Trusted source on the German LUF says not to read anything special in to the 'full AF support'. It's just a translation-thing, i.e. the camera is AF, nothing more or less.
http://www.keithlaban.co.uk1 Member(s) liked this post
So this is basically no new news.
2 Member(s) liked this post
Pricing, boutiqueness, ....
2 Member(s) liked this post
Doug Herr http://www.wildlightphoto.com
There will be two additional lenses coming as well - with a TL mount - which are T mount lenses that can be used on both Leica T and Leica SL. We know the lenses will have electronic connections, as the T does. What will be interesting is how the crop is handled because of the differing image circles.
Summilux-TL 35mm ASPH
Macro-Elmarit-TL 60mm ASPH
steve2 Member(s) liked this post
Well considering Leica just bought out a company known to make 4x5 cameras. And the world doesn't have a 4x5 digital camera (aside from that one fellow who had one custom made a while back). Could that have something to do with the announcement? Would make sense given that view cameras are backwards. And they didn't change... Well until October 20th when they become digital and LV enabled.
That would be kinda awesome sauce for landscape and studio shooters. Though I highly doubt it because of the whole 24mp sensor.
Chances are with 24mp, it's FF135 and it's not going to change anything Because unless Germans don't know what Sony is.. It has already been done.
Even the move the film AF has already been done.
I don't think just because Sony has the A7rII(or whatever the 42mp one is called... Sorry, I get really confused with the Sony and Olympus name designations!) that it negates the value of a similar camera from Leica. Ive got a MFDB system that I love and I would love a 24mp Leica system that's basically a mini S camera or beefed up Q. My hope is that it has the video qualities of the GH4 in a full frame sensor, plus IBIS and the still photo quality of Leica, with a modern af system and a beautiful EVF. If they can make adapters to use full functioning Nikon and canon glass, like they did for the S and Hassy/Contax lenses that would be amazing. It would definitely help more people transition to it and slowly build up some Leica lenses. As opposed to having to spend a ton of money for a new camera and full lens lineup. But it is a Leica, so it will not be cheap. The images that I've seen from the Q have had the most depth of any digital 35mm that I've seen. Granted this is just online images, so I need to test one in person. But if I'm hopeful that this new camera will be the perfect one, for me, right in between a micro 4/3 and MFDB. I just haven't been totally happy with the canikons for a while. Not that they aren't great cameras, they are. So is the Sony A7rII and the fact that they came through with uncompressed raw is great. And as always, they are the tools we use to make great pictures, not the reason we make them. It's just like a painter preferring different brushes or paint. We are lucky there are so many great options out there for us to choose and the technology is so advanced. It's really like choosing which roll of film is right for you back in the "old" days. Fuji, Kodak, velvia, provia... Except those only cost a few dollars a roll.
Please excuse typos and incomplete thoughts. Typed on my iPhone on a train...
1 Member(s) liked this post
Painters seldom talk abouit their tools such as paints and brushes, they just get on with creating art. Gear always seems to be our fall back position and our nemisis.
5 Member(s) liked this post
The mirror-image let me dream for a moment that the camera has a mirror and an OVF (A mini-S) but I am sure it wont. I still have not fully adpopted to EVF.(without any intention to discuss advantages and disadvantages)
Last edited by Paratom; 15th October 2015 at 12:58.
1 Member(s) liked this post
I have to agree, a decent OVF, tough build quality in a mini S would be excellent, I am yet to use a mirrorless camera that I like although not tried the very latest Sony's.
It's all guessing until they announce, very unlikely it will be for me but interesting to see how things are progressing, I'm sure it will polarise opinion as normal!
I have shot with EVFs so much that a typical OVF just doesn't cut it anymore.
I rely on the info readily available in an EVF.
Optimal would be to combine those two VFs into a single one without lesser availability of information.
With best regards, K-H.1 Member(s) thanked for this post
Well I think we can all be happy that there are options regardless of your preference, long may it continue!
http://matrichardson.com/1 Member(s) liked this post
I think you missed my point.
My point was.. Leica's recent few teasers have all been very boastful. Like they're bringing out something revolutionary. But all the rumours point to a mirrorless full frame camera (and that has already been done by Sony). Nothing revolutionary about it. I'm hoping they've got something up their sleeve... But I have a feeling not.
2 Member(s) liked this post
Comparing the S to the A7Rii, I would say the fact that it has a mirror and OVF is among the best features. As far as EVF's have come, they still pale in comparison for showing you a clear, accurate view of the scene. I was shooting the A7rii last week in a situation where the EVF's ability to show contrast, color and saturation was woefully inadequate...everything looked washed out, despite the photo being fine. The EVF's are interesting for their ability to see into the dark, but they still cannot replicate the clarity of a regular OVF in daylight, especially one as good as the one in the S. In any case, if Leica does go the EVF route for the new camera, I would not see it as a replacement for the S or M. My hope is that they continue to develop a hybrid solution like the X100, something which offers the best of both worlds....
Either way, still looking forward to the release of whatever this is!
Come on guys. If rumors are to be somewhat on point:
24MP FF Q-like sensor
better Q-like ISO
some AF system
The current S007 sells for $16k-body only and it took Leica until September to bring it to market after announcing it nearly a year before. Do you really think it will be another S any thing announced on the 20th? Leica's trouble is that they are stuck in a rut with 37.5MP being their top end MP camera so all others by deifnition must have less MP than the current S model. This leaves them only being able to work on higher ISO, AF PDAF sensors in the 24MP range while other manufacturers improve on all aspects of their sensors including MP.
Is their something in the S lineup that is keeping Leica stuck at 37.5MP? Maybe, but what?
Your posts always make me laugh Algrove, it's like you are personally offended by S users!
If mp's are your focus then there are loads of options, like you have taken, the Z is one, I for one prefer quality over quantity, uniformity of lenses, not just a few which are good and some old ones that are great stopped down. It's not personal, people can chose Leica if they want, same as they can chose Sony, Pentax, Hasselblad, Phase One, Nikon, Canon or any of the other myriad of manufacturers providing equipment to people who love using it!
I have sold many photographs printed 1.5m wide from a single S frame cropped to 2:1, mp's aren't everything in fact for some of us enough is enough and all the other factors to owning and using a camera are more important.
Have a nice evening!
I guess it will be what we read in the speculations. I just had that short dream, it could have an OVF (because of the steep price). But I am pretty sure it wont.
When shooting with an EVF I always feel I have to check the image afterwards to see if I have caught the moment. A combination of slight delay, limited DR and resolution of the viewfinder compared to an optical viewfinder. (As long as the optical viewfinder is large enough).
But then Leica offers the M and the S with OVF, so there are options.
I really wonder about lens sizes of the new system, if it will be considerably smaller than FF-DSLR-lenses or same size.
I agree with you that their decision to stick to 37.5mp in the S puts them in somewhat of a bind with respect to resolution. No matter how much the execs say 37.5mp is "enough" for everyone, there is only so long that they will be able to do so. As 40-50mp becomes the norm for the high resolution 35mm cameras, getting someone to pay 13,000 US extra for a lower resolution camera with similar or lesser high ISO performance will be quite a hard sell. Even harder than it is now...and I say this as an S user who also uses the A7rII. The S (006) still has the quality (by a hair) and handling edge, but it is too close for comfort. As for why they chose to keep it at 37.5mp, personally I think they pay too much attention to fashion photographers, because that fits their idealized image of their camera system. Since they rarely need larger than a magazine spread, they are more interested in frames per second, live view and the ability to do some in camera video. They also thought, probably correctly, that many people don't print very large, and that 37.5mp is more than enough for most purposes. While rational, it disregards human behavior when it comes to these types of purchase, which is a desire to be ahead of the competition. People buying a Ferrari like to know that it is faster than their neighbor's Subaru, even if sometimes it isn't, as in the case of a WRX STi.
In reality, most users of the S are wealthy amateurs or working pros with extra income to spend on a high quality system that will handle all conditions and features the best possible lenses. Certainly a balance of speed (both handling and ISO) is important, but they cannot do so at the expense of sacrificing their image quality and resolution advantage. The fact is that they released the S at 37.5mp when the highest resolution 35mm cameras were 24mp...that was already six years ago and the resolution is the same, as is the overall image quality at moderate ISOs. At the time they billed their lenses as being capable to survive the next three generations of pixel sizes, such that they could tolerate sensors with up to 100mp...hopefully they will design a body to suit those lenses! Increasingly even people who are invested in the system will ask themselves, "what's the point in spending 8000 USD on a lens and 16,000 on a camera body when you can buy a 3000 dollar camera with a 800 dollar lens that out-resolves it?"
I wonder if owners of 80mp backs sit there laughing at owners of 50mp cameras saying my camera is 30 better than their cameras?! I may be entirely alone in thinking that mp are way way down the list of important factors in a camera, I'm fine with that! There are some people using and enjoying the A7s with 12mp, heathens.
MP may be down on the list of important features for a consumer camera or for a camera focused on sports or journalism, but when you are in the ultra-premium segment marketing your cameras and lenses as being the utmost in quality and performance, it is hard to say it with a straight face when the much cheaper competition meets or exceeds your offering when it comes to specs and indeed actual performance. Personally, my last book and my last two exhibitions used every bit of the S quality and could have used more. The book was printed at 600dpi and used nearly all the resolution. The prints in the show were 1x1.5m and printed at 120pi...my printer can do 360 and would have turned out even better results with more resolution, assuming the quality was the same otherwise. In any case, I am certainly not looking for the S to have higher resolution so that I can laugh at Sony or Canon users...I am not sure where you got that from? I want more resolution because I will use it, and it will be far more useful to me that 3.5 frames per second or ISO 12,000! Of course, this is also not to say that the S does not have quality as it is, only that personally I think they went the wrong direction in the new model...they probably did not have much choice, since finding a new sensor would likely cost more and be riskier than recycling and improving the CMOSIS chip from the M like they did with the M9 sensor in the S2.
Serious question Stuart, why are you using an S at all if you don't need speed or ISO but you need more resolution? Surely there are better solutions? 80mp and a tech cam maybe?
My point is and always will be that there are options for pretty much everyone wanting whatever is on their list, your priorities may be yours alone, as mine may be mine alone, the point has to be for a small company to produce what will sell within their ethos, Leica's is clear.
So as not to further derailing the thread, I will keep it brief! Basically, the S is perfect for Iceland and my work. The completely weather sealed AF lenses, usable at any aperture are extremely compelling. As is the handling, which is both intuitive and functional -- I can operate all functions while wearing gloves or even mittens. The viewfinder and ergonomics are superior to every camera I have used, and the out of the box image quality is far better than I have had with any other camera, including other mfd cameras. I used to have a Hy6, and the S is a far more functional camera for my uses. I can use the S in the studio, in the field and for landscapes or editorials. I also prefer working in Lightroom vs capture one or other software, so Leica's native support is ideal. Combining this with Leica's willingness to help me directly in a country with no reliable dealer network means that the S is the best camera for me. The only area where I think we differ is that I mostly use the camera at base ISO and would prefer it had more resolution, and you don't need resolution and would prefer higher ISO and speed. Since I mostly use Sony cameras for video, having the S do this is not as compelling unless it can do it better, which does not appear to be the case.
I understand Stuart, I guess we need to be extremely lucky to find any product that does everything we want and most of the time have to compromise on a few things, the smaller the number of those things the better. You are right, we differ on the need for resolution, I care most about what my clients need and despite the fact that I provide 2 versions of every image I produce, 1 optimised for web and 1 full size optimised for print, very rarely is anything used beyond web and promotional material use. The few clients who have produced display stands with files have been amazed with the results so no need for larger for what I do, I can fully appreciate you work in a different way.
Is anyone really going to get excited about these lenses? Sure they're nice ranges but they're still variable aperture, which means a 50mm 3.5. I don't care how sharp it is it'll render like a variable aperture zoom. Leica is known for making jewel like prime lenses with fast apertures. Releasing this with a 50, 35, 90, and maybe a 24mm seems like something that would actually bring excitement. And on top of that it's going to cost 10 grand? Even if I wanted to spend $10,000 on a 35mm camera all I would get is a 50/1.4 or a variable aperture zoom? I'm sorry but this just seems like Leica from the bad-old-days of cutting corners to save money and testing for the high water mark of price acceptability. Even if they cut that price in half, a $5,000 dollar mirrorless 35mm camera would still be absurdly expensive. Lets hope it is 5 grand or else this is destined to go the way of the T. Nobody is spending 10 grand on a 35mm camera with a slow zoom.
For those excited about a mirrorless S... Why not SLT tech? Best of both worlds. I don't think that the S needs to be shrunk much, it's lenses are huge and have to be. Throwing an EVF and a MULTI-POINT-PLEASE focusing system and you got a game changer.
It's still too expensive. Leica should try and attract the wedding market, their camera is almost perfect suited to that task and it's the largest growing photographic industry left over. We print our photos and we love the beautiful rending of lenses like the 100/2. Get one in the hands of Jose Villa and see what happens. But it's not happening until the camera and lens is $10,000.
I also find 2.8-4.0 not slow for such a lens.
I admit that a couple of fast primes would be important as well. (As of today I prefer 2-3 primes over a zoom, no matter how fast (and big) it is.
I find the 2 zooms to be an excellent choice (24-90, 90-280), and they are reasonably fast with 2.8-4. Especially the 90-280 would be one of my favorite lenses and fast enough for almost all I need to do in that focal length range, especially sports and wildlife keeping in mind the high ISO capabilities we can expect from this camera (if it is at least as good as the Q)!
I also find the primes - if they come as rumored - to be perfect. 1.4/50 and 1.4/35 are a wonderful duo and the 2.8/60 was - as I already mentioned - one of my most used lenses for the Leica R.
There could be more primes from the beginning, but I assume these will come asap (whatever asap means in Leica terms ). Also a wide zoom would be great, something in the range of 16-35.
I'm down with the idea that Leica makes an S-007 and an SM-007. The M standing for megapixels (something crazy like 160mp would be good for double printing size that's currently available). Because I'm sure people need it. But at 37mp it's already more then necessary for my uses.
Please do the calculations on 600DPI at your print size. And ask yourself if any manufacturer has a solution for you.
I agree with your frustration. I do think Leica is testing their "luxury" market with this camera.
To be fair however. Leica made a lot of amazing variable aperture zooms in the R days. But in 2015 we should get better performance for our money.
I was happy when I thought I'd see a few more Q cameras (different FLs). But at $10k for a 50/1.4 135mm setup.. It's gonna have to blow everything else out of the water.. And by a large margin.
And again, I love the OVF in the S. But I wouldn't mind a compact mirrorless S, if it has speedy AF.
I very much enjoyed the S back and forth commentary. I do not dislike S owners. I have shot with many over the years. It is just so overpriced like my M240 cameras I use and love. But don't say anything bad about my Q.
Yes, the Q is great. And I think the price point is fair for what you get. Again, I kinda wish Leica would have just added the necessary updates to the Q (half stop shutter, half stop aperture) and then just brought out a 35/75 or 28/50/90 versions. Update the flash to something usable and viola. I'm happy for the next 10 years + whatever S-system I decide to keep/use + the newest M available
2 Member(s) liked this post