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New Mini M?

JSRockit

New member
Out of curiosity, how much would have been involved for Leica to have made basically the same exact camera, but had it accept/mount interchangeable M lenses? They still could have developed and offered the same zoom lens but at the same time filled in the gap between the X2 and current full frame M cameras. I assume it would have been the same size and still could have targeted two different sales markets. The one it was originally designed to attract and those that use and prefer to use M mount lenses designed.
Leica is not going to make another manul focus lens system. If you want a new M, you have to buy the $7000 model.

Then if this new camera proved successful as a someone more affordable way to get into Leica M photography, Leica could always have the option in the future to market Smaller and possibly less expensive APS sized (only) lenses, although they wouldn't necessarily have to invest in them. I just get the feelings that if they had designed and marketed this new camera this way, they would have possibly had the potential for a longer production run, greater market appeal and sales and the option to continue to develop this entry level M system...not to mention a percentage of users eventually moving up to the full frame "M".
This camera fills a very important niche for Leica. It is for the non-photographer who walks into a Leica boutique, falls in love with the brand, wants to make an impulse buy, doesn't want to buy a M and prime lens for $10,000, doesn't want a fixed lens camera (X2), and requires a zoom. Now Leica can offer this to them. Most people are disapointed because they were not the target buyer for the product. Most people here will bitch and complain about Leica not making a cheap er M, but then wouldn't buy it if they did.
 
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Vivek

Guest
Out of curiosity, how much would have been involved for Leica to have made basically the same exact camera, but had it accept/mount interchangeable M lenses? They still could have developed and offered the same zoom lens but at the same time filled in the gap between the X2 and current full frame M cameras. I assume it would have been the same size and still could have targeted two different sales markets. The one it was originally designed to attract and those that use and prefer to use M mount lenses designed.

Then if this new camera proved successful as a someone more affordable way to get into Leica M photography, Leica could always have the option in the future to market Smaller and possibly less expensive APS sized (only) lenses, although they wouldn't necessarily have to invest in them. I just get the feelings that if they had designed and marketed this new camera this way, they would have possibly had the potential for a longer production run, greater market appeal and sales and the option to continue to develop this entry level M system...not to mention a percentage of users eventually moving up to the full frame "M".

Dave (D&A)

Dave (D&A)


It is better this way. Landfill material with a dated sensor/technology.

It is the NEX-5N sensor. The NEX-6 has PD AF sensors built in the sensor.

Wish they had not said that this was the "Mini M".

Did you see the unboxing videos? Jewellery box. Unfortunately cardboard and not lacquered real wood. They could have used Greek Mastic to be distinct.

That is a bigger let down. :(
 

D&A

Well-known member
Leica is not going to make another manul focus lens system. If you want a new M, you have to buy the $7000 model.



This camera fills a very important niche for Leica. It is for the non-photographer who walks into a Leica boutique, falls in love with the brand, wants to make an impulse buy, doesn't want to buy a M and prime lens for $10,000, doesn't want a fixed lens camera (X2), and requires a zoom. Now Leica can offer this to them. Most people are disapointed because they were not the target buyer for the product. Most people here will bitch and complain about Leica not making a cheap er M, but then wouldn't buy it if they did.
I somehow feel you may have mis-understood the intention of my original post. I wasn't suggesting that they develop another whole manual focus lens system. Simply develop this X2 Vario but have it have an interchangeable lens mount. The same market they originally were targeting wouldn't change as the camera could be offered in a simple kit with that zoom lens. Yet in addition to that market would be a number of other markets such as those current M9/M-E and new "M" users looking for a 2nd body (possibly back-up) that has attributes and strengths different than say their current M9. Namely an EVF, focus peaking, more compact body etc. Then a third market would be those who don't want a mechanical rangefinder body but prefer those with EVF, focus peaking etc. but want to get into M lens photography due to their great optics.

This sort of camera would I believe would appeal to a much wider and diverse audience and wouldn't take away from current M body sales but I believe greatly add to them and it certainly wouldn't take away from the exclusivity of that $7,000 club, so to speak.

Dave (D&A)
 

JSRockit

New member
It's targeted towards the well-heeled, brand-conscious, who know nothing about photography. Those that buy watches or jewelry or artwork on a whim while on a cruise shore excursion. And Leica will probably sell as many as they want to sell; it's not about market share or volume.
I agree. Many are just mad Leica didn't make a $1000 M digital rangefinder.
 

JSRockit

New member
This sort of camera would I believe would appeal to a much wider and diverse audience and wouldn't take away from current M body sales but I believe greatly add to them and it certainly wouldn't take away from the exclusivity of that $7,000 club, so to speak.
Luxury brands do not want to cater to the masses.
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
Out of curiosity, how much would have been involved for Leica to have made basically the same exact camera, but had it accept/mount interchangeable M lenses? ...
Quite a lot, I suspect. Just the lack of focal plane shutter makes it a big deal. Forget offering the same zoom lens and features as an option.

But I would like to see an XM.

G
 
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Vivek

Guest
Quite a lot, I suspect. Just the lack of focal plane shutter makes it a big deal. Forget offering the same zoom lens and features as an option.

But I would like to see an XM.

G
What would that be?

Even Pentax Q, Nikon 1, EOS-M and such come with a focal plane shutter.
 

edwardkaraa

New member
Afaik, Leica didn't stop making cameras yet. Who knows what the next one would be. Maybe the XM so many here seem to desperately want?
 

jonoslack

Active member
It's targeted towards the well-heeled, brand-conscious, who know nothing about photography. Those that buy watches or jewelry or artwork on a whim while on a cruise shore excursion. And Leica will probably sell as many as they want to sell; it's not about market share or volume.
Do you know Robert - I think this is a patronising attitude, and it's also really not very likely.

It's not a point and shoot - it's encouraging you to use manual controls - it also has very good image quality - as good as the primes in most cameras.
. . . . but that's not the point.

I've seen hundreds of posts now from people saying/implying that people who don't read photo forums know nothing about photography - this is clearly rubbish.

Saying that only people who know nothing about photography would buy this camera is also rubbish.

My wife has had many cameras inflicted on her over the years, but the only one she has really liked is a Pentax K1000 which she was given by her father for a birthday present - in about 1995 she dropped it and broke the lens mount. Since then I've tried this and that, and she just hasn't liked them.

This camera she does like - she can choose the aperture and shutter speed (or not) focus herself (or not) and it produces really good images, sharp to the corner every time. She never needs to go in the menus, its all there on the body, obvious and easy to get at - There must be thousands of people like this - she knows plenty about photography and NOTHING about photo forums.

When this camera arrived on my doorstep in December I thought DOH! why wouldn't I use an OMD with the 12-35. The reason is that this takes better pictures and is more fun to use - and the proof of this is that I have both of these cameras sitting on the sideboard, and I tend to grab one of them when I'm out walking the dog - it's almost always the Leica.

The slowness of the lens is a symptom of it's raison d'être - it's a really really good lens - like that 28-90, and it only manages to be that good, and that small, by being that slow!

Sorry to be grumpy - but insulting people who decide to buy something you don't want is (I think) pretty poor form.

:lecture: off
All the best
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
Do you know Robert - I think this is a patronising attitude, and it's also really not very likely.

It's not a point and shoot - it's encouraging you to use manual controls - it also has very good image quality - as good as the primes in most cameras.
. . . . but that's not the point.

I've seen hundreds of posts now from people saying/implying that people who don't read photo forums know nothing about photography - this is clearly rubbish.

Saying that only people who know nothing about photography would buy this camera is also rubbish.

My wife has had many cameras inflicted on her over the years, but the only one she has really liked is a Pentax K1000 which she was given by her father for a birthday present - in about 1995 she dropped it and broke the lens mount. Since then I've tried this and that, and she just hasn't liked them.

This camera she does like - she can choose the aperture and shutter speed (or not) focus herself (or not) and it produces really good images, sharp to the corner every time. She never needs to go in the menus, its all there on the body, obvious and easy to get at - There must be thousands of people like this - she knows plenty about photography and NOTHING about photo forums.

When this camera arrived on my doorstep in December I thought DOH! why wouldn't I use an OMD with the 12-35. The reason is that this takes better pictures and is more fun to use - and the proof of this is that I have both of these cameras sitting on the sideboard, and I tend to grab one of them when I'm out walking the dog - it's almost always the Leica.

The slowness of the lens is a symptom of it's raison d'être - it's a really really good lens - like that 28-90, and it only manages to be that good, and that small, by being that slow!

Sorry to be grumpy - but insulting people who decide to buy something you don't want is (I think) pretty poor form.

:lecture: off
All the best
Only used one for a shot test in Leica Store Vienna today and I fully back your statements now Jono!

What a relief after being forced to use cameras like OMD or even Fuji X Pro 1, which are both excellent cameras and value for their money, but do not give me the real kick to use them all the time.

The Leica X Vario gave me that kick instantly when I touched it first time and especially with that EVF, which is not even state of the art anymore, I could operate it even more intuitively and the image quality of the EVF is still superior to lot of other EVFs with even higher resolution I know from Fuji, Sony etc.

This is a really great "all in one for everyday" camera.
 
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Vivek

Guest
Do you know Robert - I think this is a patronising attitude, and it's also really not very likely.

It's not a point and shoot - it's encouraging you to use manual controls - it also has very good image quality - as good as the primes in most cameras.
. . . . but that's not the point.

I've seen hundreds of posts now from people saying/implying that people who don't read photo forums know nothing about photography - this is clearly rubbish.

Saying that only people who know nothing about photography would buy this camera is also rubbish.

My wife has had many cameras inflicted on her over the years, but the only one she has really liked is a Pentax K1000 which she was given by her father for a birthday present - in about 1995 she dropped it and broke the lens mount. Since then I've tried this and that, and she just hasn't liked them.

This camera she does like - she can choose the aperture and shutter speed (or not) focus herself (or not) and it produces really good images, sharp to the corner every time. She never needs to go in the menus, its all there on the body, obvious and easy to get at - There must be thousands of people like this - she knows plenty about photography and NOTHING about photo forums.

When this camera arrived on my doorstep in December I thought DOH! why wouldn't I use an OMD with the 12-35. The reason is that this takes better pictures and is more fun to use - and the proof of this is that I have both of these cameras sitting on the sideboard, and I tend to grab one of them when I'm out walking the dog - it's almost always the Leica.

The slowness of the lens is a symptom of it's raison d'être - it's a really really good lens - like that 28-90, and it only manages to be that good, and that small, by being that slow!

Sorry to be grumpy - but insulting people who decide to buy something you don't want is (I think) pretty poor form.

:lecture: off
All the best
Sorry to say that you are losing it, Jono.

Robert sells Leica cameras/lenses.

I don't know what you are trying to do? :confused:
 

jonoslack

Active member
Sorry to say that you are losing it, Jono.

Robert sells Leica cameras/lenses.

I don't know what you are trying to do? :confused:
I know exactly who Robert is - which is why I made my point - I like and respect him, and I think he does a grand job here.

I think I haven't made my point clear - forget the camera - it's irrelevant, there are two things people are doing/saying which really get up my nose, I think it's rude and offensive and only reflects back on themselves - they are:

1. Saying/Implying that someone knows nothing about photography if they don't want a camera one doesn't personally like/approve of.
2. Saying/Implying that someone who doesn't read photo forums knows nothing about photography

I apologise to Robert for giving it to him in the neck over it, it is just because I do respect him so much and I was surprised.

. . . and yes, I am losing my patience a little, it's being said over and over and over again. . .. .

As I say - forget this camera it isn't the point.

bleah!
 

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
The ergonomics (feel in your hand ,use of menus ,ease of use ) are clearly difficult to evaluate from a spec sheet. It looks like the new Vario has the Leica feel and ease of use and this is important .

When the S2 came out I knew it was a leica just by the feel . Try it close your eyes and fire off a few frames . It had the smoothness and feel in my hands to tell me its a Leica . Most long time M users would say that nothing quite fells the same as a M and each new generation is critically evaluated on even small changes to the sound of the shutter .

The new Sony Rx1 has a great feel ..its got the weight and solid feel of a durable camera ..well made and the quality materials are obvious . The Fuji s less so and the ease of operation ,menus ,viewfinders etc have required constant firmware updates . Even if the Fuji is competitive on specifications .

Nevertheless...the decision to use a slow zoom is questionable even with the wonderful wrapping provided by the Vario .....you just can t shoot much available light work with a zoom this slow .
 

monza

Active member
Jono, my post was not meant as an insult to anyone. It's just my analysis of the market for this camera. I made no comment about the operability or image quality or feel or handling or anything else. I'm quite sure it's a fine camera!

But truly, anyone who puts in a modest amount of effort will find that it is significantly more expensive than other products with better specs; not just 20 or 50%, but nearly three times more expensive. Perhaps my "know nothing about photography" was a bit strong; maybe "don't take time to investigate the market before making their purchase" would be more accurate. Of course, there are always exceptions; there will be people who *do* the reasearch and choose the X Vario, and more power to them. As stated, these are the exceptions that prove the rule.

In any event, my comment stands. This is an upper-market camera, targeted at those that value brand. If it isn't this, then what is it? :)

Maybe this will be a success for Leica. Since none of us know how Leica has defined 'success' we probably won't really know.
 
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Vivek

Guest
It is all a matter of semantics. One post above monza's original post said the same and that poster is as good a supporter that Leica could ever count on, AFAIK.

None of the posters who said nice things about the camera said, "I will buy it for full retail price". In fact they all said, "this is not the camera for me".
 

doug

Well-known member
In any event, my comment stands. This is an upper-market camera, targeted at those that value brand. If it isn't this, then what is it? :)
Some people value enjoying using a camera more than they value spec sheets. The best camera is the one you have with you, and if you enjoy using it it's more likely you'll have it with you.
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
Some people value enjoying using a camera more than they value spec sheets. The best camera is the one you have with you, and if you enjoy using it it's more likely you'll have it with you.
Exactly the point!

Also one has to admit that there is at least a certain level of technology and specs needed before that happens and this threshold is different for everybody and maybe also differs with age one reached.

At least for me this magical thing happened today - really enjoying the X Vario and being fully satisfied with it and the images it produces. Once this happens it clicks and you know you are there!
 

jonoslack

Active member
In any event, my comment stands. This is an upper-market camera, targeted at those that value brand. If it isn't this, then what is it? :)
HI Robert
I didn't criticise that part of your statement!

It was the ludicrous concept of designing a camera which screams to be used manually . . . .. and then marketing it to people who know nothing about photography!

But I have to say that much usage has rather modified my view of the value of specs - sure, as Roger says - if you want to shoot low light then a slow zoom isn't it (although 12,500 ISO and a built in flash helps). But what if you don't want to shoot low light?

Anyway - enough of that one - I apologise for picking on you!

____________________________________________________

Everything has compromises:

Lots of us are willing to use a lovely vintage lens even though it's subject to lots of flare - because it has virtues which we value.

This lens has the virtue of being very very good quality - corner to corner at all apertures (such as they are) and focal lengths - Sean Reid's remark that you can have two of three things in a zoom:
1. small size
2. excellent quality edge to edge
3. wide aperture
is very pertinent - in this case Leica have chosen 1&2 - many manufacturers chose 1&3 (and most users don't notice).

Comparisons between the excellent Panasonic 12-35 and this Leica lens are pertinent - we all know how good the Panasonic is - but I don't think it's as good as the Leica - and it's a bit bigger, even though it's designed for a smaller sensor - and it extends much more than the Leica Lens.

Worth mentioning that in the UK at least, an OMD+12-35 is getting close to the price of the Leica as well. Of course - the OMD combo has lots of other things going for it (I won't go through them) . . . . . but if you don't need/want these other things?

Choose your poison (at least we all agree that zooms are poison :) )

If you said that Leica have designed this camera for people who are not photo-geeks then I'd quite agree with you . . . (I've even said it). But it's not the same thing.

All the best
 
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