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M or A7r

Landscapelover

Senior Subscriber Member
If photography is a hobby, it is for pleasure.
Sony A7 (R) is not a rangefinder, therefore, they are different cameras although the A7R may produce more than enough for image quality. The same as the Nikon D800E.
I will certainly keep my M and have ordered the A7R.
I've never had the camera I've enjoyed using as the "M" and my Tech Cams.

Best
Pramote
 

iiiNelson

Well-known member
They're different products for sure but I don't think the differences in being able to get a great shot are as night and day as some suggest. Yes using a rangefinder is different but ultimately I think it's human nature to adapt to different situation (i.e. the learning curve.) As to which is "best" well that's a personal decision that no one can really make for you.

For me I still prefer the M9 to the M240 by a really large margin (in reality the M240 is technically more advanced) but the main benefit of the M240 for me was the possibility to adapt selected R lenses for my limited telephoto work while also allowing me to get rid of my SLR completely. For that duty, the A7/r seems like an infinitely better option as there will be native telephoto lenses and also the ability to adapt M/R lenses (or just about any lens for that matter) is a huge convenience for me. It's less expensive than an M240 and I like what I see from the handful of decent shots on the internet more than some of the stuff I've seen out of the M240 early on. Again these are from JPEG's so who knows how good the shots could be. Now I believe the A7 will be less taxing on lenses than the A7r based on resolution alone but for the ability to print really large (or crop heavily) the A7r is the one I prefer.

All that being said - there's no way I'm giving up my M9-P but I will make room for the A7r (and possibly an A7 as well) in my camera bag. If you HAVE to have a rangefinder then there's only one team playing that game but if you can adapt to EVF, a tiltable screen, AF, and want to hand pick choice lenses based on character from multiple systems then mirror less is worth a try.
 

algrove

Well-known member
Pretty sad post indeed.

Lou, If an A7 or A7R monochrome is available, would you give up your MM?
Hello Vivek

Probably not at first. They probably would not even have to bring out a monochrome A7r or a7 since conversions are so easy today and with SEFEX Pro even my RX-1 images convert beautifully and most cannot tell the image was not shot with the MM. I feel that after working many days with only the MM has often made my color work better as I seem to see colors better than ever.
 
J

JohnW

Guest
It's hard for me to imagine any dedicated M shooter feeling content with the Sony as a replacement system. Regardless of specs, it's just a different experience. I tried it, yet still hang out here in the Leica forum, wistful for my M9.

John
 

sjg284

Member
The new Sony offerings in practical use don't seem substantially different than Fuji and their X series.
Yes Sony is full frame and higher resolution, but the lens lineup is so-so.
Looking at how slowly Sony grew the NEX lens line historically, who knows when they will have the lens offering you may want.

Fuji at least offers a camera with a window finder when you want it, has a fantastic lens lineup of fast primes, and has shown a commitment, I think, to the kind of photographers that like Leicas.

At the moment, this may be yet another strand of spaghetti on the wall for Sony.. we'll see if it sticks. In style, substance, form factor and lens offering.. Fuji has done a great job. How these Sonys perform remains to be seen.

I say this as someone who has sold off my Fuji stuff, reluctantly, as I now have an M240.
 

iiiNelson

Well-known member
The new Sony offerings in practical use don't seem substantially different than Fuji and their X series.
Yes Sony is full frame and higher resolution, but the lens lineup is so-so.
Looking at how slowly Sony grew the NEX lens line historically, who knows when they will have the lens offering you may want.

Fuji at least offers a camera with a window finder when you want it, has a fantastic lens lineup of fast primes, and has shown a commitment, I think, to the kind of photographers that like Leicas.

At the moment, this may be yet another strand of spaghetti on the wall for Sony.. we'll see if it sticks. In style, substance, form factor and lens offering.. Fuji has done a great job. How these Sonys perform remains to be seen.

I say this as someone who has sold off my Fuji stuff, reluctantly, as I now have an M240.
I agree wholeheartedly about your statement about Sony and their "apprehension" to ever build out a complete system before moving to a new "fascination." I think the majority of people interested in the A7/r aren't looking solely for a new system. It seems the majority of the enthusiasts on various forums are looking at it as a "35m FF digital back" to compliment their primary FF systems. I'm sure most are looking closely at the native lenses as well to "cherry pick" the best ones but it seems that logic is to mostly be to fill in the gaps of the main system or for AF benefits.

Perhaps there will be a nice collection of native FE lenses in time as 15 were announced on the roadmap (not including the manual Zeiss lenses announced afterwards or the Rokinon ones.) Time will tell but it's an exciting product at least for those wanting a "35mm FF digital back."
 

Paratom

Well-known member
For me this is a sad post as you will read below.

I echo much of what K-H has recently written. However I am not into Nikon as I have a 5D3 for auto sports work and other fast moving AF work.

I will try the a7r due to its 36MP and like many here want to see which WA RF lenses work. I know what a high MP count can do for DR as I often use an old Hasselblad SWC with a newish P45+ digital back for landscape capture and is all I can say is WOW. It often gives me that old Kodachrome look to digital images where you can almost see the different emulsions on the surface of the print like you could see while "emulsion peeping" with a Kodachrome slide.

More importantly, I will also try the a7r for use with my many R lenses due to the fact that I do not find it tenable to have to switch off my M's while using EVF since it will lockup from over heating if I left on. That's way beyond beta testing as beta testing should come after this serious defect is remedied. It just does not work for me.

Who ever gave approval to final release of this camera, in its current state, should be fired. Since Blackstone's involvement in Leica two products have tarnished the Leica name in my mind-the M240 and the APO50, both of which I own in multiple copies. Perhaps they will correct both products to the satisfaction of most, but Leica it is too little too late. What have they been doing for 3 years while time marches on and competition leap frogs them big time?

Also, even with wide RF lenses I often use the EVF and the same over heating issue arises plus for street if the camera is shut off then the startup time causes me to miss way too many "in the moment" shots for an M model which has its roots with street and journalistic work.

Since I use EVF with R lenses routinely, I say why not see if another (way less expensive) camera with even higher MP performs better than my M's.

While waiting way too long for my first M to arrive I got the RX-1. My first non-Leica for street. Someone on this site helped with the initial setup, which I configured once and have never felt the need to change it again. What a revelation for me to the detriment of Leica.

Thus, already seeing the benefit of AF in a small RX-1 body which never overheats while leaving the EVF on it and having it continually powered up, I can see very little downside in trying out the a7r for my needs. In addition, the a7r continues with the ultra-sonic help for sensor cleaning which Sony incorporated in the small RX-1, all while Leica said they could not do it due the small size of the M240. What a revelation for me to the detriment of Leica.

For me it is sad to see what Leica makes us deal with and I never thought I would think that. My M9P has finally come back from Leica NJ this week under its last warranty visit with a new skin and many interior changes they deemed necessary. I feel that I have moved past my beloved M9P and since I have a beautiful CCD sensor in my P45+, I now feel no need to keep it any longer.

If in the end I migrate to Sony I will keep my Monochrom as I love B&W which harkens back to the days when I began serious photography, nearly 50 years ago. Times have changed over the years, but it still is the photographer who should control the situation and with every modern camera I have found a way to configure them for that to be the case with my 5D3, SWC+P45+, RX-1, M9P and Monochrom, but sadly the M240 takes me a step backward with its current drawbacks where the camera is now too often controlling the situation and not me.
in which way you feel the new M is Controlling the situation and not you (compared to the M9)? I use the new M exact the same way like the M9. I admit that I prefer the M9 color in some way.
 

sisoje

New member
I loved digital Ms since my first M8... With all "lemonade" it came with. I enjoyed as much then, as I enjoy my new M and my M9 now. Using optical RF is different than anything else. Period. M lenses are 100% match for M bodies. Keeping both M9 and M for a long run. Planning getting more of M lenses (it takes time due to substantial cost as we all know...).
Sony? They are coming to the party! No doubt. They will take over eventually... Just as they did with professional video/broadcasting gear. I love my PMW-F3, and use it with great pleasure. But new Sony (highly "disposable") digital cameras don't offer (to me) anything new that I would have to trade my Nikon and Leica for Sony. Sorry...
 

sisoje

New member
Not all, as we also know.
I am not after (few) of those. All my M lenses are great on my M9 and M. It is not a flashy or overly priced set. Just a ideal (for me) kit to use with Leica digital RF. as a full time photographer, I am not in to the "hobby" of changing my gear with every new "summer and winter collection" or after shooting brick walls. I try to have balance between the budget and how profitable (usable) purchase will be AND the "enjoyment factor"...

To illustrate, here is my RF kit:

VC15
ZM21
Leica 35/2.0 asph.
Leica 2.8/2.8 pre asph.
Leica 50/1.4 pre asph.
Leica 75/2.5 Summarit

Planning to:

Leica 90/2.8 Elmarit
Leica Tri-Elmar 16/18/21

I really have no need for any new mirrorless gadget on the market (or soon to be). I enjoy optical RF on my digital Leicas, and if the job requires different kind of tool, I go for my D800 (being that stills or video).
 

algrove

Well-known member
in which way you feel the new M is Controlling the situation and not you (compared to the M9)? I use the new M exact the same way like the M9. I admit that I prefer the M9 color in some way.
My shooting flow with R lenses is interrupted by either the switch off/switch on steps necessary to keep it running without lockup or when lockup occurs due to overheating while using the EVF. This reported all over the internet even with M owners who do not use R lenses.

Furthermore, my shooting flow with WA M lenses where I want framing confirmation by using the EVF is also interrupted due to either lockup or not having the camera on (while using the off/on manual method) when that great shot develops. Never had with the M9 nor with the Monochrom now.

So due to its limitations while using the EVF the M is controlling the situation due to poor electronics or whatever causes it to be unobtrusive to the user where you just shoot and not worry about the camera or camera malfunctions.
 

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
Not a chance I would trade the new M for the Sony A7R . The new M is about continuing the benefits of RF viewing and focusing not at all about becoming a new all purpose mirrorless solution . It does everything better than the M9 except for the CCD verse CMOS look ....the gap is closing but its still not there yet .

I have seen thousands of files taken with Leica R lenses on a D800E and I would call the differences between those files and the new M with Leica M lenses ..too close to call. I do think the new M has slightly better color depth but a skilled post processor could make them look identical .

My second choice is the Nikon DSLR where I use the converted R lenses on two D800E bodies and my long Nikkor telephotos on a D4 .

No doubt the 36MP sensor in a small multipurpose body is attractive ...but there was nothing else that I liked about the A7R ....handling,viewing,focusing ...not close to the Nikon DSLR . Its a nice build quality and appears to be a good solution for many photographers ...it just isn t a great fit for me.
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
By sheer chance, the Sony rep was at the store today when I stopped in to buy "yet-another-G**D**-bag" ... It was with great distaste and annoyance that I realized the E-M1 fitted with the battery grip and ZD 11-22 or Summilux-R 50 lenses simply doesn't fit in any of the bags I currently owned. I hate buying bags. So much promise, so little actual value. Most are crap. The guys at the store understand, and helped. I came away with the ThinkTankPhoto Citywalker 10, which looks like it won't piss me off too much or too soon, and I've now got a way to carry the E-M1 to go shooting with it and more than just a minimal setup.

But I digress. And sorry if I use the E-M1 as a basis of comparison ...

The Sony guy was there with the A7 (and I think the A7r but I didn't bother to hunt that one up after I played with the A7). It's small, it's light. The viewfinder is good (not quite as good as the E-M1, but quite good). The controls are, um, a bit simplistic and clumsy compared to the E-M1. The menus are Sony stuff, which is quite different from Oly stuff. With a 35mm lens on it, it handles ok. The A7 build feels good, not quite the superb tank like feel of the E-M1 but good enough ... I understand the A7r feels better and is more robustly built. The shutter is pretty loud (not quite an Nikon FM2 but close), the responsiveness is good if not up to the Oly standard. The body worked all right with the slightly larger zoom lens on it but I'd want a grip with it for larger, heavier lenses. No image stabilization in the body .. you get used to having that quickly and it is missed when gone.

Of course, I didn't have a Leica-R to Sony E mount adapter to try out my Summilux-R 50 on it, but my feeling is that one of these bodies with a Novoflex adapter would make a good replacement for a Leica R body, keeping the original format. I'd want the grip for anything longer than the 90mm for sure.

I'm happy with what I bought. Maybe in the future I'll nip an A7r body for the R lenses. Maybe.

G
 

glenerrolrd

Workshop Member
OPS I meant to indicate that the D800E example was relevant because ..it too uses a Sony 36Mp sensor . Of course the in camera process would be different ..but a Leica R lens on a D800E gives preview of what you might expect using the same lens on a A7r . Image quality is excellent as I suspect will be the case with the A7R .
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
OPS I meant to indicate that the D800E example was relevant because ..it too uses a Sony 36Mp sensor . Of course the in camera process would be different ..but a Leica R lens on a D800E gives preview of what you might expect using the same lens on a A7r . Image quality is excellent as I suspect will be the case with the A7R .
According to the Sony guy at the store today, the A7r sensor and D800E sensor are completely different sensor families. No idea whether he was just blowing wind.

G
 

Tim

Active member
I've been reading all the threads on the A7/r, right now I am more interested as to who keeps their Sony rather than who orders one.
 

Auni

Member
M or A7R? What is to compare? For me, I can shoot the best glass in the world, simple non-cluttered style of shooting and produce the best images of any 35mm camera-system. What me worry? Nah, you guys chase rainbows (or purple corners), I'm content right here with what I got. Let Sony try and leap-frog Leica image quality and I hope they do, more to look forward to on the new M.
 

iiiNelson

Well-known member
Just like Leica with their vanity S launch ?

……………….. Chris
Nah more like when Leica dropped the R system and created the S. I'd be pissed if I were strictly an R user on some level but the A7/r seems like a better R solution than the M240 is for people that didn't already own a M.

Sorta off topic but the S is a great move for Leica as MF is sort of an open market for the taking in the future provided they introduce more variety in bodies. The lenses are top notch and most don't choose MF for street or candids. Hell I'd buy one if I had a spare $50k burning a hole in my pocket...
 

Chris C

Member
….Sorta off topic but the S is a great move for Leica as MF is sort of an open market for the taking ….. Hell I'd buy one if I had a spare $50k burning a hole in my pocket...
Well, you think so, but I've always thought it regrettable that Leica split it's resources and put its best designer on the S project rather than develop a modernised M platform [for marketing as an alternative to the 'traditional' M line]. Had they done so, maybe this thread would have supplied different answers, and those of us not sworn in as Leica advocates might be thinking not of the Sony A7r, but of a viable, available, Leica alternative.

However, we are where we are, so I for one am looking closely at the A7r, with a view to keeping my M fit lenses, and dumping my Leica. I'm running out of years, and Leica is too slow to change for me, and too damned expensive. And time will tell whether the S line is a dead-end or not, and a strategy which Leica later regrets. When that time comes I suspect I'll be long gone from Leica.

…………… Chris
 
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