.
I would be interested if you feel the new "M" still feels as simple and straight forward like the M9?
Putting all that stuff (EVF or micro, or even big R-lenses) on the M does look still strange to me (but maybe I am just not used to it)
Did it feel different?
My feeling is to rather use an M with rangefinder and M lenses (maybe EVF for ultrawide, macro and the 135mm) but instead of using big R-lenses in manual mode with an EVF I would probably rather add a DSLR.
ptomsu
Workshop Member
Exactly my take as well. Use the M for what the M was always designed for and the EVF for situations when it really makes sense (low light, wide angles, Noctilux, 135mm) and otherwise buy a DSLR with fast continuous AF for situations like sports, wildlife, and where you need longer tele's.
I still could not see a big use of an M with even with the best manual tele lenses for Safari
jonoslack
Active member
If you want to shoot it like the M9 - then it feels better than the M9, but no less simple (they really have improved the ergonomics with the thumb-wheel/grip.
Well, I do agree - it's certainly not the camera for sports - although I think it might be quite good for some forms of wildlife.Exactly my take as well. Use the M for what the M was always designed for and the EVF for situations when it really makes sense (low light, wide angles, Noctilux, 135mm) and otherwise buy a DSLR with fast continuous AF for situations like sports, wildlife, and where you need longer tele's.
I still could not see a big use of an M with even with the best manual tele lenses for Safari
I've had a lot of fun shooting with the 28-90 (especially) and the 80-200 - these are very good lenses - better (IMHO) than any I've seen with an AF dSLR. The same goes for macro - which works really well. Telephoto is also absolutely fine for static (or slow moving) objects.
Handling is fine - even with big lenses - but the refresh rate and the slight blackout mean that it's not good for action.
I tend to go out with the EVF stuck on the top (looks no weirder than any other VF) - but shoot mainly with the rangefinder - after all, that's what it's for! You can imagine that it works really well with the WATE - which becomes a proper zoom, but also with 21 and 24mm lenses and the 135 as well.
My OMD is still firmly in place however (they compliment each other nicely)
Is that helpful?
As related to what Marc said>>>"Subjectively, I think all these 35mm sensors are becoming homogenized and MacDonalded"<<<
Similary, I often sometimes get that feeling with some of the current & recent M lens offerings. All superbly sharp, edge to edge, excellent contrast/micro contrast, "relative" similar looks from each of the major focal lengths (there are exceptions)...but in sense, with the reduction in aberations and great leaps in performance over previous generations of lenses, except for the focal length, many at times produce a very near identical image as the next.
This is of course good at times and useful for many applications but in my opinion this sometimes/often results in a homoginzed look when shooting two or three of these lenses in an outing. Again this is just my opinion). Luckily in lenses we have a much easier time if we want to change a look. Just pick up a very different lens than the one being used, which is obviously easier than poping out one sensor and replacing it with another.
Dave (D&A)
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glenerrolrd
Workshop Member
This thread has degenerated into a series of just ridiculous comments regarding the opinions of others . Any thread that starts with "you just don t get it " isn t in the spirit of sharing POV and insights . E
Look back at the intent ....Jono goes off for what weeks on 2-3 trips shooting the new M . Yes it preproduction and anyone that follows new camera introductions knows that both firmware and raw conversion software improve ..sometimes significantly . There is significant interest in the transition from CCD to CMOS by many (not all ) . Leica provides Jono s DNG s so that those interested may inspect them and try processing them . They also added in Chris Tribble s samples as well .
The DNG s are the best available source of insights . I learned most everything I needed to know and reported my POV . Of course I want to know more and when I have an "M" I will test the heck out of it ..but at that point I will be committed to getting the very best I can out of it .
I have plenty of experience with Leica M,DMR and S2 files as my shooting rate has been as high as 25K captures in a year . I do very similar trips to Jono and I have files to compare . I have also used or tested Leica glass on a variety of CMOS equipment from Canon/Nikon and Sony ..so I appreciate the aesthetic differences. The only point being that I have a basis for my comments that might be relevant for someone that shoots street or travel with a M .
Jono while I very much appreciate both your efforts and your always good intentions ...I need to take issue with you statement that the DNG s provide little insight. I assume you had ample time to work with the camera and had a hand in which samples were selected . (I appreciate that its pre production thats a given . Just like with the S2 ..color gets better but noise ,DR etc really don t improve much . )
It seems to go without saying that any photographer will learn more and appreciate the improvements ....when they can actually use the camera . Unfortunately most buying decisions will be based on anecdotal evidence and subjective observations ..otherwise you really can t get a new M anytime soon. Having the DNG was very helpful to me .
Look back at the intent ....Jono goes off for what weeks on 2-3 trips shooting the new M . Yes it preproduction and anyone that follows new camera introductions knows that both firmware and raw conversion software improve ..sometimes significantly . There is significant interest in the transition from CCD to CMOS by many (not all ) . Leica provides Jono s DNG s so that those interested may inspect them and try processing them . They also added in Chris Tribble s samples as well .
The DNG s are the best available source of insights . I learned most everything I needed to know and reported my POV . Of course I want to know more and when I have an "M" I will test the heck out of it ..but at that point I will be committed to getting the very best I can out of it .
I have plenty of experience with Leica M,DMR and S2 files as my shooting rate has been as high as 25K captures in a year . I do very similar trips to Jono and I have files to compare . I have also used or tested Leica glass on a variety of CMOS equipment from Canon/Nikon and Sony ..so I appreciate the aesthetic differences. The only point being that I have a basis for my comments that might be relevant for someone that shoots street or travel with a M .
Jono while I very much appreciate both your efforts and your always good intentions ...I need to take issue with you statement that the DNG s provide little insight. I assume you had ample time to work with the camera and had a hand in which samples were selected . (I appreciate that its pre production thats a given . Just like with the S2 ..color gets better but noise ,DR etc really don t improve much . )
It seems to go without saying that any photographer will learn more and appreciate the improvements ....when they can actually use the camera . Unfortunately most buying decisions will be based on anecdotal evidence and subjective observations ..otherwise you really can t get a new M anytime soon. Having the DNG was very helpful to me .
Shashin
Well-known member
Worry about what? The camera won't be done until it hits mass production. Is a not very well working camera and samples released early going to quell the folks that worry? I don't see any damage to Leica and I am sure the M will be a success. BTW, you don't have to buy it. So if the camera is a bomb, it makes no difference in your life as you can simply keep using your M9. So why the worry?
BTW, Jono did release some fine pictures and there are still lots of detractors (mostly making things up). I think people like to complain and worry. It is kind of like a rocking chair, it gives them something to do, but gets them nowhere. Leica release early samples would have just fanned the fires.
Shashin
Well-known member
So you don't want improvements to the 35mm sensors? I have no problem with people liking equipment and staying with it. I don't buy every new generation of camera--I hang on to camera for a long time. There is actually no reason to buy an M if you are completely satisfied with your M9 or any other camera. But when you buy a camera, don't you want the latest improvements? I hear lots of people moan when the camera companies are not perceive in doing that.
This becomes a very interesting conversation, especially with Dave's post (D&A). I see no end of posts demanding perfection in their cameras and lenses. The camera companies are working hard to meet that. Now people are complaining that their equipment is too perfect!
The funny thing is, the better the equipment comes, the more the results from that equipment get closer. That is how it should be. There is no difference in the light we see. Ideally, the system should give an accurate reproduction. As always, the photographer adds the flavor.
But I think we can agree that the chorus of moaning that comes every time a new product comes out is just getting too much. I love photography. I don't care if it is wet plate or digital, from a cell phone, Holga, or IQ180. I love the new stuff and the old. Each process, each incarnation adds something. Look at a copy of the World History of Photography. While it spans all of the technical achievements in technology, the quality of the photography always remains high.
The new M is coming. I am excited and happy for the release--I am not going to buy one (in fact, no one has to buy one, although it sounds like Leica just took away the M9 owner's birthdays). I am happy about that. I am happy that they are pushing the quality. It is one more tool we have to create with. What is there not to celebrate?
(BTW, there is no reason you need to sell your M9 and I would not expect anyone to sell their camera just because a new comes out.)
jonoslack
Active member
Hi Roger
Did I say that? What a load of rubbish - it was probably late :chug:.
I think the DNG files speak volumes (they do to me at least). FWIW I think they're the nicest files I've ever worked with.
. . . as you say, the colour will get better the DR probably won't. The noise will - probably not by a huge amount, but there apparently will be an improvement.
Personally I think the rangefinder part of the camera is a total winner . . . the only thing I'd have is to have it M6 sized - really I think that's all. The Live View /EVF is a bit different - but none the less very useable and capable for measured shooting.
all the best
Because hopefully the form factor and utility of the camera is such that it helps you take photos that would be more difficult to achieve with a DSLR?
If your goal is otherwise, you are only ever going to be 'outgunned' as technology improves.
If your goal is otherwise, you are only ever going to be 'outgunned' as technology improves.
Godfrey
Well-known member
Basically, if this is true, we're back to the film world. It's what lens you pick that makes the difference. Even more reason for the new M ... A huge range of superb lenses with unique rendering signatures to choose from. Modern lens have their look, older lenses theirs. The camera faithfully records the lens rendering. What could be better?
G
m_driscoll
New member
All: good reading.
Jono: Nice work! Thank you for venturing out into another 'perfect storm' for the rest of us.
Cheers, Matt
Jono: Nice work! Thank you for venturing out into another 'perfect storm' for the rest of us.
Cheers, Matt
Yes, thank you!
Seascape
New member
Thank you Jono, your observations are very reassuring.
Looking forward to seeing the fully sorted M's sometime soon :thumbup:.
jonoslack
Active member
Thanks Matt
I'd like to say it all washes over me. Truth is that the threads here and at LUF make it all worthwhile.:clap: thank you everyone :clap:
The comments on Steve Huffs site and Leica rumors were less than delightful.:deadhorse:
It's amazing how rude people can be when they aren't in front of you!
iiiNelson
Well-known member
Yeah I read some of the comments on Steve Huff's site and after about the fifth insulting comment I just stopped reading. IF you don't think they are the greatest photos then a person is entitled to their opinion but there's no need for extreme rudeness in reference to the photographer's ability ever. I think you mentioned here and at LUF that you were shooting to showcase the camera and not the lenses and that's what I felt about the files upon first glance. They were lightly, nicely processed family vacation photos and showed off what to expect from the camera.
I think some people had it in their mind that Leica should only show highly processed photos like the ones from Cuba. I think those did a great deal to sell camera and while it's not a dishonest practice, as it is technically possible to create that sort of image, that method shows off PP skills as much as composition skills. I didn't feel that is what you were going for though. Again I appreciate your viewpoint and decision to go the route you did. It makes for a better baseline to process to each individual's personal photo preference IMO.