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Evaluating the New M

KeithL

Well-known member
I have to admit I was concerned about buying into poor service and support, buggy releases, absence of rentals and product not being available off the shelf, but in the end the deciding factor for me on top of the other worries was the lack of scrollable live-view.
 

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
As Guy points out Leica has a poor track record at getting new product introductions . Look at the S2 .. a product clearly aimed at the professional market . Pro s paid a big premium to to get overnight turn around with the S2P .

The S2 seemed decent at launch yet most of the S2 owners I know had to send a body or a lens to Solms . The turn around was good and the support from Leica was excellent . Those with the S2P got the overnight loaners as promised .

They botched the coordination with Adobe because of the last minute shift away from Capture One . Early files frankly didn t cut it ..but after a year and several firmware updates ...they were superb.

Most rental houses dumped there initial orders because you couldn t even get a set of S lenses . Go on to the promised CS lenses .. never even made it before the S2 was replaced by the S ... a whole generation behind .

For the first time in a while I held out and didn t get a new Leica product at launch . This was more driven by no lenses available ...I mean only the standard 70/2.5 was available . This worked well ..my S2 has been free of problems, the software was ready and now the CS lenses are becoming available .

Plus I felt no requirement to get the new "S" ....just happy with my S2 gear as it is .

So a good case can be made for waiting past the initial release ...
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
My other concern for folks is giving up there M9s too quick for the new M. Sure nicer features and better ISo and for a lot folks it will be great to upgrade but be careful giving up your CCD on a unproven CMOS sensor . Now not saying its bad it could be awesome but its a little early in the game and we are not sure what its good and bad qualities are. Far from it for me to tell folks what to do but I would just take your time and smell the roses for a few minutes before you cut your CCD M9 to its roots. Cause I may just snag it up and not give it back. LOL

Needless to say I have a bias towards CCD and I have yet to see any CMOS touch it in certain ways. I know this one is new and I have my eyes wide open on it. I'm hoping its awesome.
 

Shashin

Well-known member
I don't get the folks selling cameras they like because a new camera is released--it is just a product announcement, not a royal command. The M9 that took great photo before the new M will continue to take the exact same great photos after the new M. Do you guys buy a new car every year?
 

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
When to sell(an M9 for an M) is a difficult decision because of the lack of availability of the new M . The incentive to sell early in the process is to get a better price . Once the new model is full supply ..the availability of used M9 s will peak . If you sold very early you might have received $4500 for a typical mint minus M9 . It then went to $4000 . Now I think you would be lucky to receive $3500-3750 . Probably not the bottom but close enough not a big advantage today unless you need the funds.

So you buy a new M at $7000 and sell it 6 months later for what $6300 (10% loss) and buy the best M9 you can find for $4000. (maybe an M9P) . It looks to be a 10-15% loss on your decision if you decide to go back .

I think the rush is to have the funds available to purchase the new M.
 

Double Negative

Not Available
I don't get the folks selling cameras they like because a new camera is released--it is just a product announcement, not a royal command. The M9 that took great photo before the new M will continue to take the exact same great photos after the new M. Do you guys buy a new car every year?
I would totally agree. In fact, I still say that about the M8. Keep in mind that some might have to sell the _old_camera_ to afford the _new_camera_. Others? Yeah... Constant gear churn. Often followed by the ol' battle cry, "switched to the [dark|other] side!"
 

iiiNelson

Well-known member
I don't get the folks selling cameras they like because a new camera is released--it is just a product announcement, not a royal command. The M9 that took great photo before the new M will continue to take the exact same great photos after the new M. Do you guys buy a new car every year?
Everyone has different needs (I'm not a pro by any means photography related) but I have no intention of sell my M9P. I'm simply adding the M240 as an additional body that may possibly become the main body. I also plan to add an MM eventually.

Yes the M9 is still very capable and it's the best camera I've used for my wants/ needs. Again I have no intention of parting with it yet.
 

jonoslack

Active member
Meh. I like my M9. It is what it is, I expect no more, no less. I don't need to read menus (much) to operate it - and I'm generally very happy with the results. Okay, so it doesn't do "high ISO" so well. That's why I have fast lenses.
I like my M (well, actually Leica's M). It is what it is, I expect no more, no less. I don't need to read menus (at all) to operate it - and I'm generally very happy with the results. It's high ISO is hardly Canon or Nikon standard, but 3200 is pretty reliable and 6400 is often fine. And anyway, I have fast lenses.

Sorry to take your message in vain! It's a good message about familiarity and confidence. Sure there might be things lurking in the background, and like the M9 there are certainly things one would change.

Guy is right to be cautious, and there are questions about the brave new sensor (especially if you push a properly exposed image by 3 or 4 stops).

I realise I'm sounding glib, but three months in, and not one shot spoiled by the camera, and confidence begins to set in.
 

Chuck Jones

Subscriber Member
I like my M (well, actually Leica's M). It is what it is, I expect no more, no less. I don't need to read menus (at all) to operate it - and I'm generally very happy with the results. It's high ISO is hardly Canon or Nikon standard, but 3200 is pretty reliable and 6400 is often fine. And anyway, I have fast lenses.

Sorry to take your message in vain! It's a good message about familiarity and confidence. Sure there might be things lurking in the background, and like the M9 there are certainly things one would change.

Guy is right to be cautious, and there are questions about the brave new sensor (especially if you push a properly exposed image by 3 or 4 stops).

I realise I'm sounding glib, but three months in, and not one shot spoiled by the camera, and confidence begins to set in.
Jono, you don't sound glib at all to me. You sound excited to be testing the new M, as I know I certainly would be myself testing an improved prototype of the next model. And I do want to both acknowledge and thank you for posting your own findings to date, though admittedly with some trepidation. While your posts make for interesting reading, I hope everyone understands the camera you are using is certainly not representative of what anyone should expect from the final product when it ships. Hence, my trepidation in your comments.

The very LAST steps before freezing firmware for a release candidate is the engineers final tweaks and adjustments of the high ISO settings. Unfortunately, this final step can not be done until everything else is frozen for a couple of reasons way too technical to go into here. We are all very lucky to have you posting at all, as most camera manufacturers forbid their beta testers from posting or saying anything about image quality for just this reason. High ISO optimization is required in-camera for the best final output quality.

RAW processing software makers also need to incorporate specific changes to work the files. This too requires time after a release candidate stage is reached. While the new M files may be readable with Adobe's present RAW converter as generic M DNG files, I can guarantee you will not see the real quality until much later once Adobe releases specific support for the new camera model. Just look at the Fuji X-Pro files as a great example, if you doubt my words.

I agree with Guy Mancuso's advice above. This major a change in the sensor design is a big deal. A "Wait and See" attitude is the best course of action for both professionals and serious enthusiasts especially given the "Colorful" history Leica has in releasing new digital products. Paying to be a Leica beta tester is not a comfortable position. Folks that buy an M as a status symbol should rightly take those first lumps, not those of us who are serious about our photography! :thumbs:
 

rayyan

Well-known member
By Jove Annabel, there is another Leica M coming!

Was it on the weather channel dear? I wonder who dreams up these names?

Could you ask Jeeves to barricade the windows, darling. And pass me that brandy.

Do you think the trains will be running?
 
V

Vivek

Guest
I am pretty sure there are no Annabel editions.

It is Cognac and not... :LOL:
 

rayyan

Well-known member
No and no. It is brandy. From the root word Brandon.

See. Says Brandy. Can't argue with fact.

 

D&A

Well-known member
I agree with Guy Mancuso's advice above. This major a change in the sensor design is a big deal. A "Wait and See" attitude is the best course of action for both professionals and serious enthusiasts especially given the "Colorful" history Leica has in releasing new digital products. Paying to be a Leica beta tester is not a comfortable position. Folks that buy an M as a status symbol should rightly take those first lumps, not those of us who are serious about our photography! :thumbs:
+1! I most certainly agree with this. It's fine to be optimistic and even excitied about the potential for a new product, even early sample DNG's being released.... but there is absolutely no substitute to having one in your hands and put it through it's paces in an enviorment and the shooting conditions that represent you own needs. Carefully examining "these files" will go a long way to your knowing" if a new sensor and image developments are an advanatge. This is aside from the ergonoimics and addtional advanced features incorporated into the new camera.

This I believe this is generally the only practical way to be certain if it's a worthwhile and even cost effective upgrade for most. I also realize the difficulty for some to have the opportunity to have "hands on" time with a newly released camera but it's often worth the wait to evaluate it rather than dive in head first and worry about what the changes mean for you type of photography.

Dave (D&A)
 

jonoslack

Active member
RAW processing software makers also need to incorporate specific changes to work the files. This too requires time after a release candidate stage is reached. While the new M files may be readable with Adobe's present RAW converter as generic M DNG files, I can guarantee you will not see the real quality until much later once Adobe releases specific support for the new camera model. Just look at the Fuji X-Pro files as a great example, if you doubt my words. :
Hi Chuck - I'm going to take issue with you here - The X-pro files are a completely separate and different animal (as were the DNG files from the MM). Those from the M are not - there is a Bayer filter and the demosaicing is standard.

LR, Aperture, C1 and everyone else will develop a camera specific profile using the information supplied by Leica, but the standard DNG conversion should (and does) work very well, especially if you remove the default sharpening and noise reduction algorithms (which aren't necessarily suited to a FF aa less camera).

The x-pro files are not DNG standard, and they don't use a Bayer filter - totally different.


I agree with Guy Mancuso's advice above. This major a change in the sensor design is a big deal. A "Wait and See" attitude is the best course of action for both professionals and serious enthusiasts especially given the "Colorful" history Leica has in releasing new digital products. Paying to be a Leica beta tester is not a comfortable position. Folks that buy an M as a status symbol should rightly take those first lumps, not those of us who are serious about our photography! :thumbs:
Well, a lot of lessons have been learned - and there are resources to do it better these days. The launch of the M9 was actually pretty smooth - the IQ was good, and hardware issues were sorted fast - the MM was even better.

I imagine that releasing the DNG files isn't really to make users feel cuddly - but to find out if anybody can see a real gotcha in the files which hasn't been noticed elsewhere.

Let me put this a different way - if I can scramble the money together I'll be getting two bodies at the earliest possible moment.

all the best
 

bab

Active member
To me its all about having the best lenses in the world and not being able to frame or focus proper images...without taking 3 frames of each shot and hoping one is framed and in focus.
Its having a sensor that can shoot in low light.
Its about being able to see clearly through the finder window and have the image bright enough to focus (bright enough to pop in focus)

SORRY but 90% of all Lecia images I see posted are not in focus and for that its always seemed a shame that Lecia makes cameras that cant focus their lenses...or at least I cant get a high percentage of keepers. Unless I'm on a tripod. Either its my eyes, the rangefinder coupling or the lens calibration I had all the issues associated with the camera and its lenses. I've had new cameras that were mis-aligned, new lenses that were impossible to focus and had to be returned. Maybe that par for the course still in all I cant help but to love the system and its images for what it is and wish that someone at Leica would wake uphttp://www.getdpi.com/forum/images/smilies/banghead.gif .

The sample images I have seen with the M240 so far show me nothing better than what I get already (maybe even more issues with color and focus). I am ready for a cleaner and higher ISO, a better and brighter screen and just maybe a camera that I can get more keepers. However not one of the comments I have read address this issue of MORE KEEPERS.
 

jonoslack

Active member
However not one of the comments I have read address this issue of MORE KEEPERS.
Well, two possibilities - if my images are okay, then it's practice . . . if they aren't, then it's lowering your standards (because I'm satisfied . . . within reason).

Let's face it, the downside of a rangefinder is that the little patch is always going to be a challenge. The upside is that it's simply the best way of taking photos . . . . .but putting a rangefinder on a tripod is a really odd solution (like trying to drive your ferrari off road)! If you're after focus perfection, then perhaps there are better solutions?
 

ramosa

Member
bab: Hmmm ... my experience with Leica rangefinders and my viewing of others' images taken with Leica rangefinders do not suggest major problems related to focusing and framing. In these regards, there are certainly pros and cons for a rangefinder--or a DSLR, for that matter. Rangefinders permit excellent manual focus (perhaps better than any other type of camera) and viewfinder sighting of more than what you're shooting. These are both big plusses for street/candid photography.

Anyway, understandably, people have very different views of the new M. They even diverge greatly for folks like me with M8s and others with M9s. (If I had an M9, I doubt I'd be tempted by the new M. But, from an M8, the step forward with the new M should be much more apparent [even if one never uses the video or live view].) Such views get even more varied when considering people who don't shoot Leica rangefinders. To make sense of this diversity of opinion, just see Leon Festinger's work on cognitive dissonance.
 

bab

Active member
Yah had two M8 they were great but want the FF so upgraded to the M9, very happy to own it so far. Don't care to much about video. The "New" camera is not made for existing owners its made for new potential buyers. Still I thank you for the "Link"

bab
 

bab

Active member
Hey Jono,

You got it right not completely satisfied, same with the OMD but sure like the way the Lecia glass focuses on it and the low light capabilities.

By the way you know Im talking about shooting in the Street wide open with lux don't you F8 is great but not for me. And yes I can focus faster with the M than anything thats through the finder but as YOU know better than most it doesn't mean you seeing what the lens is...congrats on you last photo posting with the M good job!!!!!!!

bab
 

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
When I started back with digital RF in 2007 , I struggled with accurate focus like everyone else . The equipment calibration (to Leica s specifications ) was simply not tight enough . Factor in lenses that were produced before the M8 and you had mess . If your equipment is still in the middle of the calibration process ..factor in a trip to DAG or NJ . Once you start making slight corrections for individual lenses you lose the consistency needed for accurate focus .

Recognize the need for practice ..focusing a range finder requires hand eye coordination . Yes ..if you have weak eyesight ..maybe its not the system for you . If you can not shoot frequently you have to practice . There are ton of techniques to establish your focus point beyond put the rangefinder patch on the eye .

Probably most important is ..why are you shooting wide open ? Yes it creates an aesthetic and can create interest in a photograph ....but if you are close enough to the subject you can shoot at f2.8 and still have enough bokeh . I haven t seen many professionals that shoot wide open as a standard practice ..they use the aperture that works for the situation . I start with f5.6 as my standard and adjust for the situation .

I can tell you from a lot of experience its not that easy to focus an AF lens like a 35/1.4 at f1.4 and get consistent placement of the plane of focus . Then factor in curvature of field and focus shift . Shooting wide open with any system is a challenge .
 
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