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Leica M[262]

bradhusick

Active member
My how we all adjust our expectations upward so quickly! It was just recently that we all applauded Leica for the "new" M240 and all the improvements over the M9 (although some still prefer the M9). The comedian Louis CK captures our fickle nature perfectly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFsOUbZ0Lr0 Believe me, it's worth the 3 minutes to watch it.

Now we are hearing, "Don't buy the M262 because it has the "old" M240 sensor and that's far inferior to the new Q or SL sensor." It makes it sound as if it's impossible to take great photos with an M9 or M240.

If Leica had put the Q or SL sensor in the M262 they would have had to price it above the M240, and that goes counter to the goal of making Leica cameras within the reach of more people.

If I worked for Leica product planning I would create a $2500 Leica M body. The increased lens sales would more than offset the lower entry point and create a growth path for many users. This assumes Leica has the capacity to produce more lenses.

So for now, I applaud Leica for moving in the right direction and I don't believe buying an M262 is a bad financial or photographic decision. Film didn't get better every 6 months yet we kept buying cameras for 100 years.

Time to go take more photos.
 

Paratom

Well-known member
From the few weeks I have used the Q I dont think that I prefer Q color over M color.

I really dont feel any need for an M upgrade except maybe a little smaller size and it would be nice to use the visoflex instead of vf2 for the few times one needs an evf.
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
Precisely Ashwin. If they used the Q (or possibly SL) sensor, this would be an interesting but unexpected development of what appears to me to be the CMOS equivelent of the Leica M-E. but with the M240 CMOS sensor. For those who prefer the M9 type output, even the operational advances of this new camera may not be enough to convience them to give up their M9.
I continue to be perplexed at what people don't like about the M/M-P typ 240 sensor. To my eye, these cameras produce significantly better resolution, less moire, and far more accurate white balance and colors out of camera than anything out of the M9. They have another two stops worth of sensitivity too.

With the M9, the only way I'd work was to use raw files that I massaged with my own custom camera calibration profile. With the M-P, I can often produce B&W or Color JPEGs in-camera that are simply done, ready to deliver.

Enlighten me, please.

G

Not selling the M-P. Not. Like it a heck of a lot.

- - - Updated - - -

...
Time to go take more photos.
Packing the Summilux-R 50, the Elmar-R 180, and the SL into my little bag and going for a walk in a few minutes. :)

G
 

D&A

Well-known member
Godfrey with regards to your post above comparing output of thr M9 with M240...I can only say I only shoot raw don't shoot jpegs), so thr basis of my evaluations between these two cameras is with regards to utilization of raw files.

Each camera has advantages when it comes to imagery (some of which you pointed out), but at the end of the day at base ISo and even up to ISO 640, my preference is for the M9. I am not alone in this. I have no illusions that Leica would ever releases a M262 body with its feature set and a CCD sensor, but if they did, that certainly would be a camera that would interest me greatly.

Superior dynamic range and higher ISO performance is only part of thr picture (no pun intended) and in many cases I am willing to trade some of the M240's advantages for image characteristics I prefer.

Dave (D&A)
 

xdayv

New member
live view, video -- 2 things i don't need, and this certainly appeals to some (if not a lot), including me. Kudos Leica!
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
Godfrey with regards to your post above comparing output of thr M9 with M240...I can only say I only shoot raw don't shoot jpegs), so thr basis of my evaluations between these two cameras is with regards to utilization of raw files.

Each camera has advantages when it comes to imagery (some of which you pointed out), but at the end of the day at base ISo and even up to ISO 640, my preference is for the M9. I am not alone in this. I have no illusions that Leica would ever releases a M262 body with its feature set and a CCD sensor, but if they did, that certainly would be a camera that would interest me greatly.

Superior dynamic range and higher ISO performance is only part of thr picture (no pun intended) and in many cases I am willing to trade some of the M240's advantages for image characteristics I prefer.
Well, I respect that you perceive an advantage to the M9 sensor.

I do not or I wouldn't have accepted the upgrade/trade-in deal for the M-P. I did go borrow an M typ 240 before I did so and made a couple hundred test photos with it before making my decision ... I saw no advantage to the M9 in imaging whether I compared raw or JPEG. There were no results out of the M9 that I could not replicate with manipulating the raw file, and there were things in the typ 240 files that could not be gotten out with raw manipulation (detail resolution and moire suppression).

I guess "Your Mileage Will Vary." :)

G
 

D&A

Well-known member
Even when it comes to the Leica Q, SL and M240, many have noted differences in output and often favor the look of files from one vs. another and they are all CMOS. Therefore you can imagine there are even more marked differences between the CCD M9 and CMOS 240. Of course we all know there are many other variables such as firmware as such.

Of course its possible to emulate the output (look) of one camera with another and in the case of the M9 vs. M240, sometimes its very close and other times not. Additionally how much work is involved to achieve this emulation is also figured into the equation.

Its both subjective and there are many other variables at play. I'm not alone in my stated preferences as others have noted. Its not a question of preferring raw output of M9 over CMOS....just over the output of the M240. I truly am impressed with the Q files but can't yet say much (one way or another) about the SL yet.

No right or wrong when it comes to visual senses and what one prefers as thats a preference thats very subjective. No different in audiophile music systems....opinions and preferences are endless.

Dave (D&A)
 
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iiiNelson

Well-known member
I continue to be perplexed at what people don't like about the M/M-P typ 240 sensor. To my eye, these cameras produce significantly better resolution, less moire, and far more accurate white balance and colors out of camera than anything out of the M9. They have another two stops worth of sensitivity too.

With the M9, the only way I'd work was to use raw files that I massaged with my own custom camera calibration profile. With the M-P, I can often produce B&W or Color JPEGs in-camera that are simply done, ready to deliver.

Enlighten me, please.

G

Not selling the M-P. Not. Like it a heck of a lot.

- - - Updated - - -



Packing the Summilux-R 50, the Elmar-R 180, and the SL into my little bag and going for a walk in a few minutes. :)

G
I will echo what D&A said and agree that it's just a matter of preference IMO.

I played with other people's M240 files and I took several of my own that did little for me in terms of the rendering/color department. I also feel that way regarding the images I see out of the M246 when compared to the MM9 as well. Simply put I don't like the CMOSIS sensor and what it does but I digress for reasons that I don't want to beat a dead horse as I moved on from owning a Leica M for now.

As I say in many threads - there really aren't any bad cameras these days but some are simply a better fit for others. The M240 didn't fit into my camera bag where as I lived with a M9 since 2009 until 2014 when I decided to commit to Sony FE (although it has its own issues separate from Leica ones.) I don't think that most will argue that the M240 is not a more responsive camera than the M9 but many bought the M240 and went back to the M9 after not loving what it produced.
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
... The M240 didn't fit into my camera bag where as I lived with a M9 since 2009 until 2014 ...
That's another thing I don't understand. I had the A&A half-case for the M9. When I got the M-P, I dropped it into the half-case and it fit perfectly, except for the cutouts for the different controller bits. It is at most 1mm thicker across the baseplate. Because of those things I had to order a different half-case for it, sad because the A&A half-case was very good and they didn't have an M-P compatible one as yet.

How could it "not fit" in the same bag? It's four ounces heavier (mostly due to the far more competent battery) and maybe the baseplate (and fore-aft portion of the body minus control bits) is a mm thicker. It's the same size otherwise...

It's okay if you leave me perplexed. I know which camera I prefer. It's obvious from the shooting history: I've had the M-P since February 2015, I had the M9 from January 18, 2012 to January 10, 2015. In all, I made 18,000 exposures with the M9 and on three occasions almost sold it. Since I obtained the M-P, I've made 26,000 exposures with it, bought two new lenses for it, and have absolutely no desire to part with it, at all, even with the new SL in hand.

Different strokes for different folks. :toocool:

G
 
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bradhusick

Active member
With all due respect, I think there have been enough threads on different opinions of sensors. Let's try to keep this on the M262 if possible. I know it has the M240 sensor.
 

iiiNelson

Well-known member
That's another thing I don't understand. I had the A&A half-case for the M9. When I got the M-P, I dropped it into the half-case and it fit perfectly, except for the cutouts for the different controller bits. It is at most 1mm thicker across the baseplate. Because of those things I had to order a different half-case for it, sad because the A&A half-case was very good and they didn't have an M-P compatible one as yet.

How could it "not fit" in the same bag? It's four ounces heavier (mostly due to the far more competent battery) and maybe the baseplate (and fore-aft portion of the body minus control bits) is a mm thicker. It's the same size otherwise...

It's okay if you leave me perplexed. I know which camera I prefer. It's obvious from the shooting history: I've had the M-P since February 2015, I had the M9 from January 18, 2012 to January 10, 2015. In all, I made 18,000 exposures with the M9 and on three occasions almost sold it. Since I obtained the M-P, I've made 26,000 exposures with it, bought two new lenses for it, and have absolutely no desire to part with it, at all, even with the new SL in hand.

Different strokes for different folks. :too cool:

G
Sorry for the confusion. I wasn't actually referring to the physical dimensions but rather fit into what I wanted the IQ to be like. I'm one of those people with "too many" camera bags so I'm sure I have a few that it can actually fit into. I'm one that appreciates some size and a little heft at times.
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
With all due respect, I think there have been enough threads on different opinions of sensors. Let's try to keep this on the M262 if possible. I know it has the M240 sensor.
Sorry for the digression.

If I had the SL and was thinking of adding an M now, the M262 would be the right choice for me. A bit less money, works brilliantly with 35, 50, 75 lenses using the rangefinder, and when I need anything more the SL does the job more capably. That is the pairing I had with Nikon and Leica for thirty-some years and it always worked extremely well.

But since I have the M-P which does have some additional capabilities, I'll just stick with what I have. If I'm going to spend any new lump o cash any time soon, it will likely be for a specific lens that I've had my eye on... :grin:
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
But since I have the M-P which does have some additional capabilities, I'll just stick with what I have. If I'm going to spend any new lump o cash any time soon, it will likely be for a specific lens that I've had my eye on... :grin:
1.0 Nocti ??? :)
 

asiafish

Member
I handled a 262 in Wetzlar a couple of weeks ago. I thought it was lovely, noticeably lighter, love the notch and the black chrome. If I didn't sometimes like to use LV with wides I'd be very tempted.

I'm sure it'll make lots of people very happy
If I ever did decide to move to the M246 Monochrom, the M262 would be the color companion of choice.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
My M Saga : -)

I've been without a color M camera since selling my M9P a few years ago. I've happily soldiered on with a MM9, and did the occasional M lens color work with a Sony A9R ... a camera as foreign to the rangefinder method as one can get IMHO, and semi-useless with a few of my favorite M lenses.

I was on track to upgrade the A7R to the A7R-II ... a camera I have already handled, and have access to for further testing ... the biggest improvement not being the "excessive for my applications" 43 meg sensor, but instead a tamed shutter and much better control of lag time when shooting decisive moment images.

However, it still IS NOT a rangefinder methodology, a rangefinder way of seeing, or the M rangefinder operational simplicity I prefer.

Then comes this.

This new M offering seems to be a nice alternative to the proliferation of blatant geek-cams. Perhaps a bit closer to the rangefinder way of making photos that many like myself grew up on?

While the CCD/CMOS sensor issue has indeed been beaten to death, (and I was one VERY vocal critic of the M240 with CMOSIS sensor), it appears to have mellowed with age. More recent M240 work now seems much more in line with my own personal expectations in terms of image qualities. Notably, Thorsten Overgaard and Jono (among others) seem to have it down pat, which is encouraging.

So, for $2K more than the Sony, I can get back to a more preferred method of making certain types of images with all of my M lenses ... sans the stuff I'd never use while doing those photos anyway.

Don't care what might be coming next year ... all I ever wanted was a digital M7, and this seems pretty darned close to being that. Then I'd be set for a loooooong time.

- Marc

Oh, BTW, I don't understand the notion that everyone knows what a Leica is when working in public ... unless those folks are shooting amongst a bunch of other "up there" 1% photographers:rolleyes:

IMO, stealth has less to do with the camera used as it does how one conducts themselves while shooting candidly. Personally, I've only had one person take note of a M8 while shooting in NYC ... I wasn't actually shooting a pic of them, but they were standing near me and quipped that it was nice to see an old antique camera still being used ... and were subsequently shocked that it was actually a digital camera.
 

DaveS

Active member
Re: Leica M[262] - Shutter sound examples anywhere?

Hi all,

Has anyone heard the shutter sound on this new model, or is there any videos online comparing it? This is one feature that would interest me, but I haven't heard (pun intended) anything on line about the actual noise/sound. How quiet is quiet on this one...

thanks all,
Dave
 
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