New Mini M?

[D&A]

Marc & Others,

I'm far from being involved in the world of traditional marketing 101 as being discussed but I always thought that when a entry level luxury brand product such as the X Vario is brought out for example, it is also hoped that it makes such an impact with the buyer, that they eventually hope to "trade up" within the brand. The example used above suggests this buyer for whatever reason wants or desires Af...that's fine. If they decide after a time of using and enjoying this product they would like to branch out to incorporate a wider or longer lens but keep the other attributes of EVF, focus peaking etc., it doesn't appear they have anywhere to go within the brand...unless they step up to a Leica S, which is doubtful. The new Leica M doesn't have AF. Below is a possible solution to this dilemma and more.

That's why I thought a good opportunity might have been missed by not introducing the exact same camera as the X Vario but incorporating the ability to change lenses by having a interchangeable M mount. This would not only have served the purpose of some of these buyers to expand out beyond the zoom they started with but also for Leica to offer the camera to some other of their other and current traditional users of the Leica brand. Yes, wider or longer M lenses as it stands now are strictly manual focus, but if the camera turned out to be successful for both their target market and others, it might have encouraged Leica to come out with a few small APS specific AF lenses along the lines and quality of the original zoom offered in order to allow growth within the system and thus keep their original entry level buyer from leaving for other green pastures.

At least with the example of the C class cars, anyone who purchases an entry level model has the choice of stepping up to a higher class version when desired and not loose the features that got them into their original model in the 1st place.

Although I know designing the X vario with an interchangeable M mount meant some compromises would have to be made, I think the tradeoff would have served the company well without loosing their original target audience, so to speak, while at the same time drawing in others. The $3,000 or slightly higher price tag to some, might have been a more readily accepted I believe and it might have been looked upon as a true gateway and model to entering the Leica "M" system, just as used examples of the Leica M8/M8.2 are now seen as some as a gateway to full frame interchangeable Leica M models such as the M9 and new M. Just some random thoughts.

Dave (D&A)

 

[ptomsu]

Interesting thoughts here!

Anyway I think that the X Vario is what it is and this was meant to be so by Leica. They could easily have gone the M mount path plus some selected AF lenses (zooms) but they decided to keep the XV just pure as it is.

Which IMHO is good. Once you touched it and played with it and have used other mirrorless cameras before - even with interchangeable lenses - you will just be relieved by the ease of use - which is typically Leica, but that alone will appeal to many and already be a unique buying point. Plus adding the high IQ and the wonderful haptics of Leica should make up for the rest.

If this does not appeal to one, they should just skip that product.

I am very happy the XV is what it is and has a fixed zoom. That could be the desired simplification for me when looking for a perfect "travel" companion which also can produce great images, even with some limitations.

Going to some exotic island with that cam or some great cities, where I absolutely do not want to carry a system camera and need to restrict to one or 2 lenses then with all the promise of Leica behind is just very appealing.

Photography just easy and great fun and still producing excellent result this seems to be the magic formula here.

 

[monza]

Wow, this is still going on?

Yes, the XV was built to the spec and to the price for a reason...only Leica knows what their definition of 'success' is, and it's definitely not market share or raw volume. I hope it is successful by their measure.

 

[fotografz]

Marc & Others,

I'm far from being involved in the world of traditional marketing 101 as being discussed but I always thought that when a entry level luxury brand product such as the X Vario is brought out for example, it is also hoped that it makes such an impact with the buyer, that they eventually hope to "trade up" within the brand. The example used above suggests this buyer for whatever reason wants or desires Af...that's fine. If they decide after a time of using and enjoying this product they would like to branch out to incorporate a wider or longer lens but keep the other attributes of EVF, focus peaking etc., it doesn't appear they have anywhere to go within the brand...unless they step up to a Leica S, which is doubtful. The new Leica M doesn't have AF. Below is a possible solution to this dilemma and more.

That's why I thought a good opportunity might have been missed by not introducing the exact same camera as the X Vario but incorporating the ability to change lenses by having a interchangeable M mount. This would not only have served the purpose of some of these buyers to expand out beyond the zoom they started with but also for Leica to offer the camera to some other of their other and current traditional users of the Leica brand. Yes, wider or longer M lenses as it stands now are strictly manual focus, but if the camera turned out to be successful for both their target market and others, it might have encouraged Leica to come out with a few small APS specific AF lenses along the lines and quality of the original zoom offered in order to allow growth within the system and thus keep their original entry level buyer from leaving for other green pastures.

At least with the example of the C class cars, anyone who purchases an entry level model has the choice of stepping up to a higher class version when desired and not loose the features that got them into their original model in the 1st place.

Although I know designing the X vario with an interchangeable M mount meant some compromises would have to be made, I think the tradeoff would have served the company well without loosing their original target audience, so to speak, while at the same time drawing in others. The $3,000 or slightly higher price tag to some, might have been a more readily accepted I believe and it might have been looked upon as a true gateway and model to entering the Leica "M" system, just as used examples of the Leica M8/M8.2 are now seen as some as a gateway to full frame interchangeable Leica M models such as the M9 and new M. Just some random thoughts.

Dave (D&A)

Dave, IMO, we keep layering on our hopes and dreams, not necessarily those needs of others whom this camera is aimed at. Currently, the next step up (albeit a big one) is the M240 type camera which can provide many of the attributes, except AF.

The notion that buyers may want to move up, but retain the same characteristics of the XV is premature. This is the first modern non-M camera to draw such specific support from the brand gestalt ... and I seriously doubt that it will be the last to do so. By the time Leica were to field a new set of interchangeable lenses for a camera like the XV, there will be a new camera necessary anyway.

I see two possible long term paths for Leica ... maintaining the M rangefinder as long as there are those will to pony up the price for that unique shooting experience ... and a slower, parallel path that eventually sees a small, high quality, mirrorless camera with AF lenses that adhere to the heritage of the brand ... all designed and made in Germany, while carrying the usual, exclusionary price tag. They are engaged in high-end brand building long term, rather than survival tactics of the past.

- Marc

 

[Shashin]

I think we get confused between what makes a good camera and what makes a good camera for "me." The XV is a good camera. Since I don't have to buy it, then it really does not matter if it is for me or not. Me not wanting it is not an indictment of the camera.

 

[philber]

Actually, shashin, there are not only "good" and "other" cameras, presumably "bad". There are also perfectly good cameras that happen not to be competitive in a fast moving marketplace. No doubt the XV is a perfectly good camera, meaning a camera that lets owners take good pictures. No doubt also the haptics and ease of use are very good indeed.
That per se does not make it competitive.
Now Leica fans will tell you that competitveness is not a goal for the company, and that there are people who will buy it strictly for the priviledge of belonging to the Leica owners' club. No doubt there are some people like that.
But there are also many photographers who look at a Leica product on its merits alone, as it suits and pleases them -or not. These people may buy Leica if they find the products competitive, as they see it, but are not addicted to the brand cachet and prestige above all else.
These are the sorts of people who may be turned off by the specs of the XV as they were by the fact that the M only offers a crippled version of LiveView.
Interestingly, whenever I and others mention such "issues", we get told that we don't "get it", we don't care about "purity of the experience", or don't understand marketing 101.
Also interestingly I thought Jono's position, in saying "look at the IQ rather than the specs", was actually helping Leica, whereas excessive faboyism clearly hurts it.

 

[fultonpics]

I've loved Leica products ever since I was a kid. This new camera is consistent with what I would expect from them. They decided to go for image quality over speed for the zoom and mounted it on an excellent body. I would jump on it but already bought the RX1 which produces images that are perfect for my needs--professional images for magazines and shows. I miss the Leica feel, but the Sony will allow me to produce a shot in conditions the Leica might find challenging, so a better tool. But, i'm still very tempted to get the Leica and see what I can do with it...plus I want to see this company stay around a bit longer.

 

[edwardkaraa]

I think serious photographers who buy Leica do that for 3 reasons: the glass, analog controls, build quality. Of course add the RF experience for M users. I think the XV fulfills all 3 criteria despite the slow aperture. In fact some Leica's best performing lenses like the 18, 21 and 24 elmars are also very slow.

 

[Shashin]

I think people buy Leicas because they want one. It is no more complicated than that--you may have to find reasons for the CFO, but that is a different story.

 

[edwardkaraa]

I think people buy Leicas because they want one. It is no more complicated than that--you may have to find reasons for the CFO, but that is a different story.

But why they want Leica and not another brand? I hope not because of the red dot or the high prices

The 3 points I mentioned are the reason why all Leica owners I know, and they're all serious photographers, chose to stick with Leica, despite the known shortcomings of the brand.

I personally have used Zeiss Ikon cameras, not Leica, when I shot film. The only reason I shoot the M9 is the lack of alternative. And even though I prefer Zeiss glass and the look it produces more than Leica's, the analog controls and the superb build quality are why I shoot the M9 rather than moving to another system altogether.

 

[Shashin]

No, I am not saying the choice is superficial. I know many brands that have glass, analog controls, and build quality. I bought Mamiya, Horseman, Pentax, Pannon, Wista, and Sony for exactly the same reasons. Well, actually, I bought them because I wanted them over other equally fine cameras from other companies, but they have all the same qualities. If I am being honest, it is because I thought those cameras were "cooler" than the other choices. But working with cameras and tools that inspire me is not superficial.

 

[Vivek]

My recent Leica cam does not have the red dot (or any dot) and also is the cheapest in the market. Rather unique combination. :angel:

 

[Godfrey]

The long-winded debate over this camera is becoming more and more of a snore every day it goes on.

Honestly, if I were gifted with the excess cash on hand, I'd probably buy one just to see what it could do. It might well be suitable for a wide range of what I shoot. The X2 was similarly absurd price on specs compared to competing brands ... but I haven't yet found another camera in the class that matches the image quality it produces, nor provides the excellent shooting experience and control. (Closest so far is the Ricoh GXR with A12 50 or 28 camera units fitted.)

I continue to hope that Leica will make another X body camera, with the same 16Mpixel APS-C sensor, but with an M-mount and focal plane shutter so I can use my existing lenses with it. It would be the modern reincarnation of the Barnak models, to me. In the meanwhile, I'll use the GXR-M or a NEX 6 or an Olympus E-P5 for that role. They're not quite ideal as the control layout isn't quite as nice, but they do well anyway.

I'm off to scan some 6x6 again ...

G

 

[fotografz]

Actually, shashin, there are not only "good" and "other" cameras, presumably "bad". There are also perfectly good cameras that happen not to be competitive in a fast moving marketplace. No doubt the XV is a perfectly good camera, meaning a camera that lets owners take good pictures. No doubt also the haptics and ease of use are very good indeed.
That per se does not make it competitive.
Now Leica fans will tell you that competitveness is not a goal for the company, and that there are people who will buy it strictly for the priviledge of belonging to the Leica owners' club. No doubt there are some people like that.
But there are also many photographers who look at a Leica product on its merits alone, as it suits and pleases them -or not. These people may buy Leica if they find the products competitive, as they see it, but are not addicted to the brand cachet and prestige above all else.
These are the sorts of people who may be turned off by the specs of the XV as they were by the fact that the M only offers a crippled version of LiveView.
Interestingly, whenever I and others mention such "issues", we get told that we don't "get it", we don't care about "purity of the experience", or don't understand marketing 101.
Also interestingly I thought Jono's position, in saying "look at the IQ rather than the specs", was actually helping Leica, whereas excessive faboyism clearly hurts it.

Offering opinions and discussing what a company does, and how they go to market has nothing to do with fanboyism, "owner's clubs", addictions, or any other such thinly veiled personal insult. I also never read anyone telling you that "you don't get it". Perhaps we need to capitalize and enlarge the preface "IMO"?

IMO, Leica has chosen to pursue a specific brand marketing approach, one that is less directly competitive in the traditional sense of the word ... or your interpretation of it. This isn't blue-sky speculation, it is apparent in their retail actions, and how they are now going to market with their various products.

I think that approach doesn't necessarily exclude those who measure Leica products based on merit alone, nor is it likely to win over those who measure using a different competitive criteria ... like those issues you mention such as a slow lens ... or "crippled LV" of the M240, which interestingly I didn't give a care about, but was more critical of the IQ itself ... IQ being the more important criteria.

What it does seem to do is expand the base to more people who were less likely to consider the brand in past, especially in their new retail environments.

IMO, to say, or imply, they aren't doing this is to fly in the face of concrete evidence to the contrary ...

The brand does have prestige and cache, and it is one earned just like most higher-end brands that have lasted long term. That brand heritage halo effect is very apparent in how they decided to market this camera, and who it is aimed at.

BTW, I happen to like the IQ, and said as much. However, I wouldn't go on about it because I've never used the camera ... and deferred to Jono and Sean Reid's posted images as indication of the possibilities.

- Marc

 

[philber]

I don't see how stating that Leica would heve been IMHO better inspired to push the price up and offer a faster zoom contradicts any of the above, Marc. When Jono states that his first reaction was that "he was horrified", it is obvious that, unlike him, some will go no further and not give the camera a try, which might have resulted, had they gone ahead, in more sales.
Had they lowered the psychological hurdle of the "slow zoom spec", Leica could have either satisfied that extra demand and made more money, or chosen not to, and have driven up the delivery time and exclusivity of the product and brand. A win-win choice in my book.

 

[fotografz]

I don't see how stating that Leica would heve been IMHO better inspired to push the price up and offer a faster zoom contradicts any of the above, Marc. When Jono states that his first reaction was that "he was horrified", it is obvious that, unlike him, some will go no further and not give the camera a try, which might have resulted, had they gone ahead, in more sales.
Had they lowered the psychological hurdle of the "slow zoom spec", Leica could have either satisfied that extra demand and made more money, or chosen not to, and have driven up the delivery time and exclusivity of the product and brand. A win-win choice in my book.

Actually, I don't disagree with that at all. A bit faster zoom would have garnered my full attention as I have focused my M kit around the MM for B&W work, and decided to not indulge in the M240. I now do not have a smallish color digital camera. The XV is still not out of the question because of the way I tend to use small digital cameras. Mostly on vacation in sunny places, etc. However, in general, I do not think this is a camera for either one of us. That doesn't mean it isn't for anyone who likes photography and appreciates a well made, fun to use, photographic tool that delivers excellent IQ for most of what they may shoot.

When we discuss prestige or heritage it isn't some johnny-come-lately, mindless fanboy concept ... those brand attributes are earned by the attributes of the products themselves. In this case, build quality (substantial feel, fit and finish, made in Germany); Certain user experiences (i.e., simple analog control); and ... Image quality (as is already being demonstrated by skilled users like Jono and Sean Reid).

IMO, lens speed was sacrificed to maintain IQ because a fast aperture lens that delivers a very high level of IQ expected from Leica optics would have driven the cost quite high. Now, whether it had to be that slow is a question only Leica can answer.

Price range probably was a carefully determined slot with-in the array of products going to retail outlets. I'm sure a great deal of research went into finding the effective retail threshold for a Leica branded product of this type ... plus, we do not know what Leica has planned in their pipe-line of products for future.

IMO, the Leica Red Dot on this camera is no different from the Mercedes Tri-Star on a $35K C Class car. It stands for something of substance ... attributes the brand has come to be known for ... just not all of them.

- Marc

 

[jaapv]

I don't see how stating that Leica would heve been IMHO better inspired to push the price up and offer a faster zoom contradicts any of the above, Marc. When Jono states that his first reaction was that "he was horrified", it is obvious that, unlike him, some will go no further and not give the camera a try, which might have resulted, had they gone ahead, in more sales.
Had they lowered the psychological hurdle of the "slow zoom spec", Leica could have either satisfied that extra demand and made more money, or chosen not to, and have driven up the delivery time and exclusivity of the product and brand. A win-win choice in my book.

The customer would have been even more horrified had they seen the size of that faster zoom.

 

[retow]

The customer would have been even more horrified had they seen the size of that faster zoom.

I have not seen screaming customers fleeing camera stores after having been shown the monstrous Panasonic 12-35mm f2.8 or Fuji 18-55mm f2.8-4 yet.

 

[Paratom]

I also wouldnt mind a faster lens, as long as it was not too much bigger.
On the other side from the first 2 days using the camera as it is in different light situations it is not as limiting as it may sound in the beginning.

 

[fotografz]

I have not seen screaming customers fleeing camera stores after having been shown the monstrous Panasonic 12-35mm f2.8 or Fuji 18-55mm f2.8-4 yet.

Aren't those lenses for smaller sensor cameras?

I wonder how big a f/2.8 zoom for this APSc camera actually would have been ... or a f/2.8-4? The Sony 18-55/3.5-5.6 is huge, and not all that great optically.

Perhaps more importantly, to keep the optical reputation of Leica, how much such a lens would've cost? I wonder if people would pony up $4K+ for a APSc fixed zoom lens camera with those optical specs?

Maybe a f/3.2-5.6 would've sounded better even though not all that different from f/3.5-6.4

- Marc