Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

[aDam007]

I think you miss the point. Photographers for over 150 years carried extremely heavy gear over long distances because they had to do so in order to get the performance advantages that such equipment offered. I cannot imagine anyone CHOOSING to carry 30-40 pounds of camera equipment if they could get the same or better performance out of camera equipment that weighs 10 pounds.
For me, this is not about the cost. It is frequently the case that the last 5-10% improvement in performance carries a very big price tag. I get that. I would pay (and have paid) for that. I own and carry medium format equipment with an 80 MP back because it offers capabilities that I cannot otherwise get. However, a Leica SL with a 24 MP sensor and that weighs what it weighs? I am at a loss to see what advantages it offers compared to a Sony A7RII (other than the EVF).

SL = 847g w/battery

A7rII = 625g w/battery + 2 spare batteries (2x42g) (if the SL is anything like the Q w/power management it'll take 3 sony batteries to = 1 Q/SL) for a total of = 709g and the annoyance of having batteries in your pockets.

That's not a lot of difference. AND yes the zoom is heavy/large/etc. but if the quality is good, and Sony had an SL adapter, how many people would buy it? Tons of people right now reach for R-zooms for their Sony. I even see adapters for medium format lenses.


BTW, I need to workout more anyway. I'm getting skinny.

 

[RVB]

SL = 847g w/battery

A7rII = 625g w/battery + 2 spare batteries (2x42g) (if the SL is anything like the Q w/power management it'll take 3 sony batteries to = 1 Q/SL) for a total of = 709g and the annoyance of having batteries in your pockets.

That's not a lot of difference. AND yes the zoom is heavy/large/etc. but if the quality is good, and Sony had an SL adapter, how many people would buy it? Tons of people right now reach for R-zooms for their Sony. I even see adapters for medium format lenses.


BTW, I need to workout more anyway. I'm getting skinny.

Size looks ok,from the reaction on the comments section of some sites I thought it was going to be huge..looks very manageable when compared to the 5DS!!

Rob

 

[aDam007]

Good luck shooting a Nocti wide open with subjects moving about

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A very appropriate comparison ... Leica & Hermes ... same target audience (by and large).

I shoot with all my M lenses all the time on my RF and I nail focus consistently while the bride groom are walking, dancing laughing etc. I also do it while I'm walking, crouching, leaning, falling into ditches and drains because I'm not watching where I'm going, etc.

Actually to be fair, I really mostly shoot with the 35FLE and 75APO. But I do and have used all three of my 50mm lenses (noct,lux,apo).

 

[aDam007]

Adam, what is the this "color banding" that you talk about? please show a sample or two to illustrate it. I have not heard of any lens being a source of banding in a digital file. Never heard of "color banding".

TIA.

I'm not in Singapore. I do not have access to my HDDs and thus no access to samples.
You're welcome to look it up. Maybe this was corrected in a firmware, or with Adobe updates. But as far as I remember it was an issue up until I sold my A7 and 35FE.

 

[aDam007]

I'm very very familiar with Leica DMR, M8 and M9 than I was out onto MF. After I left I honestly lost interest in Leica and mainly it was late product and such and the products just did not fit me anymore as well or they where late on the tech. Money obviously was a big issue. I can't do what I was able to do over 5 years ago my life and family dynamics which is health issues keeps me out of the luxury items. I have to think within budget and folks you know as well as I , Leica is not within a typical budget. I just can't be that much of a gear slut as I was. I don't feel though I am suffering in anyway real way either. It's a lot of money for that extra 1 or 2 percent. Anyway I see the allure but I do see where Leica blew it and that was the adapters they should be out immediately with release. They would give all the other system users a chance to swap immediately which would lead to more sales out of the gate.

See some of these things are what bugged me about Leica, it's a snails pace attitude that made it hard for a working Pro to just buy everything at once. Same issue with Sony too but Sonys A7 was a whole new concept which I understood.

Probably one of the most honest things someone could say about the SL, and Leica's attitude. I completely agree.

Actually it was a bit disappointing buying the Q28 seeing how amazing it was, and how fun to use it was. Then not being able to buy a Q75 or Q90 or etc.. For me it was to limiting. And for those who are still waiting for a Q, I can see the frustration as well.

 

[D&A]

Leica just announced two new T lenses:u
Leica quietly announced two new TL lenses: Summilux 35mm f/1.4 ASPH and APO-Macro-Elmarit 60mm f/2.8 ASPH | Leica News & Rumors

That sort of surprises me with the apparent slow sales of the T body. Interesting to say the least.

Dave (D&A)

 

[aDam007]

I googled it. I guess it's a thing if you're into weird lens tests. Meanwhile people are making amazing images with this lens and not doing pointless tests. :loco:

Yes, but as an early adapter of the A7 and 35FE it was an issue that showed up in a lot of my photos. Work photos, not tests.

Again, perhaps this was corrected with a Sony or Adobe firmware update. But I can't rewind time.

 

[aDam007]

Come on.. You have to admit this looks like a very well balanced match:

http://thephotofundamentalist.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Screen-Shot-2015-10-22-at-15.26.35.png


Not saying the Noctilux isn't gigantic. But the Batis 85 isn't a small lens.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Yes, but as an early adapter of the A7 and 35FE it was an issue that showed up in a lot of my photos. Work photos, not tests.

Again, perhaps this was corrected with a Sony or Adobe firmware update. But I can't rewind time.

Adam like I said in one of my post yea just have to ignore what Sonys A7 past is. They really where beta units. A lot has changed and no one will debate you on the menu, it's a kludge fudge. But I got it figured out really well now and these cams just take time to learn. No plug for Sony here but I know many had a bad experience before the new model so it's hard
not to forget.

 

[k-hawinkler]

The A7r was a stepping stone for Sony to get to the A7r2 fairly quickly, the SL could function likewise for Leica, no?

 

[Jorgen Udvang]

That sort of surprises me with the apparent slow sales of the T body. Interesting to say the least.

Dave (D&A)

My guess: A T body with a viewfinder will be next. I see several cameras appearing with the same lens mount.

 

[JorisV]

My guess: A T body with a viewfinder will be next. I see several cameras appearing with the same lens mount.

It has already been said in this thread. Give the T the AF of the Q or SL and a built-in viewfinder and it will be a very successful product...

Even as is I prefer it to similar products from Fuji and Sony...

Obviously it can also use the SL lenses although I probably wouldn't recommend putting that huge zoom on the T body :bugeyes:

 

[JorisV]

And for those who are still waiting for a Q, I can see the frustration as well.

Unfortunately +1. Leica really needs to fix their supply chain.

I went through the Leica Q pre-order process ordering on the first day of pre-order and waited for 2.5 months for the camera.

Leica does not provide any meaningful information to their dealers and therefore also the dealers cannot provide anything meaningful to you... Extremely, extremely frustrating...

Even though I might end up buying the SL I will with 100% certainty not pre-order it, I will buy it when it is regularly available in the stores, I am not going through that process again...

 

[ptomsu]

Here are the sizes compared:

The link:

Compact Camera Meter

If size and weight are the main criteria, Sony wins comfortably. It's much smaller and at around 1 kilogram weighs half of what the Leica and Nikon alternatives do. However, since I've already chosen the Nikon over the Sony, I apparently don't care to much about that. Important also is that the Leica lens has more reach than the Zony and is a stop faster at the wide end.

I remember an interview with a lens designer a few months ago, can't remember who, who said that by making a lens constant aperture, they always give away around one stop at the wide end. Zoom lenses are naturally faster at wide angles, but they limit that to make them constant.

The debate about this lens reminds me a bit of the debate around the PanaLeica 14-50mm f/2.8-3.5 for 4/3, a lens that I have and love dearly. It's a monster compared to the tiny 4/3 format, although only half the weight of this lens. It is however the best zoom lens I've ever used, always sharp corner to corner, regardless of aperture and focal length. And it's a great range, usable for interiors and great for portraits too. In reality, the only lens I need 90% of the time.

If I were to buy into this system, which would require financial luck of epic proportions, the three lenses currently in the program might be the only lenses that I need. One for general use, one for air shows and sports (if the viewfinder and AF can live up to that kind of use) and one for wide apertures. Most of the time, I would only carry two of them, and possibly an adapted telephoto prime. The Zeiss 21mm can obviously also be adapted.

I understand the argument about weight. Many of us are past 60, and I'm getting closer myself. Still, I don't have a problem with heavy stuff, and use the good, old 80-200 AF-S hand held regularly. Maybe Leica didn't target old folks with this camera, but see it as what they think the new generation of professionals need. It has the "modern look" to complement modern designer gadgets, and although many complain about the grip, it can't be worse than the first generation A7, which basically didn't have one.

Jorgen,

GREAT POST!!! The reason I quoted also the comparison image again! One cannot often enough see this comparison.

If you look at the SL in the middle, it is even small compared to the Nikon with the 2.8/24-74, which I shot for many years - maybe on a different Nikon body, but then it was a D3 and this is even larger than the Nikon camera in this comparison!

So actually this new SL is pretty comfortable in size, even with such a zoom like the 24-90! And I am very confident this lens is top overall! Also I still own a huge number of M lenses, including the beautiful and excellent 1.0/50, which would be great on the SL. I never could get friends with a digital M, because of the focussing issues with such fast lenses if used wide open in combination with AF. So using my WATE, the 1/50, 1.4/75 and 2/90 on the SL would immediately make a pretty complete system of the best glass available, although MF. But heck, I would not care, if the EVF is really as good as described! And for lazy times I still could use the 28-90 AF and for wildlife the 90-280.

This becomes more and more a system I always have dreamed of

Thanks again for bringing all these information!

Peter

 

[turtle]

Just bear in mind the photo shows the new Nikon 24-70 f2.8 VR, which is about an inch longer than the venerable regular 24-70 f2.8 G. Were that lens used, the D750 combo would be about the same length as the Leica, but about 250g lighter in the lens. This is my concern: the Leica is an 1150g lens hanging off a skinny body with sharp edges and no grip contouring.... a body with the same sort of front to back depth as an A7. To put this in context, my Sony 70-200 f4 G weighs over 250g less than the Leica 24-90 and is used on a commensurately lighter A7. I would consider the leverage excessive on this small body. While the SL is heavier than a Sony A7, it's no thicker really and that leverage will be there. Unfortunately, the grip does not look adequate to make that comfortable, though I will stand corrected if users reach different conclusions.

For those manual focusing M lens fans, I recall Ming Thein mentioning that there is no 'auto zoom' option in the EVF when manual focusing. If so, that would mean buttons and/or menus to come in and out of magnified view....

Jorgen,

If you look at the SL in the middle, it is even small compared to the Nikon with the 2.8/24-74, which I shot for many years - maybe on a different Nikon body, but then it was a D3 and this is even larger than the Nikon camera in this comparison!

So actually this new SL is pretty comfortable in size, even with such a zoom like the 24-90!....

Peter

 

[turtle]

Just an aside: I am not sure where you heard the bit quoted below, but I do not think it is correct. DxO measures the T stop of the Canon 50mm f1.2 L as T1.4. The 50mm f1.4 USM is T1.6, as is the Nikon 50mm f1.4G.

The Canon 50mm f1.2L does indeed let in more light than any of the other 50mm lenses and the sort of additional amount you would expect given the half stop faster F stop. There is no cheating going on that I can see.

The Leica lenses can be tested and their T stops ascertained. Assuming a T stop measurement is available, user can know exactly what they are getting.

:ROTFL: .... But ponder this.. Canon's 50L actually lets in less light then their 50/1.8 or 50/1.4 or any other manufactures 50/1.4 lens. They just "push" the ISO a bit without letting the user know to TRICK the user into believing they're getting better light transmission. So who knows what's going on with your lenses and their actual light efficiency.

 

[aDam007]

The A7r was a stepping stone for Sony to get to the A7r2 fairly quickly, the SL could function likewise for Leica, no?

No. Because the SL is a good camera as far as I can tell. But I'll be the first to BITCH if it isn't. And I'll link all you guys into my rolling review when I have the camera in hand next month when I'm back in SG.

 

[aDam007]

It has already been said in this thread. Give the T the AF of the Q or SL and a built-in viewfinder and it will be a very successful product...

Even as is I prefer it to similar products from Fuji and Sony...

Obviously it can also use the SL lenses although I probably wouldn't recommend putting that huge zoom on the T body :bugeyes:

True about all... But ponder this. The second the little Canon M to EOS adapter came out.. The most ridiculous pictures started surfacing with people going on about pixel density and zoom lenses. It worked for them. So why not for you

 

[aDam007]

Just bear in mind the photo shows the new Nikon 24-70 f2.8 VR, which is about an inch longer than the venerable regular 24-70 f2.8 G. Were that lens used, the D750 combo would be about the same length as the Leica, but about 250g lighter in the lens. This is my concern: the Leica is an 1150g lens hanging off a skinny body with sharp edges and no grip contouring.... a body with the same sort of front to back depth as an A7. To put this in context, my Sony 70-200 f4 G weighs over 250g less than the Leica 24-90 and is used on a commensurately lighter A7. I would consider the leverage excessive on this small body. While the SL is heavier than a Sony A7, it's no thicker really and that leverage will be there. Unfortunately, the grip does not look adequate to make that comfortable, though I will stand corrected if users reach different conclusions.

For those manual focusing M lens fans, I recall Ming Thein mentioning that there is no 'auto zoom' option in the EVF when manual focusing. If so, that would mean buttons and/or menus to come in and out of magnified view....

I'd find that hard to believe (auto zoom). Seeing how the Q does it.

Also, don't you hold your camera with two hands. I always stabilise my lens with one, and shoot with the other. And especially so when I'm hanging onto a zoom ring. I even do it when I was shooting with the A7 series cameras and the little 35FE. Habit from my M I guess?

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Just an aside: I am not sure where you heard the bit quoted below, but I do not think it is correct at all. DxO measures the T stop of the Canon 50mm f1.2 L as T1.4. The 50mm f1.4 USM is T1.6, as is the Nikon 50mm f1.4G.

The Canon 50mm f1.2L does indeed let in more light than any of the other 50mm lenses and the sort of additional amount you would expect given the half stop faster F stop. There is no cheating, no conspiracy and no smoke and mirrors.

The Leica lenses can be tested and their T stops ascertained. Assuming a T stop measurement is available, user can know exactly what they are getting.

Then DXO is wrong. Or Canon has updated their coatings since I had the lens.
Also as far as I know, Leica doesn't post T-stops. And I do not currently have the means of measuring it accurately. But can do so very easily when I'm back in Singapore.

 

[turtle]

You do hold with two hands when up 'in the aim' so to speak, but a lot of photogs hold cameras 'rested' with the right hand down by the hip. This becomes incrementally more difficult with big lenses, for sure, but its easy and comfortable with a 5D III and 24-70 L II, for example. I am not sure it will feel very nice with the SL and 24-90 tho. The 645Z has such an awesome grip I can comfortable do this is the 3kg 645z + 28-45mm combo. Holding cameras rested is no issue if you have just plucked it from your bag to shoot something. It becomes quite habitual and energy saving when you're on location for hours and hours, at least for me.

I'd find that hard to believe (auto zoom). Seeing how the Q does it.

Also, don't you hold your camera with two hands. I always stabilise my lens with one, and shoot with the other. And especially so when I'm hanging onto a zoom ring. I even do it when I was shooting with the A7 series cameras and the little 35FE. Habit from my M I guess?

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Then DXO is wrong. Or Canon has updated there coatings since I had the lens.