Leica 007 and Canon 5ds/5dsr ETC thoughts

[bab]

Used S2's are 7500.00 and really only good for bright light or studio light so it would make sense to purchase a (007) if one were going to use the leica lens system in other lighting situations!
Not willing to spend 25k for a new leica s means waiting at least a year from now for the used price to be 12-15k. If no other choice was available purchasing a new Leica s007 is a no brainier, if a new leica was $12k it's a no brainer. How could a 12k leica S007 body not sell more leica glass and put leica in more photographers hands thus creating more revenue?
That being said I believe at least 3-4 camera manufactures will by 2016 - 2017 release new equipment that will make this conversation meaningless.

 

[Paratom]

Used S2's are 7500.00 and really only good for bright light or studio light so it would make sense to purchase a (007) if one were going to use the leica lens system in other lighting situations!
Not willing to spend 25k for a new leica s means waiting at least a year from now for the used price to be 12-15k. If no other choice was available purchasing a new Leica s007 is a no brainier, if a new leica was $12k it's a no brainer. How could a 12k leica S007 body not sell more leica glass and put leica in more photographers hands thus creating more revenue?
That being said I believe at least 3-4 camera manufactures will by 2016 - 2017 release new equipment that will make this conversation meaningless.

First of all I can say from my experience that S2 is not only good for studio or bright light. For sure its not a low light camera but you can do more things with it than you might believe. The mirror is very well damped and even though DR goes down and there will be noise ISO640 can produce very nice images and good color as well. An important part are also the lenses which are very good even wide open, and fast, and not much vignetting which needs to be corrected.

Regarding "dated" cameras...maybe yes if calulated DR numbers and things like that are your criteria. If you just take images and look on them the story can look different.
For me important factors are also:
Lenses
-How accurate can you focus in AF (the S is very good here, not fast but -accurate due to the information on its chip no need for hours of AF-fine tuning like many other DSLRs)
-viewfinder - how good can you see the subject; ist it good to check focus? Is it possible to use it reliable for manual focus?
-user interface
-handling
-IQ (visual - not only in numbers and measurements)

I think the best thing is to demo a camera, use it and look at the images. Everything else is a lot of theory but doesnt necessarily lead you to the right decision.

 

[aDam007]

Used S2's are 7500.00 and really only good for bright light or studio light so it would make sense to purchase a (007) if one were going to use the leica lens system in other lighting situations!
Not willing to spend 25k for a new leica s means waiting at least a year from now for the used price to be 12-15k. If no other choice was available purchasing a new Leica s007 is a no brainier, if a new leica was $12k it's a no brainer. How could a 12k leica S007 body not sell more leica glass and put leica in more photographers hands thus creating more revenue?
That being said I believe at least 3-4 camera manufactures will by 2016 - 2017 release new equipment that will make this conversation meaningless.

What I will say is this, and I've said it before.

The Leica S is a good system. Good enough that they don't need to put a luxury price tag on it. You're absolutely right when you say they should have a lower priced body. If it were relatively competitive at around 10k-12k for the body, and the lenses were priced the same as they are now. They'd have a lot more lens sales. A reasonably priced body builds confidence in the brand. And with bodies needing the be replaced more often, it's better to build a large user base with the lure of cheaper bodies, then to try and sell expensive outdated units to the few.

Who knows, maybe the new CEO will do things differently.

 

[aDam007]

First of all I can say from my experience that S2 is not only good for studio or bright light. For sure its not a low light camera but you can do more things with it than you might believe. The mirror is very well damped and even though DR goes down and there will be noise ISO640 can produce very nice images and good color as well. An important part are also the lenses which are very good even wide open, and fast, and not much vignetting which needs to be corrected.

Regarding "dated" cameras...maybe yes if calulated DR numbers and things like that are your criteria. If you just take images and look on them the story can look different.
For me important factors are also:
Lenses
-How accurate can you focus in AF (the S is very good here, not fast but -accurate due to the information on its chip no need for hours of AF-fine tuning like many other DSLRs)
-viewfinder - how good can you see the subject; ist it good to check focus? Is it possible to use it reliable for manual focus?
-user interface
-handling
-IQ (visual - not only in numbers and measurements)

I think the best thing is to demo a camera, use it and look at the images. Everything else is a lot of theory but doesnt necessarily lead you to the right decision.

Also agree with this.. The camera isn't "dated" I find that the images I get from the S are beautiful. I think slightly faster AF and better high ISO would be welcome. But honestly the AF and ISO now aren't crippling by any means.

BAB had a really good point though about the price of the body... Doesn't inspire confidence when you look at the numbers and then see the shockingly high price.

 

[Rolo]

"A lower priced body" would result in a bigger loss on bodies. Maybe a corresponding increase in lens sales would produce a profit.

I want a 24mm S lens, but arrrrghhh !

 

[fotografz]

I'm going to go at this from a bit different perspective.

Based on a lot of experience in creative endeavors, including making photographs for a wide range of clients, and doing that for over 40 years, there is a lot to be said about what sparks self-confidence in your work and what doesn't. Over time I've observed that personal creative satisfaction is a huge component in building one's confidence in the results one produces.

While clients, or casual viewers (and even other photographers) may not be able to tell the difference between one technical solution verses another, what counts more ... is whether you do, or even just think you do! If you aren't convinced, it can undermine both the "joy of doing", and "faith in the results". Nothing succeeds like success!

If there is a debatable area technically, there is rarely a grey area regarding an instinctive response to a photographer that is confident in presenting themselves, their work, and they way they solve problems.

The tools used are the domain of the creative person ... clients, buyers of your photography, or the "interested" public at large, do not care what tools are used, they are results oriented ... and part of that reaction is projected by how confident one is in those results, and that the results back up that confidence.

I've found this to be true in every creative field I've been exposed to ... advertising, design, music, painting/fine art, and photography ... both as a buyer of creative work, and a producer of creative work. One common element for success in every field was the unshakable confidence on the part of the creative person. It is something you can feel from both the person and the work.

That is why one responder here can confidently say they use a Leica Rangefinder for 99% of their client work. Their success with the M builds the confidence to stick with it and flourish ... even though a rangefinder is a limited system in the eyes of many others.

What my friend Irakly Shanidze produces with an "outdated" M9 is extraordinary, and his confidence in the tool and its use is apparent in the results. Even though I do not do work like Stuart Richardson, I greatly admire his quiet confidence and the sublime feelings he manages to evoke with his Leica S photographs.

IMHO:

Personally, I have creative confidence in some of my current photographic tools, and have come to understand both the strengths and limitations of each one as they relate directly to MY creative needs, level of skill, and any talent I may have ... not anyone else's.

I'm only interested in preserving those strengths and building on using them more and more effectively ... and am not willing to let go of those strengths, if they are undermined by the next iteration of that specific tool. So, I'm not particularly "concerned" by what may come since I'm both confident in my current selections, and the the level of success I've managed to achieve with them. I change cameras when my needs change, not because some new wonder cam hits the market.

Currently I use a S(006), mostly as a vessel to hold the CS and S lenses I find unique and satisfying. The limitations of this camera are of little concern to me since I don't need ISO 3200 to shoot with strobes, nor have I ever hit the buffer limit. I use lighting because low light is far to often ugly light ... even with color digital cameras that can shoot at astoundingly high ISOs, I rarely if ever go there for the same reason.

However, I also use the S to shoot available light at weddings and for portraits all the time ... IF the available light is beautiful. The S camera can do more than what most think it can ... but it takes practice and perseverance to develop the skills and techniques required ... which takes a little time, something that seems to be missing in our throw-away, jump from one-kit-to-another, market hype driven world.

Another favorite is my Leica M Monochrome Rangefinder ... always used for available light candid works where color temp issues of the low available light are non-existent. The M has been a continuous tool for me during the entire 40+ year span I've been making photographs. 99% of those images were B&W, so the MM was a natural choice.

The third tool is my iPhone 6 ... which I take with when shooting the MM to text no-brainer color snaps to friends and family since that stuff is "here today, gone today". I used to shoot those pics with a "real" camera which was just a big PITA to let people see quickly ... and they couldn't care less what was used anyway.

I have a Sony A99 and A7R system (and Nikon kit before that, and Canon system before that) that I never have had a whisper of attachment to, or care for, but they DID get the job done for some wedding work ... which I am retiring from this summer and will probably sell it all off since I rarely use any of it for any work I actually WANT to do.

- Marc

BTW, I have never sweated carrying lighting or a larger camera like an Pro Canon/Nikon or Hasselblad H/Leica S for 8 to 10 hours. That's why God made assistants and/or roller bags. It kills me when someone complains that it cost $100 to hire an assistant, while they use their $25,000 camera and bag of $7K-8K lenses

 

[Scott Tansey]

I have been using the Leica S2 since 2010, and I have been using it as my exclusive camera since 2011. I use it for my artistic work, family photographs and other tasks. Last week I shot my daughter's high school lacrosse games a couple of times. Although not every shot was a keeper, a high percentage were. One area that the 007 will help with such assignments is it will have a new autofocus system that will be better for the continuous autofocus system. Also be aware that the 007 might not be available until the 3rd quarter.

Scott

 

[peterv]

"A lower priced body" would result in a bigger loss on bodies. Maybe a corresponding increase in lens sales would produce a profit.

I want a 24mm S lens, but arrrrghhh !

Hi Gary, I got the 24mm two weeks ago and I can tell you it's a fantastic lens. I'm not particularly a wide angle type of photographer, but the oppertunaty was there and I thought it might be interesting to go 'all out wide' and see what I get. My first S lenses were the 70 and the 120 because those angles are closest to how I see the world around me, and I need those focal lenghts most for my type of images.

I can say that to me, the 24 is everything I've come te expect from an S lens. Nice color and contrast and - need I say - it's sharp, sharp, sharp. My expectations for the bokeh this lens delivers were not high, because of the wide angle and it being an f3.5, but I'm actually positively surprised by the background defocus possibilities. At wide open, at medium focus distances, the centre to 2/3 way out is already very sharp and the corners get softer, but not harsh or busy looking.

At f8 - f11 the corners are nicely sharp and it's a great landscape lens because of that. I plan to also use it for reportage because with the 24mm, like the 70 and 120 that need 2x FL shutterspeed, I've found I can do quite well with 1/60. Wide open at 640-800 ISO, this gets me close to what I need for not too dark places, though the new 007 would probably be very helpful in those circumstances. Since we have 37,5 MP to play with, I can easily crop out the extreme corners when I feel the subject gets pushed too far back because of the extreme wide angle.

As for the price of the S cameras, it is what is. Sure, I'd very much like to be able to buy the new S for €10.000 and sure, Leica would sell more cameras if the price were lower, but you know, they can sell them at €23.000. Probably more than they can produce the coming one, two years ...

I agree with everybody here that a lower price would help make a larger user base for the S system and that would be a good thing.

Cheers,

Peter

 

[Rolo]

Hi, Peter,
Thanks for the benefit of your experience. Leica loaned me a 24mm for 2 weeks at the end of last year for a trip to Venice, Italy. I took the opportunity to shoot 300 frames with it and a selection of 6 of these are shown at the end of this album: https://www.flickr.com/photos/rolophoto/sets/72157642515528753/

I found it to be fabulous and I especially like it because I prefer 1:1, or 5:4 crops and this gives me the width on the short side that I need. I am/was very happy with it, but here it sells for £6,500 which is a step to be taken carefully.

Above, I wasn't giving an opinion on the cost of ownership, just sharing info on the cost on supplying this kit. Of course I'd like prices to drop, although I consider the current S-E to be a reasonable price (relatively) and that's why I updated my S2 recently. I've currently got the 35mm and 70mm, plus a V adapter an a bunch of V lenses that would fund the 24mm, for sure.

Thanks again.

Gary

 

[peterv]

Hi Gary, thanks, these are excellent shots you made in Venice, not only with the 24mm, I like the complete series. I'd seen some of those shots before on your Facebook.

The 24mm is really great for those crops you mentioned and as someone who is not used to the wide angle FOV, let alone a so-called extreme wide angle, I agree that the extra 'headroom' every shot gets vertically (in landscape) has me pleasantly surprised, in that it kind of automatically gives compositions I did not 'see' before.

As for the whole price-thing, my contribution on that part wasn't aimed at you directly. I'm sorry, I should have made that more clear. Anyway, I'm with everyone who says the price of entry into the S system is too high for the system to get a (relatively) large(r) user base. Especially with regards to the 'competition' from the upcoming 50 MP FF's. Look at the thread title of this thread. And the OP is certainly not the only one who asks these kind of questions.

I frequent the MF forum over at LuLa and it seems that this question (is Medium Format really that much better?) is on everyones mind, these days. And for good reason. Not that I'd want to trade in my 'old tech' S2-P for a modern CaNikon or Sony, but I can certainly understand young photographers who are going to need to invest, wondering if the extra 10-20K is going to give the ROI they need to grow their business. Because of that, I'd want Leica to rethink their pricing policy, get those people on board, now.

But like I said, I believe Leica thinks they'll sell enough 007's as it is.

 

[anGy]

+1 for the 24mm S.
I recently put mine for sale in here but still have hard time deciding if it's the good decision.
This lens is just brilliant. I like to use it for 2x1 pano when stitching is not possible (moving subjects or shooting from a boat, etc).
My problem with it is related to perspective control for architecture.
I miss my Cambo and Phase back for that purpose. With no software correction I get better (meaning more consistent) results with the Leica (no need for color cast / vigneting correction etc) and the Leica is easier and faster to use than the tech. cam. But it is another story when software perspective correction needs to be applied on the S24mm. Corners can start to be ugly when severe corrections are applied.
ps: also tested the Sony A7r + Canon 24mm T/S against the S 24mm software corrected for perspectives and the Leica easily beats the Sony/Canon system (corners are waaaaay sharper).

 

[John Black]

I cannot justify paying the $25,400 US for an S-007 simply because history has shown that within 2 years the current S-bodies are on Ebay and elsewhere for $10,000. ($25,400 - $10,000) / 24 months = $641 per month. Ouch... Buying a $10,000 used S-006, getting 18-24 months out of it and then selling it $5-6k works out to ~$150-200 per month. I can work with that.

Whether the S is better than a D810 or 5Dsr isn't right question IMO. It comes down to what is most enjoyable to use (assuming this is a hobby). I enjoy using a big, bright OVF and I'm willing to pay a hefty premium for one. I'd prefer the S' sensor to be 54x41mm, but the Phase One digital backs come with too many trades offs (e.g. - the DF body, dual batteries, poor battery life in the back, larger, etc.) The S body is more nimble in comparison.

The latest firmware 2.4.x.x has really transformed the S-006 experience IMO. Auto-focus feels faster and shutter lag is less. The camera feels "peppy" and eager to shoot. I'm not blindly in love with the camera, but it's a nice camera to shoot and with the lens adapters, just about anything can be mounted and used on the S (referencing Mamiya, Contax, Hass and Pentax adapters). The S' OVF is nice, but I think it's speed bump in the auto-focus and reduction in shutter lag that have caught my attention lately.

When it comes to the S-007, if it delivers all that is promised, I'd love to have one. And when used prices are around 50% off of retail, I'll be the watching the Buy / Sell boards.