One is, one isn't.
The 18-55/2.8-4 Fujinon gives a size reference. And it's 'prime' quality.
To compare directly to the Vario, at 46mm it's f/4.
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New Mini M?
- Thread starter pgmj
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To compare directly to the Vario, at 46mm it's f/4.
Wowzer! That X-E1 camera is something else, and so it the lens.
I wonder how the higher ISOs, like 1,600 and 3,200, are?
Does LR 4 support it?
Time to meander over to the Fuji froum and read some reviews
Thanks!
-Marc
Back again, never mind.
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ptomsu
Workshop Member
The Fuji 18-55 is indeed an outstanding lens. Cannot say if better than the Leica XV zoom but for sure faster and more reach. Plus pretty compact.Wowzer! That X-E1 camera is something else, and so it the lens.
I wonder how the higher ISOs, like 1,600 and 3,200, are?
Does LR 4 support it?
Time to meander over to the Fuji froum and read some reviews
Thanks!
-Marc
Back agin, never mind.
And yeas, LR4 and 5 support it, although I prefer Aperture for this.
XV overlayed on XE, showing the slightly larger size of the 18-55
One of my good friends just bought an X100S, and sent me this email last night:
But definitely RTFM - especially if you're new to "rangefinder" style controls, like me. A good example, I had no clue how to switch from Manual exposure to Aperture Priority - went through the electronic menus a half dozen times...nothing...that's an important setting...how could I miss it?
Read the manual to find the A on the lens and shutter speed dial
The Fujis are old school in this regard, with shutter dial on top plate, and aperture ring on the prime lenses (the XV aperture dial is on the top of the camera.)
One of my good friends just bought an X100S, and sent me this email last night:
But definitely RTFM - especially if you're new to "rangefinder" style controls, like me. A good example, I had no clue how to switch from Manual exposure to Aperture Priority - went through the electronic menus a half dozen times...nothing...that's an important setting...how could I miss it?
Read the manual to find the A on the lens and shutter speed dial
peterb
Member
(I’m probably gonna get flamed for all this blasphemy so I’d like to apologize in advance to anyone I offend. This is just an opinion expressed on a wonderfully open forum of discussion and debate.)
When you take the lofty price out of the equation, I, like many, feel the XV is a pretty good camera. After all, it appears to have a very sharp zoom lens coupled with a very good sensor that could offer some very good hi ISO performance (which could make up for the disappointing slowness of the lens) in an equally appropriate and well-constructed body. (The camera weights in at a 1.5 pounds so it's certainly a beefy one, which also supports the quality lens theory.)
I also feel that Leica was probably right in erring on making the lens a little slower to maintain a more compact size while retaining superb optical quality. A smaller lens profile no doubt helps the camera, who’s body it is definitely modeled after, namely it's more traditionally svelte M big brother, from appearing too out of proportion or lop-sided.
The main debate on this thread and others appears to be…just who is this for?
Pro’s and advanced amateurs looking for a good second camera? Nah. They’ve already voiced their opinion. And while many have pointed out the image IQ while certainly Leica worthy (sharp and bokeh-able) while some may, indeed, buy one for themselves, I gather the rest will most likely pass. For they’ve already concluded that the lens, regardless of how sharp and contrast it is, will be still too slow in far too many situations they foresee, which, even with the sensor's potential to make up for the slowness with what appears to be very good high ISO performance may still result in too many blurred shots if a tripod isn’t readily available.
Okay, then, what about the busy albeit ‘knowledgeable’ amateur who knows about shutter speed and aperture relationships who doesn't lurk on websites like these nor has the time or wherewithal to pore over multi-page reviews but is looking for a good, solid camera as Jono suggested? Some may take the plunge. But honestly I'm not so sure about them either. If they DO know about shutter speed and aperture they may conclude after some minimal thought that despite how cool the Leica name is, for $2850 there are other cameras out there (with equally fine names) that you can also minimally fiddle with and aim that will produce equally fine images (if not better) for less. Including the Sony RX1 which I will argue is, indeed, competition considering the price point here since it's an equally viable proposition for someone's money for and offers full frame capability and an almost universally applauded seriously faster, sharper, bona-fide (albeit fixed) Zeiss lens at one of the most popular focal lengths. (Of course, for some, Sony may be out because that is gaudy new money while Leica is classic old money. Flashy, but not refined. Sorta like Tesla vs Bentley.)
For me, there is strong evidence that the camera just may be, as one poster suggested, a wealthy ornament to hang around someone’s neck.
Who you might ask?
A successful specialist physician? Possibly. But they tend to scrutinize equipment. They might get a better piece of camera with better specs. Or hold out for an M.
A wall-street investment banker or successful props trader? Perhaps. When they get their bonus checks they do tend to go on little shopping sprees.
The likes of Kim Kardashian (who could have used the camera in the delivery room last night)? Maybe. But unless the XV came in pink, probably not. (But she may reconsider when the Michael Kors edition comes out.)
Ahhhhh...but how about her ex-husband, basketball star Kris Humphries or her little sister’s husband, Scott?
DING-DING-DING-DING-DING-DING-DING!!!!!!!
Yep. These are the guys I think who are MOSTLY the target for the X Vario: wealthy folks who probably already have a camera like a bulky Nikon DSLR they thought they wanted but have been feeling lately like it’s always hanging like an albatross around their necks who are open to something smaller, lighter and very prestigious. I imagine these guys out and about in NYC’s So-Ho (or wherever Leica boutiques are) popping in and out of the shops when suddenly they see the Leica flag hanging from a building and decide to check it out. Because, it’s something they’ve always been curious about but have never really gone into a B&H or Jessops or whatever. They’ll enter the smallish showroom, take in the Leica Kool Aid while poring over the various models and concluding that the D-Lux 6 is too small (although maybe right for a spouse or GF) and the X2, too limiting (with its fixed lens) and that the ME, M240 and Monochrom are..well..”Hooooo”…a little beyond their photographic needs at the present (although perhaps something to aspire to) they spot the new X Vario. A Leica. A real Leica. And, better yet, a Leica that’s juuuuuuuuuuuust right. Something they may or may not use on every occaision but something that affirms their success in life (to others). Something people will instantly recognize and approve that gives them cred, like their Phillipe Patek watches or Armani Collezioni clothing. Something that will impress their friends and associates on their next encounter when conversation openers arise like “Hey [Kris or Scott]…new camera? “…or (with, perhaps, their more knowledgeable photographic friends), “Wow, [Kris or Scott]! Is that a Leica? Cool!”). The bottom line is having a respectable camera with great OOC jpgs that don't always need further fussing other than deciding what size prints to make them.
My guess is Leica feels there are enough of these types out there to make this camera a reasonable success. After all they’ve got the brand cache that beats all others for a nice addition to any ‘crib’.
For the most part, these guys will set it on “A” and “A” and let the camera do the rest to capture splendidly well-exposed, sharp images on a sunny veranda, the golf course or a lazy afternoon party with friends under a bimini on the yacht they chartered (not realizing that the physics behind smaller apertures and image formation may have more to do with the sharp results than the painstakingly made and assembled glass). When they take the camera indoors they’ll still be happy with when the flash is used (and they’ll dismiss the blurry orange shots when it isn’t).
Will they use Adobe’s Lightroom that comes with it? I don’t think so. While some of these guys MAY dabble in RAW I see them mostly as Apple iPhoto types or maybe even Adobe Photoshop elements types. Just not Lightroom types (at least not initially, even though it comes with it (again I think Leica’s decision to provide this is more to add to the Leica cache than actually be used by the core target. But should photography really grab their soul like so many here and elsewhere at least they'll have one of the best pieces of software ever developed to get the most out of it as painlessly as possible). Although I really suspect these are the types who take SD cards out the camera and bring it into the neighborhood drug store or camera shop for processing.
Yep the X Vario is definitely a piece of bling, albeit highly functional and high quality photographic bling. As for my evidence? I would like to present exhibit A below:
Yes. The X Vario’s leather case. Which, unlike, practically EVERY other case on the planet, has a special, stitched cutout for the Leica name to be seen.
If the X Vario isn't meant for the conspicuous consumption-conscious then who?
When you take the lofty price out of the equation, I, like many, feel the XV is a pretty good camera. After all, it appears to have a very sharp zoom lens coupled with a very good sensor that could offer some very good hi ISO performance (which could make up for the disappointing slowness of the lens) in an equally appropriate and well-constructed body. (The camera weights in at a 1.5 pounds so it's certainly a beefy one, which also supports the quality lens theory.)
I also feel that Leica was probably right in erring on making the lens a little slower to maintain a more compact size while retaining superb optical quality. A smaller lens profile no doubt helps the camera, who’s body it is definitely modeled after, namely it's more traditionally svelte M big brother, from appearing too out of proportion or lop-sided.
The main debate on this thread and others appears to be…just who is this for?
Pro’s and advanced amateurs looking for a good second camera? Nah. They’ve already voiced their opinion. And while many have pointed out the image IQ while certainly Leica worthy (sharp and bokeh-able) while some may, indeed, buy one for themselves, I gather the rest will most likely pass. For they’ve already concluded that the lens, regardless of how sharp and contrast it is, will be still too slow in far too many situations they foresee, which, even with the sensor's potential to make up for the slowness with what appears to be very good high ISO performance may still result in too many blurred shots if a tripod isn’t readily available.
Okay, then, what about the busy albeit ‘knowledgeable’ amateur who knows about shutter speed and aperture relationships who doesn't lurk on websites like these nor has the time or wherewithal to pore over multi-page reviews but is looking for a good, solid camera as Jono suggested? Some may take the plunge. But honestly I'm not so sure about them either. If they DO know about shutter speed and aperture they may conclude after some minimal thought that despite how cool the Leica name is, for $2850 there are other cameras out there (with equally fine names) that you can also minimally fiddle with and aim that will produce equally fine images (if not better) for less. Including the Sony RX1 which I will argue is, indeed, competition considering the price point here since it's an equally viable proposition for someone's money for and offers full frame capability and an almost universally applauded seriously faster, sharper, bona-fide (albeit fixed) Zeiss lens at one of the most popular focal lengths. (Of course, for some, Sony may be out because that is gaudy new money while Leica is classic old money. Flashy, but not refined. Sorta like Tesla vs Bentley.)
For me, there is strong evidence that the camera just may be, as one poster suggested, a wealthy ornament to hang around someone’s neck.
Who you might ask?
A successful specialist physician? Possibly. But they tend to scrutinize equipment. They might get a better piece of camera with better specs. Or hold out for an M.
A wall-street investment banker or successful props trader? Perhaps. When they get their bonus checks they do tend to go on little shopping sprees.
The likes of Kim Kardashian (who could have used the camera in the delivery room last night)? Maybe. But unless the XV came in pink, probably not. (But she may reconsider when the Michael Kors edition comes out.)
Ahhhhh...but how about her ex-husband, basketball star Kris Humphries or her little sister’s husband, Scott?
DING-DING-DING-DING-DING-DING-DING!!!!!!!
Yep. These are the guys I think who are MOSTLY the target for the X Vario: wealthy folks who probably already have a camera like a bulky Nikon DSLR they thought they wanted but have been feeling lately like it’s always hanging like an albatross around their necks who are open to something smaller, lighter and very prestigious. I imagine these guys out and about in NYC’s So-Ho (or wherever Leica boutiques are) popping in and out of the shops when suddenly they see the Leica flag hanging from a building and decide to check it out. Because, it’s something they’ve always been curious about but have never really gone into a B&H or Jessops or whatever. They’ll enter the smallish showroom, take in the Leica Kool Aid while poring over the various models and concluding that the D-Lux 6 is too small (although maybe right for a spouse or GF) and the X2, too limiting (with its fixed lens) and that the ME, M240 and Monochrom are..well..”Hooooo”…a little beyond their photographic needs at the present (although perhaps something to aspire to) they spot the new X Vario. A Leica. A real Leica. And, better yet, a Leica that’s juuuuuuuuuuuust right. Something they may or may not use on every occaision but something that affirms their success in life (to others). Something people will instantly recognize and approve that gives them cred, like their Phillipe Patek watches or Armani Collezioni clothing. Something that will impress their friends and associates on their next encounter when conversation openers arise like “Hey [Kris or Scott]…new camera? “…or (with, perhaps, their more knowledgeable photographic friends), “Wow, [Kris or Scott]! Is that a Leica? Cool!”). The bottom line is having a respectable camera with great OOC jpgs that don't always need further fussing other than deciding what size prints to make them.
My guess is Leica feels there are enough of these types out there to make this camera a reasonable success. After all they’ve got the brand cache that beats all others for a nice addition to any ‘crib’.
For the most part, these guys will set it on “A” and “A” and let the camera do the rest to capture splendidly well-exposed, sharp images on a sunny veranda, the golf course or a lazy afternoon party with friends under a bimini on the yacht they chartered (not realizing that the physics behind smaller apertures and image formation may have more to do with the sharp results than the painstakingly made and assembled glass). When they take the camera indoors they’ll still be happy with when the flash is used (and they’ll dismiss the blurry orange shots when it isn’t).
Will they use Adobe’s Lightroom that comes with it? I don’t think so. While some of these guys MAY dabble in RAW I see them mostly as Apple iPhoto types or maybe even Adobe Photoshop elements types. Just not Lightroom types (at least not initially, even though it comes with it (again I think Leica’s decision to provide this is more to add to the Leica cache than actually be used by the core target. But should photography really grab their soul like so many here and elsewhere at least they'll have one of the best pieces of software ever developed to get the most out of it as painlessly as possible). Although I really suspect these are the types who take SD cards out the camera and bring it into the neighborhood drug store or camera shop for processing.
Yep the X Vario is definitely a piece of bling, albeit highly functional and high quality photographic bling. As for my evidence? I would like to present exhibit A below:
Yes. The X Vario’s leather case. Which, unlike, practically EVERY other case on the planet, has a special, stitched cutout for the Leica name to be seen.
If the X Vario isn't meant for the conspicuous consumption-conscious then who?
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V
Vivek
Guest
Peter, I had no idea that the camera came with such a beautiful leather case. Could be worth a rethink on this camera, for me.
Actually, I rate Leica as best in the world at making great glass that is also fast and compact.So I don't see why their "theoretical" f:2.8-f:4.0 zoom need be any larger than Fuji's for the same size sensor (APS-C). There are other factors we don't know about (how Leica rate the Fuji's IQ, the sensor-to-exit-pupil distance of both cams, etc. ). But, as a general rule, I think, if anyone could do it, it is Leica, and the Fuji is an indication that it was probably doable. It is also clear that even at a higher price it would not have eaten into sales of other Leica cameras, because they are not comparable, and much more expensive.
So it probably boils down to a performance Vs prrice analysis, which kept the speed low and the price from going up higher.
So it probably boils down to a performance Vs prrice analysis, which kept the speed low and the price from going up higher.
Does prime quality mean it shows the same amount of distortion at 18mm like the 18mm Fuji prime does?
Godfrey
Well-known member
The Fuji lens is a few mm longer at 18mm than the XV lens at the XV's maximum extension. It's a few mm greater diameter too. At longer focal lengths, it's substantially longer than the XV lens.XV overlayed on XE, showing the slightly larger size of the 18-55
Handling it at the dealer last Thursday, it seemed somewhat heavy too. They didn't have an XV to compare it to, but I suspect it plus an XE-1 body are a third heavier than the XV, which is rapidly moving to another class of camera.
No matter how I try, I still do not like the feel of the Fuji X cameras anyway. The Oly Pen E-P5 felt a lot nicer. I'd buy that, the Voigtländer 17/0.95, 25/0.95, and use my existing 40mm and up M-bayonet lenses instead.
Godfrey
Well-known member
the fuji lens grew about 1.5-2 inches IIRC when you zoomed to the long end.Just a few grams difference, 628 vs 650, about 3%.
no matter really, tho, as I don't want either the XV or the XE-1. Don't like zooms.
G
Godfrey
Well-known member
Same can be said of many brands. Don't like the Fujis. Why are you trying to sell them in a Leica X Vario thread?The EVF will also add to the size and slightly to the weight. But the zoomed out length doesn't really matter, not like a larger bag is needed.
The nice thing about the X-E is lens variety.
G
Godfrey
Well-known member
The X Vario is a fixed lens camera, not an interchangeable lens camera. That's the huge gulf between them. And the XV does not have a built in EVF, like the XE-1. Comparing to an interchangeable lens camera, the Olympus E-P5 is more similar in features. If you want an interchangeable lens camera, the NEX and Olympus/Panasonic Micro-FourThirds seem far better far as I'm concerned. A NEX 6 or 7 for the built in EVF, an E-P5 for the superb EVF and excellent IBIS system.We know very well you are the anti-sales for Fuji, Godfrey.
If it isn't already obvious by now, the X-E1 is the most similar mirrorless competitor to the XV in most areas...size, weight, user interface (dials), megapixel, sensor size, etc.
If you want a fixed lens camera, the only competition to the XV is a Ricoh GXR fitted with A16 camera unit on size/weight/features/etc. And it's a different kind of beast too, really.
APS-C fixed-mount, zoom lens compacts are pretty scarce.
G
The huge gulf is the price. Whether it's interchangeable or not, the X-E1 available as a kit with the 18-55. Many people enjoy the X-E1 without changing the lens. The other cameras don't have the similar style/design/UI and some of those have smaller sensors. In any case, similar in 'most areas' applies.
Whether it's interchangeable or not, the X-E1 available as a kit with the 18-55. Many people enjoy the X-E1 without changing the lens. The other cameras don't have the similar style/design/UI and some of those have smaller sensors. In any case, similar in 'most areas' applies.
stephengilbert
Active member
You guys could do this by PM.
The comparison posts were worth the effort for a thread were many people can read them, but a PM with G isn't worth the time. If he doesn't like certain gear (specifically Fuji) or any particular comment in a post, he takes it personally and just responds with veiled insults or general boorishness.
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
I have had to come in here 3 times to cool the fire. I'm done its Father's Day and I have had to come in here and waste my ****ing time again . Thread locked and I had to wipe out some posts. Frankly this **** needs to end.
Guy Mancuso
Administrator, Instructor
Im going to open this up again but it comes with a warning. If your going to post a opinion than respect the person that will reply to that opinion. If your not willing to hear a opposing opinion than I suggest you don't post one to start. Part 2 its not about YOU get that through your head, it is about customers that maybe willing to buy this whoever the heck they are. All I read here is Im not going to buy it its beneath me or whatever , great but Leica is not selling to you but customers willing to buy it. I'm not interested in purchasing one but Its not about me and its about others that fill a need. Part 3 Quit being a candy *** and threatening to take your marbles and go home. Thats just flat out being a baby. No one cares and its really sickening to read.
Now I hate to even post this because this is not how i go about my life but you folks forced my hand to write this crap. If it does not interest me I just ignore threads and go somewhere else. But if I have to moderate more whining than I will be the asshole, trust me I'm really good at it when I need to be.
Fair enough. Please debate but I better see some real respect here to others or you will not post here anymore. No one is above the rules and fair warning right now I have a itchy ban button.
Now I hate to even post this because this is not how i go about my life but you folks forced my hand to write this crap. If it does not interest me I just ignore threads and go somewhere else. But if I have to moderate more whining than I will be the asshole, trust me I'm really good at it when I need to be.
Fair enough. Please debate but I better see some real respect here to others or you will not post here anymore. No one is above the rules and fair warning right now I have a itchy ban button.