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Looking for a perspective from those who used to shoot Leica M and have moved on...

Amin

Active member
I don't know if it's just the endless gear itch or whether I actually have a good reason for considering a switch. Currently I have a Micro Four Thirds kit as well as a Leica kit, but I mostly use the Leicas.

You can get a sense of what I like to shoot from my Flickr stream: Flickriver: Photos from Amin Sabet. Mostly I just take photos of my family and places we go together.

My Leica kit is an M240, Zeiss ZM 18/4, 35mm Summilux ASPH FLE, 50mm Summilux ASPH, and 90mm Summarit. I'm flirting with the idea of selling those to get a Nikon D810, Zeiss ZF2 21/2.8, Sigma 35 ART, Sigma 50 ART, and Nikon 105/2.8 VR.

On the one hand, it's a lot more size and weight. Here's the difference with 50s mounted:


Image source: http://camerasize.com/compact/#389.276,557.399,ha,t

On the other hand, I gain autofocus. Yet even the best AF will sometimes choose an unintended target, whereas my Leica gear (all fairly well corrected and calibrated) pretty much focuses where intended. I also have an element of distrust in Sigma AF that will be hard to shake.

In terms of glass performance, I expect things to be mostly a wash. I can't find any real problem of any importance with my Leica/Zeiss lenses, and I expect the same would be true of the lenses I mentioned for the Leica. Plus I would gain image stabilization with the tele, and macro ability as well.

Neither cost nor megapixels is a major factor in this decision. The superior low light ability of the Nikon is a small bonus to me, not a major one. My M240 has a nasty habit of freezing up every once in a blue moon when I shoot too many frames in quick succession, so performance wise that would be another point in favor of the Nikon.

I know that no one can tell me whether I'd enjoy shooting more with an SLR or a RF. Thing is, I have plenty of experience with both to know that I like both processes very much.

The reason I'm asking here at GetDPI is because there was once a time when it seemed like just about everyone was shooting a Leica, Jack and Guy included, and now the number of Leica shooters is far diminished. So I'm really wanting to get some perspective from those of you who left it behind. Are you happy with the switch? Do you ever miss your Leica?
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
Amin,

I left my digital Leica's (R9DMR and M8) long time ago. I sold all my R lenses as I figured out that there would not be any digital R development past DMR while I kept all my M glass (which is around 12 coded lenses) as I started waiting for a decent FF Leica M without major flaws. I have not found one so far - all still too much flawed IMHO, maybe the new digital MP comes close, but I still will wait for the next major incarnation of the M. But this does not say anything about Leica IQ and overall quality, it just reflects my observations and feelings and I could not be convinced other over the past years.

I was working with EM5 and EM1 over the past years parallel to my Nikon FF system (D800E with several high end Nikkor lenses and the Zeiss 1.4/35 ZF.2, which BTW I absolutely adore - not very often I have seen a better lens). I recently sold all my Olympus gear, as I felt limited by the small sensor and was really attracted by the Fuji X system. Also for me Olympus builds too many "toy" lenses - I owned most of them and while optically good to very good I simply dislike the plastic feel of many.

You will hear many different opinions not only at GetDPI about Fuji, EVF quality, issues with greens etc...I never could figure these flaws. I meanwhile shoot the XT1 with the lovely 18-55, 1.4/23 and the gorgeous 1.2/56. This lens is most of the time on the camera and is one of the best lenses I have ever used. It became my standard lens. Compared to the Nikkor 1.4/85 it is better WRT IQ and has much less CA plus it is much lighter. This lens became my absolute favorite! And I dare to say it tops equivalent Leica glass (or what would fall into its range around 80-90mm).

One reason I bought into Fuji are the Film Simulation Modes, which many seem to hate, but others including me love it. Together with LR5 this allows to exploit the real potential of the Fuji RAW files while offering many perfect presets to start with from Film Simulation. Another reason I bought into Fuji is that I am waiting for the 2.8 zooms which should come this autumn or next spring and the rumored 120-400, which should equal a 180-600 from FF. I intend to use this lens for wildlife, where I currently use my D800E with a 140-400 equivalent lens.

So how does that relate to your question? I intend to get back into the M system with Leica's next M camera which they may introduce in 2 years from now - so I would keep the M system. And meanwhile shoot with Nikon and Fuji in parallel, although I hope I can leave Nikon over the next years as the Fuji lineup becomes more complete for me - so keep the Nikon although much bigger compared to the M and maybe give the Fuji X system a try. Might very well be that you keep 3 systems.

Hope that helps

Peter
 

Double Negative

Not Available
Have you looked into the Fuji X cameras? Specifically, the X-T1?

While I haven't switched, I did pick one up (along with the trio of zooms) to scratch that DSLR itch. Made me realize how done I am with the Canon gear, if nothing else. And does what the M will likely never do (at least without significant expense and with way better usability).
 

Amin

Active member
Thanks, all. I have a fair amount of experience with the Fuji system, Sony E mount, Canon DSLRs, Pentax DSLRs, and MFTs. Right now the only "switch" I would consider is back to Nikon.

This thread has been helpful to me already. It helps to think these things through out loud, and I appreciate the input!
 

emr

Member
Size and weight, weight and size. In the use you describe (and in my use), I would not get a FF DSLR system today, no matter how good it is. Just too much a burden. I myself have a smaller DSLR (Pentax) and an Olympus E-M5 and practically always I end up taking the smaller one with me. A few years ago I spent just one weekend carrying the Pentax with a smallish lens with a wrist strap and ended up having a tennis elbow for a year or two.

EDIT: However, I have never even touched a Leica so this may not be that relevant...
 

k-hawinkler

Well-known member
Amin,

Just seven years ago I started with a Nikon camera, namely a D40, then came a D200, D300, D3, D800E, added a Leica M9, then Sony NEX-5N, NEX-7, A7R, and Olympus E-M5 and E-M1. My son now has the D300 and D3. His family gets a lot more use out of them. I still miss the D3 for its user interface and up to 10 or 11 frames per second.

We still use all the other cameras, mostly with Leica M, R, and even V lenses. Of course, I also have native lenses for AF. The different cameras excel in and are useful for different situations from family shots to landscape, wildlife and sports.

I certainly learned a lot and appreciate the different approaches. There is no single camera that combines the best features.

Lately I have not been using my M9 a lot, but I think the time has come for me to use it again more extensively. I had planned to get the M240, also for my R lenses, but wasn't impressed by the M's electronics and robustness. So the A7R came in handy.

As far as I am concerned, all these cameras can produce satisfactory results and are a joy to use. I just wish more cameras would offer the excellent 5-axis IBIS from Olympus or the equivalent.

In the near future I might add a quadrocopter with camera and the Illum from Lytro. Let's also see what the next photokina brings.
 

Jay Emm

Member
Interesting because I'm considering dropping Nikon D3s for Leica M. I know they are so different I should just keep the Nikon and that I'll miss it the day I sell it - so jury is out (but I do know I want to exit Nikon before the coming collapse - and I'm only half joking about that)

To your question, the 810 is clearly a great camera, but have a think about the computer overhead too. If you do layered edits in Photoshop you're going to get very large files very quickly. It's not an issue if you have ample backup and a well spec'd computer. But it's a factor that I think catches some 800 and 810 owners by surprise.

For family-orientated pics like yours, the advice on the Fuji is well placed, as you'll get superb results with less weight/bulk, but then if considering Fuji vs Leica, I think you'd want to keep Leica? Bottom line though, what's your final use of the photos? If you make prints, the 810 will be phenomenal. If not, it may be overfill for internet type snaps?

Final word, I have found AF on my Nikon's to be first-class. Fast, reliable, a lot to like about it. I have owned the X100 and XPro1 from Fuji and dumped both for the lousy AF capabilities. Granted both were first generation, and I know the XT1 is much much improved, but I am a bit weary with Fuji's AF at the moment.
 

Jack

Sr. Administrator
Staff member
Well, as one who did what you are contemplating about 4 years ago, here was my final synthesis:

I loved the M's, but my aging eyes developed a slight a-stig which did not mesh well with the RF. So I found myself struggling a bit in situations that required rapid focusing -- and invariably I would miss-focus nearly half when I had to work quickly. So I opted for something with decent AF. For me and the way I use my cameras, the current Nikon or Canon AF is more than adequate -- in fact, predictive mode in either system is almost good enough now to be considered psychic. (Okay, maybe not that good, but seriously not far off.) I don't use predictive mode though, generally preferring single AF and the rear AF buttons.

I miss the size of the M, I miss the form, I miss the function -- I miss the way the RF involved me in the image. I also miss the classic look from several of the Mandler lenses I owned -- though my current stable of "look" glass for the Nikon renders similarly enough along with AF that I am very (extremely) satisfied. Not to mention that three of my M lenses netted me enough coin to pay for all of my Nikon glass...

So in short, I miss the M, but not enough to ever return to it. Unless maybe I get some state-of-the-art LASIK's and have a weak sentimental moment ;)
 

jlm

Workshop Member
cost me about the same (well,maybe a little more, and insurance did kick in) to get cataract surgery in me shootin' eye with astigmatic correction as it would have to get a diopter-only correction from leica. made the m fun again
 

docmoore

Subscriber and Workshop Member
Amin,

Fatigue can make some of our decisions seem like a good idea....

To your question....

I took some pics of my daughter and her now husband for an "engagement
photo"...

Leica Monochrom with 75 Summarit vs a Canon 1DX with the 85 1.4 Zeiss ZF.2 and an adapter...


EVERYthing was in focus....

BUT the pictures from the Summarit smokes the Canon....it now resides elsewhere.

And I have a Leica S with a 70 CS lens....

Really if your want everything in focus AF works but the reality for us non-Pros is that we need a few great captures not a bucketload of pretty good captures.

The AF on the new A7s is very good and you can use your M lenses.

For me....Leica/Sigma is a no brainer....if you have already allocated the funds and you will lose a significant amount when you sell or trade them....

The 240 has a Live view...maybe not the best but good enough to overcome the inherent liability of focus-shift.

Bottom line in all of this is whether you see reality as a RF anticipate the moment view or you prefer to see the manipulated view from the camera.

I like the later but prefer the imaging and limitations of the M/S lens....

Take a look here:

PEBBLE PLACE


I must say that I have regretted every sale of Leica equipment....

And that I am a serial re-buyer of the same...oh the shame of it!

Full disclosure...I am 60 ... have used Leica for 30 plus years ... had
astigmatism in my 20's but when I hit it ... it sings.

Tough decision....and everyone has their favorite cola....

Regards,

Bob
 
Amin, you initially invited us (with a link) to take a look at the photos you've been making. I did so and found them quite enjoyable. But they're in no way 'gear-challenging.' None come close to calling forth the capabilities of the cameras you're considering, and none look like you'd want to make large exhibition prints of them.

I don't know why you'd consider such complex systems. Even the Leica is too much to carry just to record these pleasant memories of your family and the places you've been. For these purposes I just slip an X100s into a fanny pouch – and face no issues at all of size or weight. You mentioned you have a micro 4/3 system too, which might the care of everything?
 

ReeRay

Member
I went the other way. After years of lugging around a DSLR I sold it all and bought into an M240. As I don't shoot fast moving subjects AF was a non issue for me but portability was critical. I wanted a camera that I could comfortably take anywhere with me. There are places were the DSLR just doesn't make senses, i.e. dining out, bicycle rides, country walks, trips around the antique quarters, museums, art gallery's etc. who wants to struggle along with the bulk of a DSLR in these venues. This environment is where the compactness of the M system comes into it's own, and you know, I get far more shots simply because I take the M everywhere, which was not the case with the weighty DSLR.

And like others have said, if I need AF, my Fuji X-E1 is available.
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
My advice is "Get off the gear acquisition train."

Despite that I've acquired so much gear, or maybe because of it, my enjoyment of photography is greatly enhanced by no longer thinking about "what is better" or "what should replace what I have now." There's no gear I have that does not do an excellent job already for what it is: my enjoyment is now purely in using whatever I've got to the best of my ability.

I have three M-mount Leicas (CL, M4-2 and M9). I don't shoot with them anywhere near as much as I've been shooting with the Oly E-M1 and Sony A7. Have I moved on? Maybe, maybe not. I have no pressing or immediate need to sell them, I like using them when I do use them. They all make excellent photos.

Carrying anything large and heavy—from any DSLR to the Hasselblad—constitutes a special event for me now. Just don't need it or want to most of the time, and why bother if it doesn't matter? If it matter to you, do it.

Go with whatever makes you happy and nets the results you want. Whether those results are fabulous picture quality, peace of mind that you have the best there is, or whatever: it doesn't matter.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
I think people that chose a M because of size were presented with alternatives that moved them elsewhere ... or like Jack, as eyes aged, focusing a rangefinder became more of a challenge. I almost had to abandon rangefinder work due to vision issues ... but when I had cataracts removed, I had corrective lenses implanted and I was back in business.

Only those that utilize the rangefinder way of making photos tend to stay with M cameras. Questions like yours don't even enter their minds. RF work is a considerably different creative methodology not always fully understood by everyone using a M.

Not that anyone can't enjoy a M and the excellent lenses, but as someone else mentioned, the M may not be the best choice for the type of imagery you seem to do ... as may be the Nikon D800 type camera either, which presents its own set of challenges to spontaneous technique.

In your case, less may actually be more.

- Marc
 

250swb

Member
It is symptomatic of the age that there should be 17 replies and they all embark on putting the gear first and the image second as a way to choose.

As the well known photographer and educator Paul Hill succinctly says "Personal taste and circumstances inevitably affect which method you use to make pictures, but the technology should always be in the service of your ideas and not the other way around"

So this is just an idea, but if it is family pictures you like to make, which camera would best help you to retain the intimacy and spontaneity of family life? Is a large camera body or telephoto likely to help or hinder? Is it only AF you really need? Do you want to get your family involved in your photography and formally record their lives, or only observe them as they do random things?

There are many questions similar to the above you could put to yourself, and the ultimate answer may be anything from buying a new P&S or an 8x10 field camera. There are simple ways to give a vocabulary to putting the image before the gear, for instance look at the way other photographers approach 'the family', from Emmet Gowin or Sally Mann to William Eggleston and many others, then describe for yourself how you would like to take your own images forward and what equipment you need to do it.

Steve
 

retow

Member
FF, good with M-and other non native glass, AF, state of the Art EVF, tilt screen, compact and lightweight, usable as a "general shooter", silent shutter. The A7s ticked all these boxes for me and replaced the A7r. It complements the more specialized M9 nicely.
 

iiiNelson

Well-known member
I just sold my M9-P about 3 months ago after "testing" if the A7& A7r were good enough for me. I considered going the MFT route because there are times where I just need to shoot longer than 90mm reliably. I wasn't willing to give up being able to print extra large so I wanted a 24MP+ sensor (well I ended up with 24MP and 36MP sensors.) That being said I did keep all of my M lenses if that says anything about if I ever plan to return to a M if Leica produces another one that I love as much as the M9 (or MM that I've only tried in store.)

If Autofocus is your concern I would actually consider upgrading the MFT system instead of the M. I know the costs won't balance out but you will definitely gain something in IQ by staying FF everywhere you can. Just my opinion though. If a financial decision is part of the equation then maybe sell your M240 and get a less expensive M if you are really having regrets.
 
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