Looks like the New M Delayed Until May (shipping April 30, 2013) now.
Looks like the New M Delayed Until May (shipping April 30, 2013) now.
Crap. Leica misses again. Will they ever guess right?
I'm not unhappy about the delays. This means to me that Leica will not launch an imperfect product and let the early adopters be the beta testers. I don't think anyone here is in such a hurry. Our Leica M9s and Monochroms are still hopefully working.
M262 ZM 25/2.8 35/1.4 50/2 85/27 Member(s) liked this post
Even more glad that I decided to go with a MM and keep my M9P...should have me covered for several years now with anything I need.
Yeah, I think we'd probably all agree that it's better Leica take the time to get things right NOW rather than once it's in the wild. They got burned on the M8 and probably play it safer these days as a result.
I have no problems continuing to use my M9.
It might be me but I do think that the longer the camera takes to become available the more technology overtakes it. By the time the camera arrives it will be so far behind the competitors that the next iteration is already overdue.
Having said that, I'll still be waiting for one.
It's already behind the competition in many ways, just comparing specs.
It is, however, the only new digital rangefinder, that also the only new camera to fully utilize M-glass as intended.
I'm not happy about a delay, but (1) I am so low on pre-order lists that I won't be getting the camera for ages anyway and (2) I think a delay is fine if it means Leica is getting it right (before releasing it).
The new M, in contrast, is a completely new camera compared to the M9, with mostly all new innards, and with a lot of first time implementations by Leica. I can't imagine a 'perfect' release from the start. But, unlike many others, I won't waste time faulting Leica. I still prefer my M8.2s to the M9 and am perfectly content until something else better meets my needs and preferences, and that proves to be sorted and reliable.
I take the same approach with most any device with new technologies, e.g., appliances, cars, or whatever. I'm thankful, though, that many others aren't like me and willingly buy from the outset.
I would have to agree with you, on multiple levels. The M9 was basically a bigger sensored M8 and look at the issues there. Now granted, a lot of those centered around the full frame sensor (e.g. cracking, colorations, etc.). Thankfully some of those were fixable in firmware.
The M240 is a whole new paradigm, so one can imagine the amount of new issues that could potentially crop up... Let's hope it doesn't end up like that.
I can wait. I bought the M9 last fall thinking it would be a least a year before I'd be comfortable that the bugs were worked out of the M240.
I guess I'm just not all that impatient. I'd much rather they get it right to their satisfaction than release it before that point.
Of course, the Leicaphile culture seems to always work this way with every new camera Leica announces:
"The last version was near perfect. Now they've screwed it all up, and it's obsolete already. Too bad it isn't released yet."
I'm enjoying my M-E (my first Leica) and did not want to wait to start my experience. I figured if I did wait for the M240 I had no idea how long the wait would be since it was just in the last month I made this decision. No telling how far down the wait list I'd be placed.
Good call, Duane! The new M will bring more to the table, but your M-E and my M9 are no less relevant or proficient for the work they can do now. I'd rather enjoy the M9's capabilities and see what the new M brings in its time.
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Glad I have kept the M9 in hand. I suspect that if the first batch will be released in May (and possibly later in the US, given that MM allocations were tight here for the first 3 months), I doubt that anyone other than a lucky handful will have their M's before mid summer, and a more realistic projection on people getting theirs will be later summer/early fall...
I too would rather Leica get it right the first time around. Hopefully they work on high ISO banding at ISO 6400. That would be key, along with insuring the full capacity for expanding dynamic range within the limits of the sensor, in addition to getting the colors right.
More time for me to save up
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My travel kit is usually three of them: 21, 40 or 50, and 90. And a Skink pinhole lens. But I have four M-mount bodies, what might seem an excess of lenses actually just guarantees that I have enough lenses to go around if I want to use a couple of bodies in combination.
A pocketful of Skopars makes a killer travel kit. I went with the LTM versions as they're even smaller than the newer M mount ones.
There is no evidence that taking more time will insure that Leica gets it right . The MONO seems to be an exception but with the M8,M9,S2 and numerous new lens designs Leica has not gotten it right . There have been flaws in each of the other product launches .
To a great extent this goes with the fact that Leica is a very small manufacturer of high precision equipment . They are dependent as most camera companies are ..on a small number of specialty suppliers . (which in themselves aren t particularly reliable ).
The other major problem area is always that the software just isn t done . My guess is that the new M will be more dependent on in camera processing (Maestro) than even the S2 . Brand new sensor from a new supplier , high performance Maestro processor , movies,live view and what must be some of the highest expectations for IQ ...no one said it was easy .
They identified some unanticipated problem and decided to work it thru before they launch ....no evidence to suggest that they will be doing additional beta testing to flush out problems before higher production rates .
Its easy to support not launching a new product with known issues ....but focusing Photokina around a flagship product thats 9 months from first shipments ? Nothing good about hearing of yet another delay .
+1 to what Roger said in the post above.
But it is with interest, and a bit of amusement, I note that even delays by this company are a matter of support from the flock.
Compare this with the savagery for possession with which the previous introductions of the M were received. The faithful were tripping over themselves to get their hands on one! And consuming bandwidth on this and other forums to talk about the wunder-M.
Along with the boasting rights and no doubt the pleasure of owning the newest at the earliest.
As for me, I shall pass this iteration of the M-240 and see what the 241 brings, when emotional purchases fade a little and a product has been put under scrutiny.
Well someone has too be a little negative about this for some balance. As I just read this whole thread the problem is a little glaring and has been on each product release. Roger touched on this but everyone just flat out forgave Leica for not living up to a promise of release, folks done this before too. But the problem is your saying its okay under the premise that the product will be more ready. Wrong the product will be even more behind the technology curve and there is absolutely no proof the product will be better but your belief it will. I'm sorry but that don't cut the mustard. If this was Nikon with such a much larger user base than it would be disaster in sales and Canon would suck up all the folks waiting on this new product and give up. Reality is this is bad business and everyone just said it was okay. Imagine the car you just test drove and wanted to buy there was no production models to buy for months. You all would not be happy, so why are you forgiving Leica with the belief not even a fact that it will be better on release. Now call me crazy but don't you see the fundamental problem here . We repeatedly say to Leica it's okay to **** up we will still buy your product , where is the accountability here . Oh and BTW what about those that sold there M9 and the extra depreciation you all will have months from now that will give you less value on your sales and more money to buy new. REALLY that's okay too. I'm just sayin this to remind people that accountability actually counts as the real cause for this delay is maybe a real limitation on the ability to actually produce it or worse. Where are the real facts here. Would we really just throw this up in the air and accept any other company In The electronics world and just have this blind belief the product will be better. No the product maybe done because they can't do it today is more like it. Maybe I'm just not that big on accepting this since every digital product they have released we have a delay without fail. That's a problem folks.
Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.
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Come on! It gives a breathing space for folks to sell their M9/Ps. They are the first ones to be buying the new M. Surely, this needs to be applauded.
When Sony delay the release of a promised camera by months or even an year it does not make a big ruckus, even when they supply better sensors to Nikon to make much better cameras than their own flagship cameras.
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Well, I have a few comments based on the few above posts:
1. The old M9 and MM are still producing world class results and working flawlessly, so it's not like people are desperately in need for a new model that fixes huge defects in the previous one.
2. If you can find another FF body that takes your M mount lenses, please go ahead and buy that one. I'm happy to wait.
3. I couldn't care less for a few greedy morons who sold their M9 just as the M was announced at photokina, just to be able to make a few hundred dollars extra. They were willing to stay without a camera for 6-7 months. A couple more months won't be the end of the world for them. Obviously it's their problem not mine, and definitely not Leica's.
4. This is all madness that accompanies the introduction of every new product. People who otherwise are very rational suddenly get the GAS and every day/month of delay will cause sleepless nights and nervous breakdowns ... etc.
M262 ZM 25/2.8 35/1.4 50/2 85/25 Member(s) liked this post
For someone who has not bought anything Leica brand new (except maybe a battery), the delay doesn't really bother me much. They've just extended the perceived usefulness of my M9. However, I do watch with interests since I'll probably buy one used 1 or 2 years down the road. I think they can get away it without doing much harm because there really isn't any alternatives if you want a digital rangefinder, and the delay really only impact people who's ready to buy it now.
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Meh, a tempest in a tea-pot IMO.
Leica and impatience are mutually exclusive.
Heck, I'm grateful that after a mere 2 years waiting, my first CS lens for my S2 is on its way.
Obsolescence is a hobgoblin of the digital minded ... if you want to shoot a rangefinder, the M8, M82, M9, M9P, ME are the choices right now ... and I seriously doubt the new M will be plentiful until Fall of this year. For some, the M9/M9P/ME may never be obsolete ... apparently being the last of the Leica CCD M rangefinders.
I am painfully aware that any new M will have teething problems and that new adopters will have to deal with ..at a minimum a few months of refining post processing and a trip to Solms maybe required . So a good case can and has been made by others ...that delaying any rush to acquire the new M maybe prudent .
Needs vary by individual as do the means to endlessly spend (time as well as money) on the latest and greatest new products . Not a thing wrong in continuing to enjoy the M8/M9 ...but if you have decided to pursue a new M ..then of course any delay is a concern .
My issue was that we should not be applauding Leica .".for taking more time to get it right". There is no evidence of any kind that this will be the case ....exactly the opposite . They have identified an issue of sufficient concern to warrant a delay and a major financial hit . This is a sign that all is not well .
And really that is my point Roger. Regardless if you buy or not today or four years from now . The real issue is Leica has a problem with deadlines and they continually do the same thing at every release so Photokonia announcements are a half truth and basically its the cry wolf syndrome only in a different way. I know many fans forgive this and will immediately relate it to themselves and there needs but your really missing the big picture here of them in the industry and tardiness is not acceptable.
Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.
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I've been a Leica user for a long time. I can easily be described as a Leica "fanboy". But I think there is an important question which needs to be asked, namely why is Leica going to be one year late with the M240?
The M240 project was launched at least three years ago, with a project timeline that had beta testing, and probably final production, scheduled for completion several months before Photokina 2012 (considering a three year product cycle time). As Photokina 2012 approached the M240 project was obviously struggling. It was probably a major feat to get something ready for show, even if it could only capture low res jpegs.
We may never know what the problem, or problems were (are), but it's not a stretch of the imagination to think that it might be related to the all new sensor an/or the firmware that drives it.
My advice to all the potential M240 buyers out there (especially those like teeraash who currently don't own an M9) would be to not be in a rush for a camera that is new and different in almost every way from the previous generation. I realize there is a burning desire to leapfrog the antiquated M8/M9 crowd with the newest, latest, greatest Leica, but for those of us who have been through numerous delays, recalls, patches, UV/IR filter solutions the best bet might just be to let all the bugs shake out before plunking down $7K. At least your wife will think you are smart.
As others here have said it is much better to spend the next 6-12 months capturing stunning images with the M8-M9-MM or M-E and let the dust settle on the new "wunderkind" instead of waiting at the alter for a bride who is not yet ready to walk down the aisle.
The did the S release almost right . I expected that they would either (1) increase the MP to the 60-70 range or (2) make the conversion to CMOS more to insure a reliable supply of sensors more than anything else .
But instead they make 80 small improvements (individually small) to correct limitations or add capabilities . Faster cards ,larger buffers , more accurate AF ,refined high ISO improvements etc . Lower price and 3 year warranty . Finally the release of the CF lenses as well as an ultra wide,T/S and zoom lenses.
A better value proposition than the S2 was when it was new and available before Christmas . Good decision IMHO.
For the new M,they could have gone with the Dalsa CCD at about 24MP and leveraged the maestro processor for one more EV of ISO performance . Then the next S could be a Dalsa 48MP. But they didn t ask me ! LOL
But the new M is a much bigger deal ..worthy of some speculation .
Me an my "antiquated M9" are gonna go out and take pictures now.
K THX BYE
It's not like you have nothing to shoot with... Come on! Few more months in an issue? Don't look at the Leica's perspective. Look from your personal/professional side. Do you need a camera this moment? Do you have anything to shoot with? Than shoot. If you need the most technologically advanced image recoreder, go buy gh3 or dx000 or what ever. Don't waste time with Leica...
Maybe there are too many M-E's sitting around at Solms and on dealer shelves so the "delay" perhaps fits right into their hands from that standpoint. I know the dealer nearest me does not do well with the M-E, but sells every used M9P, M9 that comes to him within a very short period of time. In the last month he has sold about 8 used M9/M9P no matter the color, but 1 or 2 new M-E--no matter the color.
My only comment is this: the Leica rep told me last week that they were still on for a February deliveries. I'll get an update from him again next week, but my question now is, who is the source, and how reliable are they?
I never quite understood the need to announce at Photokina, just to announce at Photokina. The Leica community is relatively small. An announcement at a later date makes a lot more sense, to me at least. It's not like no one would notice the announcement just because it wasn't at Photokina. There is also a lot to be said about not having to share the ink with all the other big names in the industary...when you can have it all to yourself.
Being in product development for most of my career, I too have made the mistake (more than once) of announcing something at the largest industry trade show, and then running into unforeseen difficulties and delays in shipping. After enduring the consequences of pre-announcements, I decided that it was far better to announce something at a later date, once all the bugs were worked out and production had started. Buyers purchase on impulse; if they have months to wait, they will often change their minds.
Of course, many companies don't care. They simply pre-announce to keep customers from buying from the competition, as a strategy. But Leica has no real direct competition...there is no Contax digital rangefinder with Zeiss glass. (Unfortunately.)
What if Leica were to announce the M in April 2013, and start shipping two weeks hence? Does anyone really think they'd sell fewer units or generate less press than with a Photokina September 2012 announcement? I would argue they might even book MORE, due to impulse buying...of course, Leica has issues with production throughput, but that's another discussion.
I am actually selling my M9 because I am number one at my dealer in France
I am not afraid that the new M could be far behind the competitors (to do what with it ??) , the M9 is already good enough as most of the new cameras
I only need a M9 with liveview and EVF
All is ok for me
You can't win in this game.
On the one hand what all companies want to do is wait until they have a good product ready, announce it in a big splash, then have it on the shelves for delivery. This delayed announcement strategy runs flat in the face of consumers who want more and more 'road map' information up front or they go elsewhere. Doing it. The company is called slow, behind the curve, etc.
Then you have the other strategy of announcing early, and weathering the persistent whinging of the consumers looking for samples, waiting for the release, etc etc.
Even with different points of view its very hard to get on the same page with you . Personally I have more equipment than I could every use and absolutely do not require any new equipment . I don t want or need a lecture about "just shooting with my M9 s " .
The new M on paper provides some capabilities that would be nice to have for street shooting especially my trips to europe this fall . Better high ISO performance and the ability to use an EVF if appropriate end the capabilities of the already superb M9 . Those are capabilities that can extend my ability to shoot when the light is sometimes best . They are important to me and I have felt the M9 has been lacking in these areas for a number of years .
I fully appreciate that for many others ..even acquiring an new M is a wait and see . Since you appear to be in that group ..then a delay may not seem even relevant to others .
My POV is that Leica has identified problems (again and again ) that are sufficient to delay the introduction of their most business critical product . Some have attributed this to Leica just wanting to get this right . I don t believe this and there is no evidence to support it ..wishful thinking ?
So what ? Shoot with your M9s ? Ok one option and beginning to look like the prudent choice . Personally I want to get on with it and rework my processes to get the best out of the new generation M ....but a delay like this on top of a very slow product introduction ...just reminds me that Leica will probably not get this right in the first batch .
Thats really not good for anyone that relies on the M system . Remember the recall on the M8 ,the inadequate planning for IR/UV filters , the lack of capacity for 6 bit coding and lens calibration ..took an entire year to calibrate my system . The MONO launch was excellent ....maybe we will get lucky with the new M .
I don t care a bit about waiting 2 extra months but if the new M has problems ..thats a different matter .
Its fine to disagree ....if your and others needs are different Ok .
If you don t care if Leica has problems with the new M Ok.
Not sure to what end you post on these threads ?
Roger, I agree...the evidence is lacking. Especially when things are said to be a 'go' through the sales channel for delivery this month, and then suddenly the word is 'no go.'
Every company has unforeseen issues crop up...this is why it's not necessarily a 'No win' to announce, then ship. This method hides any hiccups that might pop up. These 'unforseen delays' just end up giving customers doubts, bringing to mind past failures the company has had to overcome, such as the UV/IR debacle. Not good for the brand.
The story of the original iPhone glass in Jobs biography comes to mind...it was only an internal delay, not a public one.
And speaking of Apple, they develop and produce products and have millions in the pipeline ready to ship at the time of announcement. I got my iPad Mini two weeks after the press release. Of course, Apple sets the standard for efficiency and quality management, but it should not be this difficult for a company the size of Leica to do things in the same manner...or at least get somewhat close.
I am not a Leica apologetic but I tend to be a stoic and pragmatic person. I use my existing equipment and my interest in new announcements is only of scientific curiosity rather than lust and desire. I will buy a product only when it has been tested and prooved and refined, towards the middle of its life cycle. I bought my brand new M9 only in last September and it has been working flawlessly (except for an issue with a Sandisk card). I don't care when Leica releases the M 240 and when it will be widely available. I will buy one when I feel it is a mature product which can be next month or next year or never. I do not understand why people get so emotional about new products. It's as if Leica has an obligation of some sort. Some on another forum described the delay as adding insult to injury. Go figure.
I want my M 240, and I want it NOW!!!!
M262 ZM 25/2.8 35/1.4 50/2 85/2
As I said above, no win.
And no patience.
And a fatalistic expectation of problems. No matter what.
You make looking forward to a new camera from Leica into a dreary thing.
Bad business is just that, bad business. From the time I ordered my H4D60 until it was delivered nine months passed. Nothing from Hasselblad, no apologies, no word of any kind. My dealer, Hassy reps, no one could tell me anything until the week I got the camera. New cameras are all alike; vaporware. It is understandable that Hasselblad announced vaporware. They were trying to stall off the rush to Phase One with the early announcement of the H3DII60/H4D60. Leica has no excuse since they are the only game in town. I know, I know there are alternatives, but Leicafiles are loyal to the point they give a pass to the company when they falter. Looks now like I'll be waiting the same amount of time (nine months) for the new M. At least Leica did not come up with something as goofy as the Lunar. And the H4D60 came without issues or bugs. It worked flawlessly from day one.
As far as a fatalistic expectation, one uses history as a guide.
Will two months make a difference, in the long term? Of course not. They will ship the camera at the same time they always would have; it's just the announce date that creates the problem. And the small blow of the reputation and brand. The only way to overcome negative recent history is by performance.
Leica also should firm up their NDAs, and stop giving out pre-release products to the unqualified.
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Since the M-E's are not flying off the shelves of the Leica dealer closest to me, but the M9/M9P are flying off their used shelves (8 in one month), it seems this delay can maybe help Leica rid some stocks of the M-E.
For me it is more important how good the final product works than the question if it comes to market some weeks (or even months) earlier or later.
But I am also a Leica (and Canon and Zeiss and Olympus and Linhof) Fanboy.
Anybody know where I can get a new black M9P? I don't know whether to or
I'm sure the new M will be a fine camera, and it will be in the stores likely long before I'm planning to buy one. Beyond that, I'm outta this thread. Too much negativity and consumer expectation anxiety being expressed for my taste. :-\