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New Mini M?

D&A

Well-known member
My feeling is that Leica in the recent past always went the conservative approach (route) with cameras that were marketed below the top of the line M cameras (like the M8, M8.2, M9 and new M). This time I'd love to see something a little more daring and innovative that still might be an entry way to interchangeable M lens photography. This could be one of three possibilities.

The first would be a nice replacement to the original M8/M8.2 and have a 1.3x or Aps sized sensor in a modern day version of the Leica CL. Due to the lengths of the rangefinder base, frame lines in a traditional Leica style rangefinder would be more limited than a M8/M9 body, but this digital CL would be more compact with the possible introduction of very small Leica CL sized M lenses (28, 40 and 90mm.

The 2nd route might be a small sized digital CL type body that takes M lenses but without the traditional Leica rangefinder, but instead have either built in EVF or optional add on EVF. Either way this body would have a very large rear LCD.

Of course a 3rd option would be a digital Leica CL type body with both a traditional rangefinder and optional EVF...somewhat kin to the new M but smaller with a rangefinder base that again allowed more limited choice of frame lines but introduced some small compact CL type lenses.

Either way, a body that took traditional M mount lenses but benefited from slower speed smaller, less expensive CL type M lenses.

Dave (D&A)
 

jaapv

Subscriber Member
I doubt that it's a new mount, to risky. An M-mount CL size camera with 35mm sensor would be nice, but m4/3 is more likely. They make a couple of lenses for that already, and that market is much, much larger. A Leica version of the rumoured Panasonic GX2?
4/3rds is highly unlikely. Leica wrote that system off definitively with the Digilux3 and does not make lenses for it. The ones you mean are made by Panasonic with Leica cooperating in the design phase only.

Additionally, the camera is positioned between the X2 and the M. An m4/3rds sensor cannot touch the image quality of an APS-C sensor like the X2, so that alone rules it out.
 

CVickery

Member
My suspicion is that like most camera manufacturers, Leica makes more money on lenses than bodies and they seem to have sufficient production capacity at the moment to meet demand and then some. This would seem to suggest that a somewhat reduced capability M-mount body would be a profitable approach. My personal preference would be a smaller body, FF sensor, with an integrated EVF and M-mount.
 

jonoslack

Active member
HI Jaap
I hope that you're well
4/3rds is highly unlikely. Leica wrote that system off definitively with the Digilux3 and does not make lenses for it. The ones you mean are made by Panasonic with Leica cooperating in the design phase only.
I quite agree with you here

Additionally, the camera is positioned between the X2 and the M. An m4/3rds sensor cannot touch the image quality of an APS-C sensor like the X2, so that alone rules it out.

I radically disagree here - it seems to be a universally held belief that the APS-c sensor is so much bigger and that µ43 can never compete in terms of image quality:

If you happen to like the 4/3 format, then the vertical difference is really small - this is not the difference between good image quality and bad. However, the reduced image circle required really does make a difference between lens size possibilities.

So - whilst I agree with you that Leica aren't going down the µ43 route - I think it's actually rather a mistake.

 

Paratom

Well-known member
Looking forward to whatever it is.
Maybe I can finally step out of m4/3 and replace it with an Mini M.
I agree that the IQ difference between m4/3 and dx-size isn't so big any more.

The other question will be... when will it be available?
And the even more interesting question for me... when will the M 240 be available (for more than a few lucky people).
 

jaapv

Subscriber Member
I radically disagree here - it seems to be a universally held belief that the APS-c sensor is so much bigger and that µ43 can never compete in terms of image quality:
Best to you as well Jono :)
You miss my point, I fear. If one positions a camera between an APS-C camera and a fullframe one, it cannot be a 4/3rds sensor, no matter whether the image quality differs not at all, marginally or quite a bit. Marketing has to take general perception into account.

It might be diffferent if Leica would not have presented the camera as one of a tiered family.
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
Looking forward to whatever it is.
Maybe I can finally step out of m4/3 and replace it with an Mini M.
I agree that the IQ difference between m4/3 and dx-size isn't so big any more.

The other question will be... when will it be available?
And the even more interesting question for me... when will the M 240 be available (for more than a few lucky people).
1) stepping out now of m43 with the new EP5 - you will mist the best of m43 so far!

2) while the IQ difference between m43 and APSC is pretty small today, we should not forget that APSC is going to make the next big step (or has already - see Nikon D7100 with 24MP). It will sure take much longer for m43 to get there - and even then APSC will have made the next step already.

But end of the day I agree, that IQ differences are getting smaller and less noticeable in everyday photography.

I do though not feel so strong about that new Leica product, whatever sensor size it is, as it will again take ages for them to get it right.
 
V

Vivek

Guest
Even for "high light" there are huge differences and it will never get better as the larger sensor technology is also improving by leaps and bounds.

To say that the mini sensors are better or almost as good is, at best, BS.
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
Even for "high light" there are huge differences and it will never get better as the larger sensor technology is also improving by leaps and bounds.

To say that the mini sensors are better or almost as good is, at best, BS.
But you can say, that the smaller sensors are becoming as good that the differences are in the almost no longer noticeable areas.

A difference will be always there!
 
V

Vivek

Guest
Yes, only if you compare an EP1 to an EP2 to an EP3 and so forth. Once in a while someone will be posting saying that an EM-5 or EP-5 is better or almost as good as something with an APS-C sensor only to be super seeded by the next generation APS-C sensored camera. :D

Current generation micro 4/3rds will always be inferior to a current generation APS-C. That is the bottom line.
 

peterv

New member
Looking forward to whatever it is.
Maybe I can finally step out of m4/3 and replace it with an Mini M.
I agree that the IQ difference between m4/3 and dx-size isn't so big any more.

The other question will be... when will it be available?
And the even more interesting question for me... when will the M 240 be available (for more than a few lucky people).
Hi Tom,
I just got an email from Martin Meister and it said:
Die ersten mini LEICAs werden voraussichtlich gleich am 11. Juni verfügbar sein - in begrenzter Menge.
And:
Bei der neuen M (Typ 240) ist leider weiterhin weitaus mehr Geduld erforderlich als bei der neuen ? MINI M zu erwarten ist. LEICA schafft es nicht, die enorme Nachfrage zu befriedigen.

Rough translation: A small amount of the new Leicas will be available as of june, 11. As for the new M, please be patient, Leica is unable to deliver fast, due to the large demand.
 

fotoism

Member
...
Current generation micro 4/3rds will always be inferior to a current generation APS-C. That is the bottom line.
Is that due to pixel size alone no matter what algorithm is used, given the same pixel count on both sensors (smaller pixels on m43 and larger pixels on APS-C)?
 

jonoslack

Active member
Current generation micro 4/3rds will always be inferior to a current generation APS-C. That is the bottom line.
Yes Vivek - it's undeniable
Just as true as saying that a car which does 133 miles per hour is inferior to one that does 157 mph . . . . . or a camera which will do a 26.6" print is inferior to one which does a 31.4" print.

But if µ43 is a 'mini' sensor - then so is APS-C.

In the real world of real photos, the difference is likely to be much less than that that caused by a lens, or by an AA filter or by many other things.

all the best
 

jaapv

Subscriber Member
Probably nice enough, something of an X3. Wise of Leica to leak. The expectations were getting out of hand, with the attendant crash to earth on June 11th. This way it is a soft landing.
 

Shashin

Well-known member
Looks like an upgraded X rather than a downgraded M. Still, if they put the flash where the rangefinder window should be, it would "almost" be an M. Or at least almost look like it. Except for the zoom that is.
 

douglasf13

New member
Probably nice enough, something of an X3. Wise of Leica to leak. The expectations were getting out of hand, with the attendant crash to earth on June 11th. This way it is a soft landing.
Good point, although, from the looks of it, this is probably worse than I could have imagined.
 
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