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I'm buying the Summicron f2 and keeping my 006,lack of long exposure and 6micron pixel's makes this seem a little disappointing..
The S-E seems a nice upgrade path option for the S2 owners.
It offers better iso performance, better lcd screen, better AF, better body (with the joystick), better processor & memory than the S2 and is cheaper than the S-006.
Weighting all those advantages with the cost difference between selling a second hand S2 and buying a new S-E is worth thinking about.
Price is not so bad when you look at the IQ and H5D.. Although the Pentax beats them all hands down if you like the Pentax glass and dont need/want leaf shutters.
Sorry I deleted the main text...I would rather not have it on record. Basically though, if you are confused, my point was that I was not all that pleased by the new S, in relation to my own needs. I suppose the camera is not really targeted at my work, and more at the fashion segment.
Don't get me wrong, I would still like some of the new things in the S...I am looking to incorporate video segments into my art work, and the leveling feature would be useful in the studio for photographing artwork, but overall, I am really surprised the resolution is not increasing. I know resolution is not everything, but I am already maxing out the resolution in my workflow (printing 1x1.5m), and the system is so clearly built for it...it has been 4 or 5 years without a change, and meanwhile 35mm has comparable resolution, and even the low end medium format like the Pentax have gone to 50mp. What is Leica doing with the highest resolution lenses around with the lowest resolution medium format body?
Valid points, Stuart, I guess the new S can not be to everybody's liking. Me, I just hope that my S2-P will hold out untill PK '20 That should give me enough time to save for a new one ...
As for the 37,5 MP - again, I guess they had to make a compromise. Perhaps Cmosis is just not able to provide a signal/noise ratio that is in the ballpark of the Sony sensor everybody else is using, with smaller pixels. In order to come up with a useful high ISO, say 1600-3200, they couldn't make the pixel pitch smaller with Cmosis-tech.
Of course this is all wild speculation, but the fact that Leica went for a Cmosis chip really makes you wonder, is it because they had to sign a contract for a package deal when they needed the custom designed M sensor?
It'll be interesting to see some real world comparisons between the Cmosis and the Sony sensor, who knows?
I suppose the new S Cmos sensor is the M sensor extended to 30X45mm (24 -> 37,5 MP).
So if the electronic part and signal treatment in the S are not that different from the M then the S-007 output should be close to the M, with more resolution. Or am I over simplifying things ?
S-007, his name is Bond...
The 37.5 CMOS sensor is exactly the M-240 sensor with more real-estate, so the S-007 brings M-240 image quality with a larger sensor and the added pixels that go with that area. I think the S-007 will be a great camera - in about three years when they are $10,000 on the used market. Basically, for my needs a S-007 is no more than a super sized Big Mac meal. I've already got the taste and flavor in the M-240, so the S-007 isn't offering enough above the M-240 to justify plunking-down $25,400. Just my $.02 view on it.
I am afraid the new S 007 has just the same but larger CMOSIS sensor compared with the M. I just got the S2 in the used market, and find its image quality such a revelation compared with the M. If the new sensor is just an expanded sensor of the M, then it will be a disappointment. They need to be made better. That being said, I still love the M240, especially its highlight performance is better than any other digital camera that I have used.
Stuart, I think you should express your disappointment.
While I find the S system fits my needs just about to a T, and the S2P I have does most of what I need done these days, there is no reason that the S system cannot accommodate a higher resolution version, especially given the lenses. After all, the more users of the system, the more versatile and long term it becomes.
I used to work with two Hasselblads … a 1.3X 40 meg and a FF 60 meg. Two different applications/usage/disciplines that I really never mixed up very much. The S2P replaced the 40 meg H, and I no longer needed the 60 meg H4D after semi-retiring.
I think Leica are taking baby steps in expanding into CMOS sensors … so it may take awhile before we see a smaller pixel higher res S camera.
Frankly, what we all agree on are the S optics … which could've easily accommodated a cut down version of the 80 meg 645 sensor … seems like they could have done it now IF it was a Dalsa CCD.
IMO that is what the S-E should have been, with the S 007 being the foray into CMOS.
I'm crappy at math, so I wonder what resolution the Leica sensor size would produce out of a 80 meg 645?
Over-all, I'm happy to see the S-E as it is because it means the current S2/S-006 sensor and related parts remains in production, so I can keep shooting with the camera I like.
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The pixel pitch of an IQ180 on a 30x45mm sensor would give a 50MP resolution sensor.
Would be so nice to have an S-008 50MP Dalsa sensor Leica S, indeed.
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I wonder if Leica would continue to offer at least two versions of the S,maybe next time they could have one aimed at handheld work with 37.5mp and a High res sensor like the Dalsa with its 5.2um pixels or even D810 sized pixels of 4.88um for Landscape etc.
But as I said, I am quite disappointed with the route they went with this. I assumed they were going to go with CMOS (which I am very wary of, and said as much when I was there), but I assumed that would mean that it would allow them to advance in every major area of the camera...resolution, ISO, speed, long exposure time, live view etc. As it is, it seems like they have put features ahead of image quality, which is just about the only thing you can usually count on Leica NOT to do! That they are doing this on their flagship super-camera really surprises and disappoints me.
Now had Leica done that, (50 meg Dalsa), I probably would have had to refigure my financials to get one. I've work with the Leaf 33 meg and Hasselbald 60meg Dalsa sensors and loved the rendering … would very much liked to have seen how the S lenses rendered using Dalsa capture.
Moot point I suppose.
Leica has developed a strong financial bias over the past few years . Prior to the M9 they were very product/production focused . Producing the very best products in the industry ,maintaining their core design,engineering and craft skills in Germany . While they are incredibly proud of their products ..they have bowed to both the financial and supply chain realities .
Video and cinema is a hugely profitable market segment and fits nicely with Leica s cost is not factor if the quality is unique . The retail stores to become financial viable need a lot of stuff to sell beyond the S and M lines . CMOS offers the potential to remain competitive .
Yet at the same time you can see that Leica gets the CCD verse CMOS issue . I ve never wanted much beyond the M9 except a 1 1/2 better high ISO performance . Not sure I need anything better from the s2/s(006) …...
Has anyone else installed the latest firmware in the 006,I upgraded it last night and the lens too and it seems a lot faster,the 120 is far more usable now..
Just installed the new firmware for the S2, and tested autofocus on 120CS and 180mm. I have to judge by memory only, but it seems faster and more precise. Maybe a little noisier, too? When focus changes are big, it seems to go brrrrr-br, with a short fine correction after a very brief pause. Only one incident of hunting (to macro) on the 120CS, otherwise precise and fast.
Curious to hear impressions from other users, would be very happy if AF is improved also on the S2, or am I just dreaming?
Doug Herr http://www.wildlightphoto.com
I've made a little test to check your impressions:
Leica S2 with FW 126.96.36.199 + 120mm CS lens, on tripod.
Lens focus manually turned to min focus distance then start autofocus on my kind's bike 5m away.
Several tests gives an average 4,6sec for acquiring focus.
Same test but with lens focus manually turned to Infinity, average focus acquisition of the 5m distant target: 1,6sec
Then FW update of the S2 to 188.8.131.52 and lens update.
New run of tests, exactly at the same conditions than before updating.
Average acquisition time from min focus distance: 4,1sec (0,5s less) = 11% speed gain.
From infinity to target, it only took an average of 1,1sec (also 0,5s less) to acquire focus = 30% speed gain.
Based on the very nice round up of the new Leica S from David Farkas and his explanation of the new autofocus mechanism, it could be that the S2 also gains in AF speed thanks to avoiding the start-stop-restart of the AF motor, which could explain the same 0,5s gain in speed.
Of course this is just a speculation & 1 test of 1 body & lens on just 1 shooting condition. But this test + some handheld use at poor, rainy light conditions makes me believe the better AF speed after FW update is not just an impression, and that's great.
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I too did the update today (S2-P) and though I didn't test as thorough, I have the same impression. Maybe not as fast as the S 006/007 but an improvement nonetheless.
After waiting to see what would be announced, I just placed my order for a S(006).
I'm not interested in much of what the new 007 offers … at least not at that price point. Nothing wrong with it, I just don't need it, and am quite happy with what the S2/S(006) offers for my work.
I wanted to grab a 006 while they can be had new with full warranty because I don't like the color of the new S-E. Black is the new black
Not sure if I'll keep the S2P, I just had it serviced and it's like a new camera.
Last edited by fotografz; 19th September 2014 at 13:16.
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For my use the differences of the new S do not seem to justify the money to go to a S 07.
I am quite happy with the AF improvements of the S06 and thanks to Leica for the FW update.
Still very happy with the handling and the IQ of the S06, even though some say its an "outdated" sensor.
My new S(006) arrives tomorrow, and I'm off the camera upgrade merry-go-round for the foreseeable future.
Any future investment will go to lenses.
Congrats on the new S(006).
I'm test driving one in early October. I'm excited to try it out. I'd love to hear your opinion of it compared to the S2 as I might go the used route instead.
We are talking about the CCD sensor in the S2/S2P/S(006) … and presumably the CCD in the newly announced M-E … as being considered "obsolete" in some people's opinion.
Or am I mistaken?
Irrespective of that, the fact that a CCD is still available in the newly announced M-E means CCD is not obsolete to Leica and some their customers, therefore will remain in the parts inventory for quite some time … so "obsolete" is a relative term.
Well, the cmobination of the S 06 sensor and the S-lenses leads to very nice files with great midtones and I am quite happy with it.
The only thing which I find interesting how much a CMOS with good high ISO would extend the range where you could use the S to shoot even in low natural light.
So, I'll have both cameras side-by-side … S2P and S(006).
One main difference is that most S2s are now out of warranty, and a new S(006) comes with 3 years of warranty.
On the other hand, the fixes I've had to get done after the warranty expired on my S2P was trivial compared to the difference in price between a used S2/S2P and the S(006) even with the current Promo deal. in addition, Leica service completely tuned up my S2P, cleaned the sensor, and replaced the covering when repairing the hot-shoe …. plus updated the SF58 flash I had sent in with the camera.
I'm curious about the differences in the LCD resolution, differences in controls (speed/simplicity), and just what differences there may be in AF speed-accuracy with the new firmware or whether it is minimal and a lot of hype has exaggerated it. I do not expect any difference in IQ.
But there is a greater iso range of the S006 vs S2 so I thought that iso 100 might be different from S2s iso 160? Enjoy
ISO 100 on the S-006 is a tiny, tiny bit cleaner than the S2's ISO 160. It's not a huge difference and really not noticeable unless editing an image @ 100% in photoshop.
ISO 1600 borders on useable. This always depends on one's tolerance for noise as well as shooting conditions (like dark shadows vs shooting outdoors in daylight where the ISO was needed to boost shutter speed). Overall, maybe .5 to 1 stop improvement over the S2. My opinion anyways.
The S2/S2P goes from ISO 80 (pull) to 1250 with a base of 160. I use 80 mostly for studio work with highly controlled light from strobes to avoid having to stop down to far and creating lens defraction.
I do like the even ISO increments from 100-200-400-800-1600 , where the S2 is 80-160-320-640-1250.
I have the S(006) in hand and am setting it up now.
Review of the image taken is 1 of the few weak points of the S2. LCD with low res display + cumbersome zoom & navigation in the image.
The LCD is more than capable for showing framing & histogram of course but accurate sharpness confirmation is not doable.
I guess the S-006 with double the resolution of the LCD + the joystick to make image navigation easier is a nice upgrade in that regard.
Should add that iso seems just a small incremental upgrade - and since FW 184.108.40.206 I'm not sure there is any AF speed & accuracy difference between S2, S-006 & S-E.
(tested the new Leica S-E AF and compared it with my S2 with the same 70mm lens (at the kina Leica boot), no visible difference...)
As I understand it, the new SE is just a S(006) with cosmetic changes. Leica makes no claim to it being otherwise different or technically improved. Of course, the production model SE will come with the newly issued firmware touted to improve both AF speed and accuracy. Whether the Photokina SE demo had that installed is a question I'd have.
Initial S(006) user reports who have loaded all the new firmware seems to indicate that it does exactly that … with the S120 being a noticeable improvement.
I'm about to upgrade to that same new firmware on my recently arrived S(006), plus go through the process of upgrading all of my S lens firmware to fully activate the new AF improvements. The S(006) firmware has to be done before the lenses because it also carries the updates for the lenses (which is a separate update function, and has to be done one at a time).
There is also new firmware for my S2P which I will load after all the lenses are updated. This firmware only mentions the addition of the S100/2 lens. However, they also have a separate firmware for S2 users which upgrades each of the S lenses. What is NOT clear is whether updating the lens firmware includes the same AF improvements as found in the S(006) and SE, or if any incremental AF improvements were made. If there are, Leica isn't telling anyone. However, why then issue a separate lens firmware upgrade for S2 users at all? Perhaps just to keep all S lenses current?
Or, (speculatively), perhaps they want to obfuscate any S2 AF improvement because they and their dealers need to sell remaining S(006) stock?
Look at post #22 on this tread.
The test I made on the Leica boot (repeated AF on close than far object) as been made with my S2 and my 70mm CS both updated with new FW. The SE from Leica was using FW 220.127.116.11 and their 70mm CS. Only variable I didn't check was the FW version of the Leica 70 CS.
4 to 5 AF test with 1 system then switch to the other and test on the same close and far targets. Really couldn't remark any speed difference.
After this experience and the speed test I made with my 120mmCS (before and after FW update) I'm pretty certain than AF is upgraded with FW 18.104.22.168.
Could be great if you or other S2 users could also make a quick & dirty AF speed test before and after FW update of its S2 system to confirm this.
I also played with the new 100mm f2 on my S2 body and the AF was slooooow. So slow that if I later decide to buy this lens I'll first ask to test it again.
Last edited by anGy; 21st September 2014 at 01:56.
The H4D/60 I previously owned had doubled it's LCD resolution with a firmware upgrade to the same resolution as the S(006) and ME, and that was not all that reliable of a gauge either.
However you do get to know how to read things in a "relative" manner.
Tethering is the only really accurate way to evaluate critical focus IMO. The actual file checked at 100%.
Just my 2¢ … and probably worth about that much
Practical user input like this is invaluable as opposed to info coming from those trying to sell us something.
That the camera FW upgrade and lens FW upgrades seem to improve AF is great news for all S2 owners!
That the new 100/2 was so slow is disconcerting given the max aperture. One would assume it'd carry the newer AF firmware. Was it slow on your S2, or did you get a chance to also try it on the S-E?
My Hasselblad 100/2.2 is pretty fast … and it is also a CS lens
It would be stupid to draw any conclusions based on that 2 minutes test but the 100mm AF speed is something I would definitively check (with a S2) before a buying decision. Like you said having a slow AF on a F2 lens would be a non sense.
I've been using a friends S2 for a week or so and after the D800E the viewfinder is incredible, I've moved from viewing the image at 100% to check focus to not really bothering at all, the focusing screen is so good I feel confident I have it right without bothering to check, that's with a 70cs as well as a selection of Pentax 67 lenses on the Leica adapter, which were really impressive by the way.
I'm going to get an S if i can afford to do it properly with a couple of lenses, it's nice to feel that I don't have to bother checking so much on the rear screen so I'm not too fussed about the resolution, it's handy for checking composition as much as anything.
There's a S kit with the new 100 being advertised locally but the price is a bit scary so I may look at the Hasselblad as Marc says it focusses so well, this camera will be used mainly for studio portraits with strobes.
It's great that the new cameras will make the older cameras more "affordable" if that's the right word!
I just did all the FW updates on both cameras S(006) and S2P.
After I updated all the lens FW on the S(006), I checked the FW number against the ones listed in the S2 lens FW updates, and they are the same.
So, I then updated the S2P's FW, and then tested the AF of my CS120 in the low tungsten ambient light of my studio area at 5AM (a real-world AF acid test I am very familiar with), and it was like night and day so to speak.
Much faster in acquiring focus, and even when I tried to trick it, it hunted very little before nailing it. I noted a huge difference right away … the few times it did hunt it was little incremental moves … NOT the huge move from one extreme to another … which was the frustrating thing about this lens given the long throw of a Macro
The CS120 was really the only lens that obviously was snail slow focusing and hunted a lot in low light … so if it's this much better, then all the other lenses should be amazing.
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Great news for each and every Leica S user
The Hasselblad HC100/2.2 is a good alternative IF you can find a used S to H adapter to avoid the steep tariff of a new one from Leica. Using the S2 CS mode sync speeds up to 1/750 are available when hard wired to a pack or when using a radio transmitter that allows higher sync speeds like the Profoto AIR. Otherwise it'll be 1/500th which is still a lot better than 1/125 of the S FP focal plane shutter mode.
If you are looking for a S2, keep an eye on the F/S section here on GetDpi … my S2P may appear there soon
Marc, if I may ask...
If the AF speed & accuracy is more or less (or completely ?) the same between S2 FW updated and S-006, if the better S-006 LCD is still not good enough for checking critical focus and if the iso difference between both bodies is just an incremental upgrade, what are the motivations left for upgrading from S2 to S-006 ?
I am considering upgrading too but am a little bit confused / perplexe right now.
If the warranty is a concern maybe a new Leica protection plan for the S2 could be a good answer (for those who can still apply for it, which is my case) ?
I don't know if the other upgraded specs of the S-006 are worth it neither ? (GPS, quicker image processor, and others I can't remember) ?
Also good to know because I have some Profoto D42400R generators with Pocketwizard receivers. I wonder if they are backwards compatible and allow the higher sync speed of the Plus-IIIs? I would think it would since I believe it is the transmitter that determines that, with the receiver just doing what it is told
This gets better and better
The S(006) LCD is better, but I still wouldn't trust it for critical focus … not for some of the stuff I do. Frankly, I never much gave the LCD a second thought … when in studio, or on commercial location, I shoot tethered, and for most other work, I'm simply working to fast to stop and check the focus. Like someone else mentioned, I pretty much trust that big bright viewfinder, and just glance at the LCD to check facial expressions and composition (and of course to catch any exposure blunder) However, I understand that others have their own way of working and their own needs.
When the S(006) first came out, I didn't think it was worth the difference in price at all. So, I waited because I've learned from my Hasselblad MFD days that all good things come to those who wait.
A new S(006) warranty was definitely a part of this recent decision … three years with a loaner if the camera goes down. Plus the Promo pricing and a dealer loyalty discount from my "Leica Pusher" of over 20 years.
However, no matter how you slice it, it's roughly 2X the price of a nice S2 … or in my case a S2P with the better LCD glass. BTW, I liked the initial menu interface of the S2 over the S(006), and while the joy stick does add some functionality, I liked using the smooth round AE/L button on the rear of the S2 better for AF activation. That opinion may change once I get more familiar with the S(006).
My main motivation is that I want to preserve my current S shooting experience and aesthetic as long as possible. For me that means CCD and all CS glass. Since I do not like the cosmetic look of the S-E, that meant a S(006) which I hope serves me for the next 10 years. I saw it as a small window of opportunity before they are gone as new.
Frankly, depending on your own POV and any possibility of moving to a CMOS S or higher resolution S on down the road, I would exercise your option to extend the warranty on your S2 and put any remaining funds into lenses. $7.5K will buy a nice lens … unless you already own all of them If you do not have the CS45/2.8, I HIGHLY recommend it … it'll make more difference than a new camera IMO.
Personally, I already have five Leica CS lenses plus my HC100/2.2 … and was a bit bummed that the 24mm nor the new 100/2 were going to be a CS lens. I may eventually get the zoom for a walk-about "Florida" kit, but that is a low priority right now.
Thank you for that comprehensive answer :thumb up:
Regarding LCD use for focus confirmation:
That's right, the OVF is so nice that it gives good confidence about focus accuracy. Unfortunately it's getting difficult for my eyes to use this OVF with accuracy for landscape shots with wide lenses (45mm and wider) hence my need for checking focus afterwards.
Regarding the S-E design:
I've seen a lot of people bashing the M-E look but I find it nice personally. It's better looking live than on picture I think. But when I saw the S-E at Kina it was a bit of a chock, not elegant design at all.
Regarding the 45mm:
I also have it, for a month only. It is backfocusing on my body so I cannot fully enjoy it for the moment (and Leica wants the lens + the body back for calibration...). Already seen however that when a shot is in focus it's laser sharp and my standard Lightroom sharpness settings must be reduced !
Regarding high speed sync:
Here's the link to the complete info from Capture Integration site:
Thank you again Marc for your feedback. I think I'll go the customer protection plan route and also buy a microprism for the OVF. It will be more than good enough for me.