Leica SL (601) ..Oct 20th?

[mjr]

I never use straps or slings on my cameras and love the S grip for holding by finger tips down by my side, even with the 180mm, I have an advantage though having lost the top section of my middle finger right hand in an accident, means I can get all my fingers further in to a grip. The SL grip looks like a big slab, I can see it being very comfortable for down by your side, maybe less comfortable up in the firing position but as with you guys, I never shoot one handed anyway and my left hand is holding the weight, my right hand is controlling things.

Proof will be holding it for sure, I haven't made a decision yet, need a week with it to know if it's for me.

Mat

 

[jonoslack]

Heavy lenses and bodies have their place. Small lenses and bodies have their place. However, they need to be matched to make any sense at all. My issue with the SL is not that the body is 820g (so is a D810, roughly) or that the 24-90mm is 1150g (so is the new Nikon 24-70 f2.8 VR, roughly). It is that the SL seems to be a poorly designed 'handle' for the weight of lenses designed for it and of which we are aware at this stage.

Had Leica been thinking straight, they would have matched the design of the body to the lenses. That said, very large, exceptional zooms make sense when you need to milk a 36MP sensor, but less so for 24MP. Were this camera a 50MP monster, the size of the lenses would make more sense, but at 24MP, Leica has ended up with large lenses and a body that seems ill suited to carry them.

Hrumph
Well, having done full day events with the camera carried mostly in one hand, and toted it around mountains in Crete for 3 weeks I'd say that the camera actually handles extremely well - I liked the grip, and I'd contend that whilst indented grips are great as long as they match your hands - they can be negative if they don't. The apparent sharp corners never caused me any grief.

all the best

 

[mjr]

Jono

Difficult without full LR support for the SL yet but any views on ISO performance compared with the S? I find the 007 produces superb files at ISO800, what's your view on the SL at 1600 and on?

Thanks

Mat

 

[Vivek]

Adam like I said in one of my post yea just have to ignore what Sonys A7 past is. They really where beta units. A lot has changed and no one will debate you on the menu, it's a kludge fudge. But I got it figured out really well now and these cams just take time to learn. No plug for Sony here but I know many had a bad experience before the new model so it's hard
not to forget.

The A7r was a stepping stone for Sony to get to the A7r2 fairly quickly, the SL could function likewise for Leica, no?

Some (read = me) will NEVER forget nor forgive. It has been an education (albeit expensive).

I say NO to any new Sony purchases however astounding the claims may be.

The facts are after a few months the same stuff is there nearly at ~50% suggested debut retail price.
(that makes a Leica purchase even more difficult, mind you!)

A stepping stone? I refuse to be one.

 

[ptomsu]

Just bear in mind the photo shows the new Nikon 24-70 f2.8 VR, which is about an inch longer than the venerable regular 24-70 f2.8 G. Were that lens used, the D750 combo would be about the same length as the Leica, but about 250g lighter in the lens. This is my concern: the Leica is an 1150g lens hanging off a skinny body with sharp edges and no grip contouring.... a body with the same sort of front to back depth as an A7. To put this in context, my Sony 70-200 f4 G weighs over 250g less than the Leica 24-90 and is used on a commensurately lighter A7. I would consider the leverage excessive on this small body. While the SL is heavier than a Sony A7, it's no thicker really and that leverage will be there. Unfortunately, the grip does not look adequate to make that comfortable, though I will stand corrected if users reach different conclusions.

For those manual focusing M lens fans, I recall Ming Thein mentioning that there is no 'auto zoom' option in the EVF when manual focusing. If so, that would mean buttons and/or menus to come in and out of magnified view....

I hear you and I cannot tell from my own experience how the SL might handle with the 24-90. But what I can say, I rarely would hold the cam/lens combination only via the grip, but during shooting definitely with both hands. And then a larger lens is rather an advantage from my experience that a smaller and lighter one.

Just for carrying this could be different, but I have to handle it myself (hopefully next week in Leica Store Vienna) and then I can tell better.

 

[Hulyss Bowman]

Anyway, who care about the zooms here ?? I just ask because most of Leica users I know use prime lenses. The zooms have been released for the mass, for the newcomer in the brand (or the guy who really NEED it). The actual Leica users KNOW that they will use primes on it so the bulkiness isn't a problem anymore.

 

[ptomsu]

Anyway, who care about the zooms here ?? I just ask because most of Leica users I know use prime lenses. The zooms have been released for the mass, for the newcomer in the brand (or the guy who really NEED it). The actual Leica users KNOW that they will use primes on it so the bulkiness isn't a problem anymore.

I do agree to that one, as most times I would use the SL with primes.

But there are the situations like wildlife, where at least I prefer a zoom lens. Think about sitting in a safari vehicle and not able to walk around in the bush, then a zoom becomes necessary at least for my photography style. You never know how an animal moves and when they come closer, it is great if you just can zoom out without having to change lenses or camera/lens combinations and vice versa if the move away.

While the upcoming 90-280 is not my wildlife dream lens (that would be something like 80-400 or 200-500), it is at least a good staring point and maybe a lens I could nicely live with. And maybe they will bring a TC1.4 in some time (although I fear that might be rather years then months).

What I am thinking more and more is to use the SL as my one FF camera where I can mount all my M glass and achieve great results and also of course native SL lenses once they become available. And there might also be some R lenses available second hand over time, which I could see to rebut again, like the excellent 2.8/180 APO.

 

[Vivek]

Anyway, who care about the zooms here ?? I just ask because most of Leica users I know use prime lenses. The zooms have been released for the mass, for the newcomer in the brand (or the guy who really NEED it). The actual Leica users KNOW that they will use primes on it so the bulkiness isn't a problem anymore.

Most "actual" Leica users are using other brands. The "masses" were never with Leica. There are no "newcomers".

A prime is a dinner served at a Leica product launch. :ROTFL:

 

[Hulyss Bowman]

Most "actual" Leica users are using other brands. The "masses" were never with Leica. There are no "newcomers".

A prime is a dinner served at a Leica product launch. :ROTFL:

You are trolling, Sir.

 

[Vivek]

You are trolling, Sir.

No, it is the reality, Hulyss.

 

[fotografz]

Whew, 45 pages of comments already.

It occurred to me that this is the type of camera that Canon and Nikon should have been making by now. A Mirror-less DSLR replacement with a EVF that rivals an OVF for clarity.

Personally, tiny little cameras fit for "girly man" hands hasn't worked for me very well All the complex Lilliputian buttons haphhazardly scattered around something the size of pack of gigs just invites screw-ups when hectically working with sausage digits ... especially in low light:ROTFL:

Admittedly, DSLRs got too big ... and I think Mirror-less Sony's are too small for proper FF lenses with faster apertures, or longer focal lengths.

So, for me, this is sort of the "Goldilocks" solution ... just right.

IMO, anyone that walks around for long periods of time dangling a kit from their finger tips is asking for it. Moving from hip to eye without some sort of support is a recipe for Tendinitis. I moved to using a Camadpter dual lug Arca QR with a hand-strap and wide, spongy shoulder strap to shoot weddings after too many "bump and fumbles" from elbowing bystanders and staggering party animals, and 8 straight hours of "lift to eye" inflammation:facesmack:

Different strokes for different folks.

- Marc

 

[turtle]

Surely the zooms matter, because they are the only native lenses expected to be available in the next 12 months. The first native prime (50mm f1.4) won't be with us until late 2016 and not a single other prime has been laid out, or given a timeline. I'd therefore say the zooms are pretty important. After all, unless you own S lenses, neither M nor R lenses will give you access to the super-quick AF being touted.

Anyway, who care about the zooms here ?? I just ask because most of Leica users I know use prime lenses. The zooms have been released for the mass, for the newcomer in the brand (or the guy who really NEED it). The actual Leica users KNOW that they will use primes on it so the bulkiness isn't a problem anymore.

 

[D&A]

My guess: A T body with a viewfinder will be next. I see several cameras appearing with the same lens mount.

The reason new T lenses surprises me is the relativrly slow sales of the current T body. I too envision a Q like body system with interchangeable lenses but the Q is full frame whereas the T is not. I believe if Leica is to invest in a small interchangeae af camera system, it would seem it would be based on either thr T or M mount but would I presume be full frame. I believe thats what most Leica users wxpect and want.

Dave (D&A)

 

[turtle]

And this is my concern for Leica. Should Canon or Nikon manage to produce a top end mirrorless FF camera (in the next year) with access to their huge stable of lenses, the SL's reason for being starts to look precarious. That said, Canon doesn't seem capable of moving beyond ten year old sensor technology, or polishing their 'M' despite three generations, so Leica may be OK.

DSLRs are kinda big and fat in some cases, but all credit to Nikon for the D750, which is quite compact and light for its spec. The 5DS is also no bigger or heavier than the last few generations of Canon. With the D750 and 7D II, I'd say there is even less of a reason to need a D4S/1DX behemoth than ever before, which is nice.

I'd like to see Leica get modestly sized SL 35mm f2 and 85mm f1.4/1.8 (or 90/100mm f2) lenses on the roadmap pronto. I really think it would help sell the camera - even more than a huge 50mm f1.4, which seems overkill for 24MP to my eyes.

Whew, 45 pages of comments already.

It occurred to me that this is the type of camera that Canon and Nikon should have been making by now. A Mirror-less DSLR replacement with a EVF that rivals an OVF for clarity....Admittedly, DSLRs got too big ... and I think Mirror-less Sony's are too small for proper FF lenses with faster apertures, or longer focal lengths.
- Marc

 

[JohnBrew]

1) Colors typical of Leica without having to spend HOURS getting the colors the way I want. (Yes my brain is tuned to Leica colors, my fault)

One of the best reasons to buy any Leica, IMO.

 

[algrove]

Unfortunately +1. Leica really needs to fix their supply chain.

I went through the Leica Q pre-order process ordering on the first day of pre-order and waited for 2.5 months for the camera.

Leica does not provide any meaningful information to their dealers and therefore also the dealers cannot provide anything meaningful to you... Extremely, extremely frustrating...

Even though I might end up buying the SL I will with 100% certainty not pre-order it, I will buy it when it is regularly available in the stores, I am not going through that process again...

Your story reminds me of the recent S-007 where they announce it at September 2014 Photokina and it becomes available 11 months later which means in this marketplace it is behind the technological power curve even further. Your post also reminds me of the M-R adapter for the M240 which was announced at Photokina 2012 (I held one there so I knew they existed) and it finally was released to us 15 months later!

 

[JohnBrew]

IMO, anyone that walks around for long periods of time dangling a kit from their finger tips is asking for it. Moving from hip to eye without some sort of support is a recipe for Tendinitis. I moved to using a Camadpter dual lug Arca QR with a hand-strap and wide, spongy shoulder strap to shoot weddings after too many "bump and fumbles" from elbowing bystanders and staggering party animals, and 8 straight hours of "lift to eye" inflammation:facesmack:
- Marc

Note: Apologies for this Off topic post

Marc, I would love to see an image of your strap kit or know where you purchased it as I do suffer from tendinitis and my 810/Otus combo exacerbates the problem mightily.

Back on topic: After Ming's comments on the grip and seeing the pictures of the SL, I do wonder why the grip has such a sharp return on the inside. It seems to me that the inside curve should closer match the outside curve and would be more comfortable. If I have hands like Ming's (who knows?) then it becomes a problem. But, irregardless, 24mp (is this the same sensor as my M-P?) just isn't enough for a new high-end body at this time - 50 would have knocked it out of the park.

 

[Paratom]

I wonder what some guys expect.
A fullframe camera with lenses in the size of T lenses but constant f 2.8?The internet has critcized Leica many times for the slow x vario lens and for the slow T- standard zoom.
So I guess Leica focus more on speed than on size for the SL lenses.
For me? I rather have a little slower lenses in a little smaller size.
so I agree and hope for some f2.0 primes for the SL.

 

[turtle]

Goodness - and for an adaptor too.

We all recognise that our digital cameras will gradually become out of date and often we don't care and keep using them for years. However, ideally, 'outdatedness' should not be too glaring at the time of receipt. Whereas Leica can get away with it with a M model (no direct competitors and its a platform laden with idiosyncrasies anyway), I don't think Leica has anywhere near that sort of leeway with the SL and S lines.

Without an appropriate lens roadmap at the time of release, I fear that many who might otherwise have adopted the SL won't, simply because they have no idea where it will go (how can anyone say what the SL system truly 'is' at this point - we simply have no idea). Poor initial sales would then impact what the system could have become. After goofing up the T, ending up well behind the curve on the S007, I am surprised by Leica with the SL. I fear they are spreading themselves far too thinly, resulting in an inability to really decisively deliver on any of them. While it may sound dangerous, I wonder if if the problem is that they are too afraid to put lots of eggs in any one basket. However, isn't that what the market wants: strong, enduring well thought out in-depth systems delivered on time? This is precisely what the SL isn't. Its one body and zoom lens, with another zoom 'quite a bit later' and one more prime 'a lot later'. This looks like an experiment and not a commitment. While the 'wait and see if they like it' approach might make sense for Leica, I don't think customers think the same way. Not at $12,500 anyway.

Your story reminds me of the recent S-007 where they announce it at September 2014 Photokina and it becomes available 11 months later which means in this marketplace it is behind the technological power curve even further. Your post also reminds me of the M-R adapter for the M240 which was announced at Photokina 2012 (I held one there so I knew they existed) and it finally was released to us 15 months later!

 

[Bob]

I don't think I have ever seen a camera system that was "complete" (for me at least) at the time of announcement. The nature of engineering is the art of compromise despite marketing rhetoric. If I as a photographer, were to wait until a camera system was "complete" I have really only three options.
1) go without a camera :loco:
2) Buy something new and wait hoping that over time I can add to the kit and have it approach completeness
3) Buy something that already fits into a broad line of compatible stuff (lenses etc.)

Since I happen to have a self full of Nikon glass, new nikons are a natural for me to update a system already invested. The interesting thing to me about the SL, all other considerations aside, is its ability to work well with M lenses. Although I don't have a shelf-full of them, I do have a few, so I already have an answer to the desire for small fast lenses at least at 35, 50, and 75mm.

As for price points, smallish manufacturers don't have the economies of scale that large ones do so they have little choice but to seek specialty niches or audiences where their necessarily higher prices will find a market.

Very unfair of Hermes don't you think pricing their birkin bags so high that they are out of reach for the average photographer
-bob