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New Mini M?

jonoslack

Active member
The Fuji 18-55 zoom is at f/4 at 46mm as opposed to f/6.4 (plus it goes all the way to 55mm at the same aperture, plus it has OIS, plus it's interchangeable.) Not to mention the fact that it's perhaps the best APS-C zoom in this range, with superb performance and rendering. By any measure the Leica specs are underwhelming. It's more akin to the Olympus 12-50...
Not in quality it isn't - buy hey - it seems that a stop slower means that quality is no longer of any relevance?
 

philber

Member
I guess one needs both, Jono. Speed so that you are in a position to shoot the way you want. And quality once you shoot. Certainly, for 2500$/€, you ought to have at least a reasonable measure of both IMHO.
 

ShooterSteve

New member
To say it bluntly, if you think this camera is for you, go and buy one. If you think it's not for you, shut the f*#% up and move on. This is the principle I have always followed on the forums. Bashing a product, or the company producing it, because it doesn't suit my personal criteria, would be really pointless. Not directed at anyone in particular, more like a note to myself.
I don't agree. I am sure Leica reps read these blogs and any manufacturer welcomes feedback from it's loyal customer base. Although Leica probably has two or three customer bases. I'm sure there were also many in the Leica company that were against this camera, and who probably welcome our criticism to lend support to their opinions. If the camera sells and is profitable - great for Leica. We all win by one of our favorite camera manufacturers staying in the black.
 

edwardkaraa

New member
I don't agree. I am sure Leica reps read these blogs and any manufacturer welcomes feedback from it's loyal customer base. Although Leica probably has two or three customer bases. I'm sure there were also many in the Leica company that were against this camera, and who probably welcome our criticism to lend support to their opinions. If the camera sells and is profitable - great for Leica. We all win by one of our favorite camera manufacturers staying in the black.
I am afraid that is all wishful thinking.
 

edwardkaraa

New member
I guess one needs both, Jono. Speed so that you are in a position to shoot the way you want. And quality once you shoot. Certainly, for 2500$/€, you ought to have at least a reasonable measure of both IMHO.
2500€ doesn't mean much in the Leica world. I'm sure one stop faster would have meant at least 1000€ extra, more bulk, or more expensive aspherical elements. I have the feeling Leica had the price point as the most important criteria in designing this camera.

Tbh, I wouldn't have bought the XV even if it had a faster lens, and I'm sure for some who are interested in such camera, the slow lens will not deter them from buying it. I think most of the uproar is caused by people hoping/wishing for an interchangeable lens camera more than any other reason.
 

philber

Member
Had it been f;2.8 to f:4.0 with good close-up performance, and a tilt screen I would probably have ordered one by now.
 

stephengilbert

Active member
I think at least some of the uproar ("tempest in a teapot") is the result of the Leica apologists acting like this is another great product. If you've been dreaming of a camera with this size sensor and a zoom lens like that offered here, i.e., if this is exactly what you've been waiting for, maybe the new cam is a great idea. To you.

If not, maybe it isn't. There are some great things about it; to me, the ability to manually choose a focus point is one, but still ....
 

jonoslack

Active member
I think at least some of the uproar ("tempest in a teapot") is the result of the Leica apologists acting like this is another great product.
You're probably right Stephen. Clearly I'm an apologist . . but I'm an apologist with 6 months usage under my belt (who was also horrified at first sight).

It distresses me that nobody gives a toss about the (excellent) image quality - they only care about the (sadly) slow lens.

but hey
 

monza

Active member
Not in quality it isn't - buy hey - it seems that a stop slower means that quality is no longer of any relevance?
I was simply stating the Vario lens is more akin to the Olympus in specs than the faster Fuji with OIS.

You're probably right Stephen. Clearly I'm an apologist . . but I'm an apologist with 6 months usage under my belt (who was also horrified at first sight).

It distresses me that nobody gives a toss about the (excellent) image quality - they only care about the (sadly) slow lens.

but hey
Who says we don't? :)

I'll take your word for it Jono, regarding image quality. I never doubted it would be in the same league at least as the X1/X2, which I always admired for IQ.
 
V

Vivek

Guest
That is a confusing guess. How can the IQ of Micro Ms be compared that of a Mini M? How do they compare to the Ms and the S'?
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Personally, I don't think you are an apologist Jono.

Like everyone else, you have hopes for specific gear that fits your idea of what would be great ... however, upon getting something in hand, you take it for what it is, rather than what it could've been.

"Glass half full", and all that ... with the understanding that when it comes to photo gear, the glass will NEVER be full ... so the "glass half empty" folks will ALWAYS have something to bitch about ... including me :rolleyes:

- Marc
 

edwardkaraa

New member
I think at least some of the uproar ("tempest in a teapot") is the result of the Leica apologists acting like this is another great product. If you've been dreaming of a camera with this size sensor and a zoom lens like that offered here, i.e., if this is exactly what you've been waiting for, maybe the new cam is a great idea. To you.

If not, maybe it isn't. There are some great things about it; to me, the ability to manually choose a focus point is one, but still ....
I'm not a Leica apologist, and as mentioned, I'm not interested in this camera. Otoh, I'm not angry at Leica for not introducing a FF mirrorless M with integrated EVF that I was secretly wishing for. It seems that anyone who is not angry at leica is automatically labelled as apologist.
 

stephengilbert

Active member
Isn't there a middle ground? I'm not angry at Leica, and don't really care about this camera. But I think that after twenty or thirty posts arguing with people about it, maybe one should give it a rest.
 

philber

Member
I am also not angry at Leica, nor an apologist. I wish them well, but the consultant in me doesn't think that this new camera is going to give them the most "bang for their R&D buck".
I agree with Jono that it is sad that the specs are a turnoff for people before they look at the IQ. But let's face it, that can hardly come as a surprise, since you yourself "were horrified".
And, as for me, I am not interested simply because I can sort my shots in LR, and there are just too many that I shoot below f:6.4 on the long end. And I don't like shooting a lens wide open if I have a choice. Even my Summilux 50 is better stopped down to f:2.0 if I can afford it, light-and-DOF-wise. Which means a fixed-aperture on the long end at f:8.0.
The only way I'd consider changing my mind is if the IQ were so awesome that it would be a "must", whatever the other parameters. And, knowing the X1, X2 and Sony 16Mp sensor, I just can't see that in the XV. Very good IQ, certainly, but game-changing, definitely not. Let's see if I am wrong.
 

retow

Member
2500€ doesn't mean much in the Leica world. I'm sure one stop faster would have meant at least 1000€ extra, more bulk, or more expensive aspherical elements. I have the feeling Leica had the price point as the most important criteria in designing this camera.

Tbh, I wouldn't have bought the XV even if it had a faster lens, and I'm sure for some who are interested in such camera, the slow lens will not deter them from buying it. I think most of the uproar is caused by people hoping/wishing for an interchangeable lens camera more than any other reason.
Euro 2500 is an abstract number in market segments with no real competition. The digital Ms (and maybe the S2?) are in such a niche. The rest of the Leica camera offerings competes in highly competitive and price sensitive market segments with very capable contenders who have significantly changed the rules of the game for compact digitals in the last 2 years and will continue to innovate.
The X1 was relevant in 2009. Since then, Leica has not released anything convincing outside of their "owned" M segment.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
That is just it, who says that everything has to be a 'game changer"?

It is highly conceivable that this is a camera for the Leica "Luxury" Boutiques, where a potential "client" wants to "participate" but can't hack a manual focus camera/lens that costs $10,000+, yet still wants something like it, if in form and spirit only. In that retail environment sense, it IS a made in Germany Mini M.

In fact, that was the first thing that came to mind when I saw this camera/lens. Like those who buy a Mercedes C class sedan, or Lexus IS 250 to get a prestige Marquis, and reputation for excellence, even though they could purchase twice the vehicle from a marquis with less "cache".

It is marketing 101.

- Marc
 

philber

Member
Marc, if a Mercedes C-Class cost twice the price of a similar Volkswagen, except it had a significantly less powerful engine, your comparison would more closely resemble the X Vario. Yes, a C-Class cost more than a VW (or Toyota, or whichever mass-market brand you care to name), but (1) this extra cost is much, much less than what Leica are asking, and (b), while each of us have preferences in "what is best-in-class", it lacks in no form of performance in the same way as the speed of the XV zoom. The car industry also tried luxo-rebadging of mass market cars, like Cadillac branding of Opel cars. It didn't work out at all.
The reason I mentioned game-changing IQ is in order to make up for a very weak performance in lens speed. In my opinion Leica would have sold more 3000$/€+ X Varios with a f:2.8-f:4.0 zoom than what they chose to sell. But that is the opinion of just one person.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Euro 2500 is an abstract number in market segments with no real competition. The digital Ms (and maybe the S2?) are in such a niche. The rest of the Leica camera offerings competes in highly competitive and price sensitive market segments with very capable contenders who have significantly changed the rules of the game for compact digitals in the last 2 years and will continue to innovate.
The X1 was relevant in 2009. Since then, Leica has not released anything convincing outside of their "owned" M segment.
This assumes Leica is intent on competing in certain segments of the photo market ... which, according to their 2012 marketing initiative, they are not. They are intent on brand consolidation as a marquis standing for certain attributes, with less emphasis on trading blows with "here today, gone today" brands able to constantly change the technology criteria, (like the cell phone segment does).

In reality, this is a wise long term strategy for them since companies like Sony can, and seemingly do, launch a "camera a month", (often slight variations on a theme), to create a blizzard of photo tech toys more operationally akin to computer game interface, than a traditional camera interface. Granted, lots of people want all that stuff, but a few do not ... relatively speaking, Leica is after those few. Given their comparable size and pricing structure, all they need are those few.

- Marc
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Marc, if a Mercedes C-Class cost twice the price of a similar Volkswagen, except it had a significantly less powerful engine, your comparison would more closely resemble the X Vario. Yes, a C-Class cost more than a VW (or Toyota, or whichever mass-market brand you care to name), but (1) this extra cost is much, much less than what Leica are asking, and (b), while each of us have preferences in "what is best-in-class", it lacks in no form of performance in the same way as the speed of the XV zoom. The car industry also tried luxo-rebadging of mass market cars, like Cadillac branding of Opel cars. It didn't work out at all.
The reason I mentioned game-changing IQ is in order to make up for a very weak performance in lens speed. In my opinion Leica would have sold more 3000$/€+ X Varios with a f:2.8-f:4.0 zoom than what they chose to sell. But that is the opinion of just one person.
Again, IMO, Leica is not out to "directly" compete head-to-head with other brands ... but instead offer variations on their own Marque.

So, the Mercedes C class analogy I used was more about those intent on a Mercedes, but can't afford an E, or especially a S class. People are willing to put up with less room, less power, less standard features, less luxury to get the marquis, and what it stands for to them ... personified by the prominent tri-star grill on the C class vehicles.

It is the brand marquis that sets the purchase criteria ... not competitive brands that may offer more, but do not carry the same brand cache.

Your lux badging of mass market cars is directionally more like rebadging Panasonic in terms of an analogy. IMO, this camera is different, and reflects Leica's more recent marketing strategy of brand consolidation. Just take a moment to view the marketing for this camera that prominently touts phrases like these:

"The art of engineering, made in Germany"

"Leica M as role model."

Leica Camera AG - Photography - X Vario

Couple that with the X Vario tactile experience in a Leica boutique at some toni location, surrounded by Leica heritage, Leica Ms, S systems and a complimentary cappuccino ... and there you have it ... a sale. :) People with the "wants and gimmes" but not the means, can leave with something of the marquis in hand, because the Leica customer service associate has something to sell them.

Again, it is marketing 101.

- Marc
 
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