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nevermind

Paratom

Well-known member
Has anyone else installed the latest firmware in the 006,I upgraded it last night and the lens too and it seems a lot faster,the 120 is far more usable now..

Rob
I have the same impression but only checked out with the 70 so far.
AF hunting has been one of the few points which I did not like about my S and if it is as much improved as I believe than its great.
 

anGy

Member
I've made a little test to check your impressions:
Leica S2 with FW 1.3.0.0 + 120mm CS lens, on tripod.
Lens focus manually turned to min focus distance then start autofocus on my kind's bike 5m away.
Several tests gives an average 4,6sec for acquiring focus.
Same test but with lens focus manually turned to Infinity, average focus acquisition of the 5m distant target: 1,6sec

Then FW update of the S2 to 1.4.0.0 and lens update.
New run of tests, exactly at the same conditions than before updating.

Average acquisition time from min focus distance: 4,1sec (0,5s less) = 11% speed gain.
From infinity to target, it only took an average of 1,1sec (also 0,5s less) to acquire focus = 30% speed gain.

Based on the very nice round up of the new Leica S from David Farkas and his explanation of the new autofocus mechanism, it could be that the S2 also gains in AF speed thanks to avoiding the start-stop-restart of the AF motor, which could explain the same 0,5s gain in speed.

Of course this is just a speculation & 1 test of 1 body & lens on just 1 shooting condition. But this test + some handheld use at poor, rainy light conditions makes me believe the better AF speed after FW update is not just an impression, and that's great.
 

peterv

New member
I too did the update today (S2-P) and though I didn't test as thorough, I have the same impression. Maybe not as fast as the S 006/007 but an improvement nonetheless.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Leica has developed a strong financial bias over the past few years . Prior to the M9 they were very product/production focused . Producing the very best products in the industry ,maintaining their core design,engineering and craft skills in Germany . While they are incredibly proud of their products ..they have bowed to both the financial and supply chain realities .

Video and cinema is a hugely profitable market segment and fits nicely with Leica s cost is not factor if the quality is unique . The retail stores to become financial viable need a lot of stuff to sell beyond the S and M lines . CMOS offers the potential to remain competitive .

Yet at the same time you can see that Leica gets the CCD verse CMOS issue . I ve never wanted much beyond the M9 except a 1 1/2 better high ISO performance . Not sure I need anything better from the s2/s(006) …...
Astute observation Roger.

After waiting to see what would be announced, I just placed my order for a S(006).:)

I'm not interested in much of what the new 007 offers … at least not at that price point. Nothing wrong with it, I just don't need it, and am quite happy with what the S2/S(006) offers for my work.

I wanted to grab a 006 while they can be had new with full warranty because I don't like the color of the new S-E. Black is the new black :ROTFL:

Not sure if I'll keep the S2P, I just had it serviced and it's like a new camera.

- Marc
 
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Paratom

Well-known member
For my use the differences of the new S do not seem to justify the money to go to a S 07.
I am quite happy with the AF improvements of the S06 and thanks to Leica for the FW update.
Still very happy with the handling and the IQ of the S06, even though some say its an "outdated" sensor.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
For my use the differences of the new S do not seem to justify the money to go to a S 07.
I am quite happy with the AF improvements of the S06 and thanks to Leica for the FW update.
Still very happy with the handling and the IQ of the S06, even though some say its an "outdated" sensor.
"Outdated" is a relative term. To this day I regret selling my "outdated" chrome M9P in anticipation of the next-gen M(240).

My new S(006) arrives tomorrow, and I'm off the camera upgrade merry-go-round for the foreseeable future.

Any future investment will go to lenses.

- Marc
 

coz

New member
Congrats on the new S(006).

I'm test driving one in early October. I'm excited to try it out. I'd love to hear your opinion of it compared to the S2 as I might go the used route instead.

Regards
 

peterv

New member
Still very happy with the handling and the IQ of the S06, even though some say its an "outdated" sensor.
Tom, if you get a chance, read the new LFI. They say the M sensor was developed further for the S and so this sensor is quite new.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Tom, if you get a chance, read the new LFI. They say the M sensor was developed further for the S and so this sensor is quite new.
Doesn't that refer to the CMOS sensor in the S(007) as an update of the CMOS sensor in the M(240)?

We are talking about the CCD sensor in the S2/S2P/S(006) … and presumably the CCD in the newly announced M-E … as being considered "obsolete" in some people's opinion.

Or am I mistaken?

Irrespective of that, the fact that a CCD is still available in the newly announced M-E means CCD is not obsolete to Leica and some their customers, therefore will remain in the parts inventory for quite some time … so "obsolete" is a relative term.

- Marc
 

Paratom

Well-known member
Well, the cmobination of the S 06 sensor and the S-lenses leads to very nice files with great midtones and I am quite happy with it.
The only thing which I find interesting how much a CMOS with good high ISO would extend the range where you could use the S to shoot even in low natural light.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Congrats on the new S(006).

I'm test driving one in early October. I'm excited to try it out. I'd love to hear your opinion of it compared to the S2 as I might go the used route instead.

Regards
If you are referring to me and my recently ordered S(006), I get it today (Saturday) by noon.

So, I'll have both cameras side-by-side … S2P and S(006).

One main difference is that most S2s are now out of warranty, and a new S(006) comes with 3 years of warranty.

On the other hand, the fixes I've had to get done after the warranty expired on my S2P was trivial compared to the difference in price between a used S2/S2P and the S(006) even with the current Promo deal. in addition, Leica service completely tuned up my S2P, cleaned the sensor, and replaced the covering when repairing the hot-shoe …. plus updated the SF58 flash I had sent in with the camera.

I'm curious about the differences in the LCD resolution, differences in controls (speed/simplicity), and just what differences there may be in AF speed-accuracy with the new firmware or whether it is minimal and a lot of hype has exaggerated it. I do not expect any difference in IQ.

- Marc
 

coz

New member
But there is a greater iso range of the S006 vs S2 so I thought that iso 100 might be different from S2s iso 160? Enjoy
 

John Black

Active member
ISO 100 on the S-006 is a tiny, tiny bit cleaner than the S2's ISO 160. It's not a huge difference and really not noticeable unless editing an image @ 100% in photoshop.

ISO 1600 borders on useable. This always depends on one's tolerance for noise as well as shooting conditions (like dark shadows vs shooting outdoors in daylight where the ISO was needed to boost shutter speed). Overall, maybe .5 to 1 stop improvement over the S2. My opinion anyways.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
But there is a greater iso range of the S006 vs S2 so I thought that iso 100 might be different from S2s iso 160? Enjoy
Yes, I forgot about that difference.

The S2/S2P goes from ISO 80 (pull) to 1250 with a base of 160. I use 80 mostly for studio work with highly controlled light from strobes to avoid having to stop down to far and creating lens defraction.

I do like the even ISO increments from 100-200-400-800-1600 , where the S2 is 80-160-320-640-1250.

I have the S(006) in hand and am setting it up now.

- Marc
 

anGy

Member
Review of the image taken is 1 of the few weak points of the S2. LCD with low res display + cumbersome zoom & navigation in the image.
The LCD is more than capable for showing framing & histogram of course but accurate sharpness confirmation is not doable.
I guess the S-006 with double the resolution of the LCD + the joystick to make image navigation easier is a nice upgrade in that regard.
 

anGy

Member
Should add that iso seems just a small incremental upgrade - and since FW 1.4.0.0 I'm not sure there is any AF speed & accuracy difference between S2, S-006 & S-E.

(tested the new Leica S-E AF and compared it with my S2 with the same 70mm lens (at the kina Leica boot), no visible difference...)
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Should add that iso seems just a small incremental upgrade - and since FW 1.4.0.0 I'm not sure there is any AF speed & accuracy difference between S2, S-006 & S-E.

(tested the new Leica S-E AF and compared it with my S2 with the same 70mm lens (at the kina Leica boot), no visible difference...)
"Same 70mm lens." … meaning you used your 70mm or theirs? The new AF firmware improvements requires that all S lenses also be updated. So, if it was your S-70mm lens you used to compare, was it updated with the latest firmware? Without a lens firmware upgrade the new SE wouldn't show any improvement over a S(006).

As I understand it, the new SE is just a S(006) with cosmetic changes. Leica makes no claim to it being otherwise different or technically improved. Of course, the production model SE will come with the newly issued firmware touted to improve both AF speed and accuracy. Whether the Photokina SE demo had that installed is a question I'd have.

Anyway,

Initial S(006) user reports who have loaded all the new firmware seems to indicate that it does exactly that … with the S120 being a noticeable improvement.

I'm about to upgrade to that same new firmware on my recently arrived S(006), plus go through the process of upgrading all of my S lens firmware to fully activate the new AF improvements. The S(006) firmware has to be done before the lenses because it also carries the updates for the lenses (which is a separate update function, and has to be done one at a time).

There is also new firmware for my S2P which I will load after all the lenses are updated. This firmware only mentions the addition of the S100/2 lens. However, they also have a separate firmware for S2 users which upgrades each of the S lenses. What is NOT clear is whether updating the lens firmware includes the same AF improvements as found in the S(006) and SE, or if any incremental AF improvements were made. If there are, Leica isn't telling anyone. However, why then issue a separate lens firmware upgrade for S2 users at all? Perhaps just to keep all S lenses current?

Or, (speculatively), perhaps they want to obfuscate any S2 AF improvement because they and their dealers need to sell remaining S(006) stock?:rolleyes::ROTFL:

- Marc
 

anGy

Member
Look at post #22 on this tread.
The test I made on the Leica boot (repeated AF on close than far object) as been made with my S2 and my 70mm CS both updated with new FW. The SE from Leica was using FW 2.4.0.0 and their 70mm CS. Only variable I didn't check was the FW version of the Leica 70 CS.

4 to 5 AF test with 1 system then switch to the other and test on the same close and far targets. Really couldn't remark any speed difference.

After this experience and the speed test I made with my 120mmCS (before and after FW update) I'm pretty certain than AF is upgraded with FW 1.4.0.0.

Could be great if you or other S2 users could also make a quick & dirty AF speed test before and after FW update of its S2 system to confirm this.

I also played with the new 100mm f2 on my S2 body and the AF was slooooow. So slow that if I later decide to buy this lens I'll first ask to test it again.
 
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fotografz

Well-known member
Review of the image taken is 1 of the few weak points of the S2. LCD with low res display + cumbersome zoom & navigation in the image.
The LCD is more than capable for showing framing & histogram of course but accurate sharpness confirmation is not doable.
I guess the S-006 with double the resolution of the LCD + the joystick to make image navigation easier is a nice upgrade in that regard.
Based on my initial use of my new S(006), and extensive use of the S2P, neither one should be relied upon for checking really critical focus. I did some test shots yesterday which when magnified on the LCD and scrolled seemed to look like I was getting a bit of back focus … but when brought into LR showed to be spot on. I think it has something to do with the contrast of different subject matter with-in any given scene.

The H4D/60 I previously owned had doubled it's LCD resolution with a firmware upgrade to the same resolution as the S(006) and ME, and that was not all that reliable of a gauge either.

However you do get to know how to read things in a "relative" manner.

Tethering is the only really accurate way to evaluate critical focus IMO. The actual file checked at 100%.

Just my 2¢ … and probably worth about that much:ROTFL:

- Marc
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Look at post #22 on this tread.
The test I made on the Leica boot (repeated AF on close than far object) as been made with my S2 and my 70mm CS both updated with new FW. The SE from Leica was using FW 2.4.0.0 and their 70mm CS. Only variable I didn't check was the FW version of the Leica 70 CS.

4 to 5 AF test with 1 system then switch to the other and test on the same close and far targets. Really couldn't remark any speed difference.

After this experience and the speed test I made with my 120mmCS (before and after FW update) I'm pretty certain than AF is upgraded with FW 1.4.0.0.

Could be great if you or other S2 users could also make a quick & dirty AF speed test before and after FW update of its S2 system to confirm this.

I also played with the new 100mm f2 on my S2 body (which was not updated for that lens) and the AF was slooooow. So slow that if I later decide to buy this lens I'll first ask to test it with the FW update to make sure it improves its AF speed.
Thanks for that!

Practical user input like this is invaluable as opposed to info coming from those trying to sell us something.

That the camera FW upgrade and lens FW upgrades seem to improve AF is great news for all S2 owners!

That the new 100/2 was so slow is disconcerting given the max aperture. One would assume it'd carry the newer AF firmware. Was it slow on your S2, or did you get a chance to also try it on the S-E?

My Hasselblad 100/2.2 is pretty fast … and it is also a CS lens:)

- Marc
 
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