S006/S007 ISO performance

[Paratom]

As an amateur for me its out of range to keep S006 for lower ISO and S007 for higher ISO.

It would be a decision between replace the S006 with an S007 or eventually add a SL for higher ISO and keep the S006 (of course the SL would add other benefits, for example using Zooms)...I am a handhold shooter.

I also wonder (since 24MP would be fine for me)-if the SL with SL lenses (once they will be available)-would be close in IQ of the S-System (again-if 24MP resolution is enough).

Well, since I am on the S thread I assume the answer would be ...rather to go to the S-007.
I admit its my feeling at the moment as well.. specially since I really like OVF.

 

[mjr]

I love the OVF too, the 007 package is pretty cool but if the extra mp's aren't that big an issue then the SL seems quite compelling, most of what I do would be fine with 24mp too but I still feel the S offers me more personally.

I have some decisions to make very soon, just quoted on a big job that really needs a tech cam and movements, not sure what to do if I get it, feeling there may be another Phase 1 and an Alpa in my future, would need to thin the S kit down though, decisions decisions!

Mat

 

[MGrayson]

You know what you get if you take a 24mmx36mm crop of an S sensor? Exactly 24MP. The SL *is* a cropped S(007). You can see if it works for you by cropping your S images.

Interesting times.

--Matt

(The SL EVF is even shaped like the S OVF and, while not quite living up to the latter, is pretty impressive. Really, anyone who hasn't looked through an S, especially a glasses wearer, should try it and see what the fuss is about.)

 

[Paratom]

You know what you get if you take a 24mmx36mm crop of an S sensor? Exactly 24MP. The SL *is* a cropped S(007). You can see if it works for you by cropping your S images.

Interesting times.

--Matt

I have used a Q for 2 weeks and think the color was for from what I get from the S006. But this was with older (=no fitting) LR profiles.
I also dont know how SL lenses will compare to (future) S lenses.
So its not that easy.

 

[anGy]

I'm in the same both as you Paratom.
I want to upgrade my S2. Using it is sometimes limited due to light conditions. I'm missing shots when light gets low (moving subjects, not enough depth of field because not enough light/bad high iso and AF not responsive/precise enough).
This system is great for slow photography on tripod or handholded when some sunlight is there. I simply love its rendering into those conditions. But I also sometimes am p*$off when the picture is a bit off focus or blurred because iso 640 or 1/125e of a sec. wasn't enough.
The S007 is the most obvious solution but it's a completely different technology and I'm so afraid to loose the S2 rendering character that I'm reluctant to consider it completely.
It's an expensive purchase too so the SL may now be a good option. Less expensive, 2nd body for my S lenses, light alternative with one or two summarit lenses. It's 'only' 24mp but I'm not sure I would need 37,5mp for higher than 320iso anyway.
If AF is on par with the S007, if MF gets easier with the EVF, if the SL+ S lenses balance is not too wacky it could be the right alternative (unless Mat sells me it's S007 & 24mm for a very good price
No S007 or SL will be available before mid-november in my country, so I suppose I just have to patiently continue reading your feedback. Thank you all for that by the way :clap:

 

[mjr]

Morning

There is one thing about the 007 that I don't like compared to the 006 and that is long exposure time, it has reduced from 2 mins on the 006 to 1 minute on the 007. You can do 1 minute at ISO200 and the file is extremely clean but not longer. I have raised this with Leica and although they haven't confirmed anything specifically, they did say that a few people have mentioned it and that a firmware update is due soon, no idea if that means they will do something about it. It is a bit rubbish for filter work, a lot of the time a 10 stop will give a shutter speed longer than the camera can handle.

Mat

 

[aDam007]

As an amateur for me its out of range to keep S006 for lower ISO and S007 for higher ISO.

It would be a decision between replace the S006 with an S007 or eventually add a SL for higher ISO and keep the S006 (of course the SL would add other benefits, for example using Zooms)...I am a handhold shooter.

I also wonder (since 24MP would be fine for me)-if the SL with SL lenses (once they will be available)-would be close in IQ of the S-System (again-if 24MP resolution is enough).

Well, since I am on the S thread I assume the answer would be ...rather to go to the S-007.
I admit its my feeling at the moment as well.. specially since I really like OVF.

If you like the S-006 so much. Keep it for the day. And get yourself a SL for dusk. Use the SL with adapter-S.
Once the 50luxl comes out. You can decide if you like it better then the S lenses or not.

BTW, in the meantime you can buy the SL zoom and save yourself from getting the S zoom.

 

[Ken_R]

Morning!

I've had the 006 over a year now and know exactly how to get what I want from a shot, superb camera! I've had the 007 for a few weeks and getting to know it better, I know a couple of people have asked about the differences at base ISO between the 2 cameras so as LR has now updated to include support for the 007 I thought I'd have a play and see what's what.

Please bare in mind I am a commercial photographer, I am not a professional tester, I don't care for it beyond getting to know a camera and how it fits to my own needs, my observations are based on how I work and what I want from a file, it may be helpful, it may not, please take anything I write as it is intended. You may not like what I like or work as I work so it's just what it is!

I have shown some high ISO shots, the 007 is the best camera I have used at ISO 800/1600 and has allowed me to get better aurora/night shots than any other camera I have tried. What I wanted to look at was what was happening at lower ISO's and whether that magic from the 006 has been lost in the move to CMOS.

I had a wander around my garden to take a few shots, what I am looking at here is the overall image, I'm not expecting any difference in sharpness, depth of field etc. just wanted to see if the "look" of the image would be similar. These are not controlled conditions, light changing etc. so the images are not captured in exactly the same light but they are same camera settings, same lens and mounted on a tripod. This is not art it's 10 mins in my garden at -2! Obviously nothing can be judged from a jpeg on the interweb so you'll have to take my word for the conclusions, I'm only adding the shots here as it would be boring just reading my text!

Dark shadow conditions..





Brighter backlit conditions and dark shadows.. focussed in different places but I'm looking at overall image feel not specifics!





Not very exciting I know but it's clear from the original files that there is very little difference, they do not process the same, white balance is different for one, you can't process one and copy to the other, wildly different if you do that. Printing 007 files at ISO 800 and they look completely amazing on my ipf6400 at 24 x 36, I can't print bigger here. I feel any differences are down to processing rather than what the camera is capturing.

I have taken to keeping wides on the 006, mainly because if I'm shooting landscapes I will tend top use a tripod, base ISO etc. and putting the 180 on the 007, walking around and portraits etc. the higher ISO is absolutely brilliant! A couple of portraits from last week (I haven't processed these in the updated LR so these are pre LR support) with the 007 at ISO 800..





And one at ISO 1600.



This may not give much info to most of you but maybe a few will find it interesting, nothing better than handling a camera and shooting what you like with it to help make your own mind up. For me, I will use either camera in normal conditions and the 007 in low light and be happy with files from both.

Cheers

Mat

Thanks for posting! The images look really nice. The S (006) holds its own which is amazing since its CCD.

Ever since I handled (used briefly in a studio) the Leica S (006) I have had it on my mind to get. It just felt so good to hold and use so fluid. Hard to explain and is definitely something that is impossible to perceive by looking up or reading about it in the internet.

Leica needs to get more people to get their hands on their cameras since a lot of what they are about can only be experienced not read about.

It is kinda the same with the PhaseOne IQ backs (well different since with Phase backs it is more about the functionality (backs and software integration) specially on supervised and/or tethered shoots).

With the Sony A7 series it is the opposite, they great on paper (awesome specs) and a very easy sell but when holding and using them it is a very different story. I absolutely do not like them at all. The FUJIs are somewhere in between. I really like how they feel but some specs leave something to be desired.

 

[mjr]

Hi Ken

The 006 definitely holds its own but only at low ISO as these shots were at base on both the 006 and 007, I'm more surprised that the 007 files look so nice compared with the 006. At higher ISOs there is no contest, the 007 is superb, the portraits were shot at 800 and 1600 and are as good as the 006 at 200.

If I didn't need higher ISO's then I would find very little reason to upgrade beyond the increased speed and responsiveness, that and the DoF scale which is so good for shooting at night, forget EVF for night work, if you're in focus you don't need a viewfinder at all, just point it in the right direction!

Anyway, some great cameras out there, the S is special for sure.

Mat

 

[fotografz]

Mat, thanks for taking the time to post your well balanced observations.

I think it is important to assess any differences based on actual intended use, rather than just what something can do even if you may not need it.

At one time when I was more involved in events and weddings, the 007 would have ticked off more boxes and allowed me to significantly restrict my 35mm DSLR kit to a midrange zoom at most, while eliminating a bag of 35mm DSLR primes.

What I've evolved to is far more applications working with lighting which every camera model in the S system is brilliant at when working with CS lenses. For low ambient light work I often found the quality of light was a barrier even with very high ISO 35mm cameras. Just cleanly recording it didn't change the fact it was poor quality light ... keeping in mind that I'm speaking about artificial ambient light and people as the subject in most cases. Frankly, if the S camera wasn't dual shutter, I'd have far less reason to maintain such an expensive kit.

Conversely, I found that with reasonable quantity of ambient light, and good quality of light, one can shoot higher ISOs with the S2 and 006 to increase the shutter speed without much penalty (true for most digital cameras).

To move from the S(006) to the S(007), would cost me at least $10K or $11K. That is a sobering prospect further complicated by the advent of the SL as a supplement to the S(006) for even more versatility, responsive handling, and even higher ISO performance ... with the SL zoom, S lenses, and M lenses.

Lots of great choices these days. Maybe too many ... :ROTFL:

BTW, I agree with your observation regarding lifting shadows and suppressing highlights. One of the merits is that dimensional feel that the S system seems to effortlessly provide via contrast.

- Marc

 

[mjr]

Marc

I agree with you completely, any camera has to be good shooting what you want to shoot, in the conditions you want to shoot, a camera can be brilliant at a small number of things and as long as those things are what you want then its perfect, for everyone else it might seem rubbish!

Up to now the S has been brilliant, I shoot a lot of studio and natural light stuff and can't find fault with the S but it doesn't do everything, I'm just waiting to hear on a contract I have bid on that needs very large prints of commercial and industrial interiors, the S isn't the tool for the job because I want wide T/S lenses and it's not possible on the S, I'm looking at an IQ180 and a tech cam for this contract and will probably have to sell some S gear to fund it, the contract is quite lucrative so may end up buying back in to the S after. As much as I wish I could have 1 system that did everything it just doesn't seem possible at the moment, I don't care who makes it, just wish they'd get on with it!

Mat.

PS, just buy the 007, you know you want to and it's only money!

 

[DucatiTerminator]

Marc

I agree with you completely, any camera has to be good shooting what you want to shoot, in the conditions you want to shoot, a camera can be brilliant at a small number of things and as long as those things are what you want then its perfect, for everyone else it might seem rubbish!

Up to now the S has been brilliant, I shoot a lot of studio and natural light stuff and can't find fault with the S but it doesn't do everything, I'm just waiting to hear on a contract I have bid on that needs very large prints of commercial and industrial interiors, the S isn't the tool for the job because I want wide T/S lenses and it's not possible on the S, I'm looking at an IQ180 and a tech cam for this contract and will probably have to sell some S gear to fund it, the contract is quite lucrative so may end up buying back in to the S after. As much as I wish I could have 1 system that did everything it just doesn't seem possible at the moment, I don't care who makes it, just wish they'd get on with it!

Mat.

PS, just buy the 007, you know you want to and it's only money!

Mat,

If you had to purchase one now (assuming you had neither and given today's prices), which would you choose between the S006 and S007?

Alvin

 

[mjr]

Um,errr, it's not an easy question to answer as my list of requirements may be completely different to everyone elses but...

If I was just shooting purely for pleasure and watching the pennies I would have an 006 and a few lenses rather than the 007 and 1 lens.

Shooting for work, 007 for sure, does pretty much everything I need to a point, that point being where I am now and needing movements.

It's an extremely personal thing though, some may prefer the Z, some a D810, some a Sony, some any other camera that works for them, as Marc says, possibly too much choice. Know what you want and then find a camera that ticks as many of those boxes as possible.

Mat

 

[aDam007]

Mat,

If you had to purchase one now (assuming you had neither and given today's prices), which would you choose between the S006 and S007?

Alvin

IF I had to pick between the two. For the type of work I do (tricky light, faster paced situations) I'd pick the S-007.
The S-006 is no slouch, and for casual shooting with no client demands, it's the camera I would pick. Colours aren't really the factor here, though I do prefer the JPG files from the S-006 (both look equally good, and very similar). More the slight ergonomic advantage to the S-006 (I like a physical shutter dial with hard speeds). And the price point (which is the biggest factor).

From scratch, I think I would just shell out the additional funds for the S-007.
As someone upgrading.. I'd probably just hold onto the S-006. Not worth the loss, when it's still a very awesome and capable camera.

 

[DucatiTerminator]

Thanks, Mat. Your answer supports the direction towards which I am leaning.

Extremely personal indeed, however, the cameras you mention by example are off the table for me, primarily because I would prefer to have the option for CS. I agree with Marc and you that perhaps there are too many choices. Being indecisive doesn't help either, LOL.

 

[JMacD]

Another handheld shot at 1/45,f 3.5 merge of three shots from the zoom at 30mm. ISO 6400.
Shot in the rain.
Yes I could have shot this on the tripod and lower ISO in the 006, but the vehicles would have been in motion.

 

[DucatiTerminator]

IF I had to pick between the two. For the type of work I do (tricky light, faster paced situations) I'd pick the S-007.
The S-006 is no slouch, and for casual shooting with no client demands, it's the camera I would pick. Colours aren't really the factor here, though I do prefer the JPG files from the S-006 (both look equally good, and very similar). More the slight ergonomic advantage to the S-006 (I like a physical shutter dial with hard speeds). And the price point (which is the biggest factor).

From scratch, I think I would just shell out the additional funds for the S-007.
As someone upgrading.. I'd probably just hold onto the S-006. Not worth the loss, when it's still a very awesome and capable camera.

Thanks for your input, Adam. I have neither at the moment, have no immediate NEED for either as I'm not a working pro, but have this MFD itch I just gotta scratch if you know what I mean. I do have enough paid gigs that I can justify the purchase in a sense (it would take a while), but I'm honest enough with myself that this would be more WANT than NEED. I've seen the S-006 for prices I can almost kick myself for not pursuing, and as Mat mentioned, having one and a few lenses certainly sounds more appealing than a S-007 with one lens. I'm sure I'd be more than happy with either one, however, it's nice to hear from those who are using them in a more serious capacity than I likely ever will.