I also think that Leica owe us free SL-R adapters for their failure with the R10!! It's not forgotten by R-users.
The R and S adapters shall be included in the kit with that zoom APO lens. If not, it's a joke of a system camera!!!
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1. Fast frame rate
2. Great build quality
3. Good ergonomics
4. Top LCD
5. Deep buffer
6. Proper connections, including full size HDMI and flash sync
7. 4K, both types
8. Reasonably sized battery
9. 2 SD cards
10. All the goodies in one model (No R or S needed for improved this and that)
1. Light weight (It's lighter than the D810, D4s, EOS 1D X, EOS 1D C, EOS 5D all of them, etc.)
2. Compact size (It's smaller than all of the above as well, but probably large enough for my hands.)
3. IBIS (It lacks IBIS like most pro cameras. It would be nice to have, but I've never had it nor missed it.)
4. Phase detect AF (Yup, would have loved that)
5. Tilting LCD (My guess: They thought it wouldn't be strong enough for the intended use. There are arguments going both ways.)
6. High resolution sensor (Higher resolution than D4s, EOS 1D X, EOS 1D C, EOS 5D III, A7s II etc.)
Last edited by Jorgen Udvang; 20th October 2015 at 20:35.
actually if leica ships the m and s adapters with the camera at no extra charge, it makes much more appealing for everybody. they will sell more cameras, and lenses of all sorts.
to charge 7k for a body that sony redoes every 6 months is too much.
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also the viewfinder for sure made in japan, and i think we will see it in the next olympus em1 and fuji xt-1
Did I mention the tiny batteries of the Sony?
Oh, and Ming's review is up:
Plus, more than one lens.
It looks like an intriguing camera for owners of Leica glass that want a mirrorless solution.
Hopefully, it will push Sony and the other camera makers to up their game just by its mere existence.
The biggest issue I see though, is that there is only one AF lens to choose from. And boy is that glass huge!
I dunno...seems to me a bit chunky, like the first Leica SLR. Only after the third iteration did Leica finally get into the groove of designing a camera that started to feel more human scaled.
As it stands right now with its lenses, suddenly my Canon 6D with the Sigma 35mm Art lens doesn't seem so big.
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Hey it's cheaper than an r9 and a dmr.
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I posted this another forum also, but at this point I think it's quite obvious that Leica's new partner is Samsung, who can make sensors, processors, and LCD's in-house. Everything about this camera, including the high frame/buffer rates, screams "full-frame NX-1" to me. The biggest give-away was the Korean print on the base-plate of the Leica Q.
And for what it is:
It's a 24 megapixel, 11 fps camera with a 4 megapixel viewfinder that also shoots 4K video (both formats) and 120 fps 1080 HD video. I would like to see other cameras that do this at a lower weight/smaller size, with the same build quality and weather sealing.
Remember when the S2 was launched? Not many saw the logic in that camera. Now, it's a well established part of the camera landscape.
I just don't get the value proposition for a professional.
My niece got married on Saturday. The professional was toting a bog standard Nikon pro body and had a smaller spare (probably a D610 or similar). Her main lens was obviously a 24-70 type zoom (a Sigma from the look of it) and she had what looked like the monster Nikon WA zoom for group shots.
Unless my maths is wrong the total of her kit including strobe is probably equal to, or even less than the SL+24-90. What Wedding Pro except those doing the top end weddings is going to be able to afford two SLs (for safety) and two lenses?
Then there is the disaster recovery issue. If her camera had failed on the day then she had a cheaper similar body for backup but with an equally good sensor. If her camera had failed before the wedding she could hire a body for the day/weekend which will be compatible with her bog-standard lens collection.
So, I can only assume the SL is aimed at wannabe professionals and not real professionals.
Actually, thinking about it I'd modify that and say it probably does have a place for videographers with deep pockets. But it is competing with the Panasonic GH-4 'whatever' which professionals I have talked to use as the 4K standard, some use the Sony A7S which has the iso sensitivity advantage and just got a whole lot better in the M2 version, so again why buy a £10K system - what on earth would be the ROI?
There is nothing I can see in this system which would compete with or replace the value proposition of my Sony kit at the best mirrorless ILC on the market. There is the Leica build and ergonomics but the premium is ridiculously high.
The strangest contradiction in product management terms is that the Leica Q which is by comparison a third of the price but has the same sensor would probably make a good second camera for a wedding pro for reportage and grab shots. I have an order in for one (no deposit, so no pressure) but I'm now seriously thinking of getting the Sony RX1R mk2 instead.
Sony is basically thrashing Leica and I seem to meet some of my Leica forum chums here at GetDPI who can no longer justify the benefits of a Leica system over the value proposition of Sony - especially as each iteration of their body/sensor works better and better with legacy Leica glass.
Anyway, if a pro out there can explain the value proposition I am genuinely interested and not just trolling.
Just my two cents!
Thanks Jono for the early review.
Somehow i managed to pick out all the trielmar shots without even looking at caption.....hmmm..... (Not the wide angle part that captured my attention). There is definitely something special about the trielmar
Now after reading more reviews and hands-on article, i feel it makes more sense to look at it as.....S but Light....oh wait.... Hmm...
Keep It Simple.
XQ2 / A7r / 15mm / 25mm / 28-35-50mm
EOS M3 / 18-35mm
It's impossible to argue with the price+technology of the Sony kit to produce an output... but it feels like mass market disposable (at least the A7RII does imho).
I added an M240 to my working kit this year and love it. But it is a really small kit, 3 lenses, two film bodies and one M digital. Part of the reason for this is Leica is by far the worst in terms of taking care of pros with horrible repair turn around times and no loaner gear out there. I sent both a Leica and Hasselblad lens out to have the collimation checked at the same time, the Hasselblad came back adjusted in just 10 days. The Leica lens took 6 weeks just to get out into the system in Solms and will now be gone another 8 weeks.
With Leica, if a lens needs to go to Solms, you buy another one and when the repaired one gets back, you keep the better of the two and sell the other one. I did that very thing with buying a 35mm FLE when my pre-FLE went in for adjustment. When it comes back I will sell it.
Very, very few *real* pros if any will be buying the SL.
It's not overpriced a penny considering the quality and low production numbers. It will sell out. It will hold value.
The weak link is going to be the AF lens set, which may never materialize in remotely the options you have with a D810. So, of course lots of small scale pros would never consider it. Good thing, because they could not make enough.
It's a real supercar, and they are not always totally practical
But let's say then, that you want a camera that does photography, minimum 11 fps (for whatever reason), and 4k video using an internal viewfinder and sometimes 120 fps HD video as well. Which one would you suggest? The NX1 comes close, but it's not full frame.
And don't claim that those requirements are unusual or irrelevant. This is exactly the kind of specs I have dreamed of with my combination of assignments, doing sports, events, industrial, portrait and travel photography. The D810 goes a long way to satisfy my needs, but it's not a practical camera for video. A7... forget it. Too small battery, only one card slot, alien ergonomics, slow burst mode etc.
I agree, to class pro's as being the same or requiring the same is pretty absurd. As with all camera users, nobody needs to justify what they want to use. It has many pro features and for a pro it's written off over 3 years and if you aren't making enough money to afford it then there are more serious issues to deal with, like getting another job!
The more I read of this the more I like, I hate small cameras, personal thing and this looks a good size to actually hold and use on a job. Balance will be something I can only judge if I hold it but the S balance negates the weight, it's so nice to hold.
A couple of decent contracts will buy this camera for me but it's not something I will get, at least not now as there is nothing I lack from the 007 and 006 combination. I think Leica did a great job of this camera, good luck to them.
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Here's an article with several photos that show the size of the camera more realistically:
Leica SL 35mm Full Frame Autofocus | Film and Digital Times
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As a 'professional' camera, the lack of PDAF is a deal-breaker for photographers, and the lack of a tilting/articulating screen will prevent videographers from considering this camera. Besides, what pro will buy a camera with one native lens and nonexistant support?
I respect Leica for having the guts to make this camera on one end. "Very German" was my first thought. And I am sure it has some degree of great usability and the lenses will be amazing.
But at this point I am a fan of smaller cameras, so decidedly not for me, and as for image and all I do believe you can get comparable image quality in some ways at at least half the price.
But I still respect in a way the guts to go for such a particular design even if it's not to my personal preferences in what I want in a camera, as far as being coherent/consistent.
Although the Panasonic cameras have a fully articulated LCD, I rarely used it for video, except when I used WA lenses. For those who shoot video on a professional level, an external monitor would mostly be fitted anyway.
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Chief among these is "how successful" one may be. If you have a good business model and sharp accountant, are positioned at the higher end of your market and/or have less external financial pressure that allows you to prioritize what you want to work with ... IF there is something you think will work well for you, and how you shoot, then equipment costs become less of an issue.
Leica has set their sights on those with the means to choose almost anything they want, whether pro or amateur. Volume sales isn't their objective. While we compare this SL to Nikon, Canon or Sony, that isn't really the competitive set for Leica. In a manner of speaking, Leica could be seen as a reward for doing well ... wether a successful Doctor, Engineer, or Professional Photographer
So, you are probably right, this SL system is of little to no value to a wedding shooter positioned at the lower or even mid-range of their market, certainly not a Craig's Lister cranking out weddings for $1K or less. In contrast, my last wedding was $6K, plus I was doing a fair amount of corporate work and commercial shoots on top of weddings and portraits with established day rates ... (have one this January for $4.5K plus all expenses for 7 hours shooting).
If Jono and Ming's assessments are correct, this kit is exactly what I'd seriously consider. I'm use to Leica prices and did work for pay with comparatively expensive Leica M9s & a MM with a King's ransom in M lenses, plus a S2 (now a S-006) and CS lenses. My work horse wedding DSLR was a 24 meg FF Sony A99SLT and 6 ZA lenses which I recently sold. If Leica had made a Digital R to replace the DMR, that is what I would have been using instead.
I tried the Sony A7R and found it wasn't up to my pro wedding needs. To loud, short battery life, an EVF that smeared in low light movement, too much timing lag, too complex interface, didn't shoot to two cards ... not to mention poor choice of AF lenses until more recently. While the A7R-II addresses some of these issues, it still falls short. Its value proposition to me was poor. Actually, the A99 was better in most cases.
In contrast, this SL hits a lot of the marks that are of importance for me:
24 meg FF is my sweet spot for most pro assignments, most certainly weddings. This camera is quiet. It doesn't lag. It shoots to two cards. Seems to have a simple interface similar to the S camera (4 buttons around the LCD), has a higher res EVF and fast refresh rate. The AF seems quick and accurate according to reviewers. Compared to the FE 24-70/4, the new 24-90/2.8-4 stabilized lens is the perfect zoom range for weddings and lots of other applications. If it is anything like the Leica 28-90R lens, it'll render to my liking.
I have hesitated in ordering the A7R-II, and while I liked the new S(007), also have hesitated ordering that. This time it seems procrastination is paying off. I will now get this kit instead.
I will be able to use my M lenses and S lenses ... so I probably will only need the SL body and the 24-90 zoom ... which combined are thousands less than the S(007) body alone. Hopefully, my SF58 speed-lights will work. My S kit can now reside predominately (but not exclusively) in studio tethered to a 5K retina screen (best LCD review ever!), or be used on jobs or personal projects requiring portable lighting with leaf-shutter CS lenses.
The issue others have with the SL grip probably won't concern me as much ... I use a Camadapter dual lug ARCA QR plate with a hand-strap and wide soft shoulder strap on all my working cameras. It eliminates long term hand fatigue and shoulder strain even when carrying a S camera and big S lenses ... like at a wedding.
Last edited by fotografz; 21st October 2015 at 01:04.
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Marc, You may want to check out the battery life (SL vs A7r II) before thinking this ticks all the boxes for you. Also, the lag time.
I agree with all Marc's points. I work in a small market flooded with people with a 6D and kit zoom lens, I am often 3 times the price and yet I have decent regular work because I provide value, cheap and value are 2 different things! I made the conscious decision to work at a level with equipment that is not normal and for me it pays off. Decent contracts can be very lucrative, my recent trip to Mali paid for the 007 and 24mm lens no problem, everything I earn with it over the next 3 years is profit.
The SL appears more and more interesting every time I read something new, my 006 is on the way back from being completely overhauled and was going to be my backup but I can see myself selling it for the SL, on a tripod with an S lens shooting high quality video whilst I shoot stills with the 007, could be an ideal kit for me. This afternoon I am shooting an event with the 007, it's overkill for sure as I know the images will be on facebook and website, the SL with the 24-90 will do the job extremely well and more importantly, would still give me the same look to the files so it wouldn't appear to the client that I'm using something cheaper for the job.
Anyway, it's another option, I wish them loads of success with it.
2. As for video, there's no way an articulated LCD won't help. And to add insult to injury they even decided to go without IBIS!! So you're stuck with the native 24-90mm for video if you want autofocus or any sort of stabilization.
3. Ming Thein also mentions the ergonomics are WORSE than Sony. He finds the grip very uncomfortable.
So much like the original A7's, this camera is an half-hearted effort. I applaud Leica for pushing the envelope, but honestly it would be smart to wait for the next generation of this camera. By then they'll surely have more lenses too.
1. Thank God the SL has an HDMI, 10 bit, 4-2-2 output with V-log.
We could not use the M240 for much of our video work because it
did not have an output for an external monitor or recorder. The SL
now lets the Director or Producer see what the camera operator is
2. The 24 to 90 lens is the perfect video interview lens. In combination with our Apo Vario Elmar 70-180, we can get maximum
quality in 4k. We generally want to shoot at F 4 or F 3.5 on the larger
chip cameras because we need the DOF. We light the subject, so, we
don't need an F1.4 unless we are in some wild uncontrolled situation.
Hopefully, Metabones will make an adapter for the T mount (L mount??).
Price of the new zoom....A Leica quality lens for $5k sounds like a good deal to me. Cooke, Angenieux , and Fuji video zoom lenses cost at least $15k to $30k. And you have to have two overlapping lenses for
most situations. There seems to be a PL to T adapter on the way from
Leica which will allow many older film/video lenses to be used on the SL.
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My impression, all the M lenses used in Jono Slack's article getDPI | Photography at its best seemed to be carefully chosen; of course understandably so. I own several but not all of those lenses. Mine also work very well on an unmodified Sony A7r2 camera.
I am looking forward to Jono's promised article on M lenses that are known to have problems on (unmodified) Sony A7 cameras but do much better on the SL, according to Jono. Of interest to me would also be a comparison of their performance on a modified A7r2.
Nevertheless, congratulations on a well written but uncritical introduction of a new Leica system that needs to be looked at with a grain of salt IMHO.
Whereas Jono's article reads more like a sales brochure to me, Ming Thein's blog has more of the character of a review, spelling out the good and the bad as he sees it. Actually from Ming's article I personally get a much clearer impression of the areas the SL excels in and leaves the competition behind.
The differences in camera design philosophie of Sony and Leica are becoming much clearer. Although some lenses in both camps can be larger, I nevertheless appreciate more a smaller camera body over a larger one as it seems to offer more flexibility.
Last edited by k-hawinkler; 21st October 2015 at 03:43.
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I am also a little concerned regarding the size of the lenses. Body size looks good to me. Right now Inthink if I would have theat amount of money I wouldnrather upgrade from s006 to s007 than buying a sl+lens.
I am also quite happy with the T system for casual shooting. If they give us a T with included evf and af-speed like the sl then I am fine.
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I also cannot see where this giant camera that lacks IBIS, low light capabilities, PDAF, canon lens compatibility, a significant native AF lens availability, Eye Tracking AF, a tilting screen, high resolution, any semblance of affordability and more can be flatly called a better all-around solution.
For me, it would represent a giant leap backwards from either my A7r2 or my Samsung NX1.
But, for the well-heeled Leica specific crowd, especially those that don't mind a large camera body, it looks like an interesting choice.
I would particularly like to see a Sony body with a high frame rate and a deeper buffer and more responsiveness in every day usage.
Hopefully, these strengths of the Leica are praised so widely that Sony begins to feel the heat.
Otherwise, I hope that Canon or Nikon makes a mirrorless with those features.
Or, I would love to see Samsung wake from its long slumber and invest in the NX1 system with more great lenses. Or release their own insanely spec'd FF body.
Or maybe the rumored November Sony camera body already incorporates those features.
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This is a very nice piece of gear. Video side with full HD at 120fps (super interesting), built like a fewKing panzer ... a very durable tool if someone is able to invest such a price. With this in the pocket and some judicious lenses, no need other cameras for many many years.
Now, this is sure Nikon or Canon will produce something at least similar (in build quality I hope).
For me it is the best leica ever and it will be a major success for the brand.
With a body that large, I would have expected MF sensor inside. It is almost the size of a Mamiya 7ii...
This camera seems to have hit a very sensitive spot with Sony shooters...
I guess Leica must have done something right
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Personally I think this will be a great camera, specifically for those looking for a 35mm FF Leica S backup or a true R solution (even if it doesn't currently fit into my personal needs) and one that could be a real DSLR alternative IF there were more market and user access. From that marketing standpoint I think this is a market success. As a competitor in the mirrorless market though I think it's somewhat of a failure as Sony, Olympus, Fuji, and Samsung will likely surpass the technological features of this cameras pretty quickly as many pf them are already surpassed. The same can be said for the pro level DSLR's (5D, 6D, D810, etc) that are all about due for replacement/update soon.
Choice is good and if I still was in the "Leica Ecosystem" or wanted to get my wife a camera this would be something I'd consider along with the Fuji, Sony, or Olympus choices.
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I used to shoot with a M8/M8.2/M9/M240 and recently switched to the A7 series, but I still have my M lenses and a Leica Q.
This product pisses me off because it wasn't a ILC version of the Leica Q like it was hyped to be. That is what I wanted. Nothing more nothing less
But I do want a great viewfinder, 4K video, slo-mo video, 2 storage cards, a top LCD, batteries that last as long as possible and a camera that can take the abuse that I expose it to. And I don't care if my camera is 600 or 800 or 900 grams. I carry several kilograms of lenses anyway, always.
So for me, this is a better all-round solution than any A7. That may change when the A7 Mark III versions are launched next year of course, and I probably can't afford the Leica anyway. But that is fine, since the D810 is still a great camera, and it will continue to be great for years to come.