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Thread: Leica M[262]

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    Leica M[262]

    I see in my email an announcement -- the rumor monitors who noticed that Leica had registered the trademark M[262] in Korea were right. From the material that is linked the idea is clear -- strip out the LV, strip out the video, forget the frame lever (sigh!) and reduce the price by 1000 EUR. Not such a bad idea. No ship date in the material that I linked to, or at least I didn't find it.

    scott
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    Re: Leica M[262]


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    Re: Leica M[262]

    Who is it for?

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    Re: Leica M[262]

    Quote Originally Posted by ceh View Post
    Leica Miami shows that it also comes with the Adobe RGB.

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    Re: Leica M[262]

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Who is it for?
    Well, it's for the people who have bought their SL's and no longer need liveview and video on their M's.

    scott
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    Re: Leica M[262]

    DNG gives you any color space your Post Process could desire.

    Top plate is aluminum ... bye bye brass.

    Bob

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    Re: Leica M[262]

    Quote Originally Posted by scott kirkpatrick View Post
    Well, it's for the people who have bought their SL's and no longer need liveview and video on their M's.

    scott
    I thought the "concept camera" without a LCD fulfilled that?

    Is this an upgrade for the M-E, perhaps?
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    Re: Leica M[262]

    The 12% off promotion they are currently running on some other cameras would make this 262 almost irresistible.

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    Re: Leica M[262]

    Would I be in the market for an M, this would be it. No longer need LV (since SL gives you all of video and LV you need), smaller and lighter body and cheaper - exactly what the M should have been from the beginning.
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    Re: Leica M[262]

    oh, no! i sense another "having fun with..." thread coming
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    Re: Leica M[262]

    The M262 is a great announcement. If it's eligible for the discount it's a great deal.

    Now if they made it a little thinner it would be very tasty. Keep going in this direction, Leica!
    Brad Husick

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    Re: Leica M[262]

    As an holdout who still use the M9, I would definitely get this instead of the M240. I guess the frankenfinder will still have its use!
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    Re: Leica M[262]

    From the press release:

    For maximum discretion when shooting, the Leica M (Typ 262) shutter is barely audible – an invaluable advantage in situations where the photographer needs to remain unobtrusive. As an aid to this, the camera features a shutter cocking system that is considerably quieter in single exposure mode than that of the M (Typ 240), and enables a shutter release frequency of up to two frames per second.

    For my taste, this is a worthwhile improvement.
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    Re: Leica M[262]

    Quote Originally Posted by Oren Grad View Post
    From the press release:

    For maximum discretion when shooting, the Leica M (Typ 262) shutter is barely audible – an invaluable advantage in situations where the photographer needs to remain unobtrusive. As an aid to this, the camera features a shutter cocking system that is considerably quieter in single exposure mode than that of the M (Typ 240), and enables a shutter release frequency of up to two frames per second.

    For my taste, this is a worthwhile improvement.

    I would have believed it too. My experience tells me otherwise. Even if I am not shooting, the mere glimpse of an M (even the MM without the red dot) catches the attention of one and all and pretty much anywhere in this world.

    If one does not want to be noticed- ie., where discretion is of essence, the M will not cut it, unfortunately.

    Having said that, yes, quieter shutter is always welcome in any and every camera. I enjoy it very much in an A7s or a GM1 or the MM.
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    Re: Leica M[262]

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    I would have believed it too. My experience tells me otherwise. Even if I am not shooting, the mere glimpse of an M (even the MM without the red dot) catches the attention of one and all and pretty much anywhere in this world.

    If one does not want to be noticed- ie., where discretion is of essence, the M will not cut it, unfortunately.

    Having said that, yes, quieter shutter is always welcome in any and every camera. I enjoy it very much in an A7s or a GM1 or the MM.
    I agree that in this day and age, an M tends to call attention to itself. But I'm not so much interested in trying to sneak pictures without people knowing it, as in being able to photograph freely in a way that's courteous and non-obtrusive in situations where people are well aware of what I'm doing.
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    Re: Leica M[262]

    Quote Originally Posted by bradhusick View Post
    The M262 is a great announcement. If it's eligible for the discount it's a great deal.

    Now if they made it a little thinner it would be very tasty. Keep going in this direction, Leica!
    I doubt they can make the M more than 2mm thinner due to the required mount register, metering system, and sensor-shutter assembly space requirements, and that would take losing the LCD (which most folks don't want, judging from the discussions on the ME60) and redesigning the body shell*and electronics layout. The typ 240 grew a single mm in thickness compared to the M9, which was actually a big improvement as it stemmed from anchoring the tripod mount in the body structure rather than in the base plate.

    Of course, they could redesign the body to mount the lens flange on a protruding pedestal and slim the rest of the body around it by some amount, again necessitating a major redesign of the body and electronics to suit. The classic look of the M would change in doing that as a consequence, which you know would incite the usual opinion storm ... ;-)

    Would it really be worth all that development money?

    Other modernizations that have been talked about (such as: electronic rangefinder system, live view system, auto focus capability, adoption of the L mount providing M mount through dedicated smart adapter, etc) will change the M more extensively. In that transition, I could easily see slimming the body just as they have with the T and SL bodies. Those sorts of paradigm changes would be worth the development money, if that's the direction Leica wants to take the M.

    I guess that no matter which way they go, the opinion storm will follow. =8^\

    G

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    Re: Leica M[262]

    My big question is does this utilize the CMOSIS sensor or the sensor in the Q/SL. If it's the M240 sensor I'm not interes but if it were a rangefinder optimized Q/SL sensor then this is an interesting development.
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    Re: Leica M[262]

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    My big question is does this utilize the CMOSIS sensor or the sensor in the Q/SL. If it's the M240 sensor I'm not interes but if it were a rangefinder optimized Q/SL sensor then this is an interesting development.
    That's a good question for Michael Hussman over at the LUF. I'll ask it, if it hasn't been asked already.

    scott
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    Re: Leica M[262]

    Quote Originally Posted by scott kirkpatrick View Post
    That's a good question for Michael Hussman over at the LUF. I'll ask it, if it hasn't been asked already.

    scott
    My suspicion is that it's CMOSIS. ISO cut off is 6400, just like the M240.

    If this was the new sensor, they'd be talking about ISO 50,000....I suspect that they are saving this sensor (or its variant) for the next M....

    Like Tre, this camera would very much interest me if it were the new sensor, rather than the re-boot of the M240 sensor.
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    Re: Leica M[262]

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    I would have believed it too. My experience tells me otherwise. Even if I am not shooting, the mere glimpse of an M (even the MM without the red dot) catches the attention of one and all and pretty much anywhere in this world.
    Funny that, I've touted my M around France, China, Holland and Venice this year and only one person has mentioned it. that was on top of a mountain in Crete!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by HiredArm View Post
    My big question is does this utilize the CMOSIS sensor or the sensor in the Q/SL. If it's the M240 sensor I'm not interes but if it were a rangefinder optimized Q/SL sensor then this is an interesting development.
    Same sensor as the M240

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    Re: Leica M[262]

    Jono, as a new product tester, you probably developed (or have it inherently) mechanisms to keep away from looks. It just works the other way around for me.

    I am curious when metameric materials will yield that much sought after invisibility cloak.
    Last edited by Vivek; 19th November 2015 at 13:02.
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    Re: Leica M[262]

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Funny that, I've touted my M around France, China, Holland and Venice this year and only one person has mentioned it. that was on top of a mountain in Crete!
    ...
    I've been carrying cameras of all different descriptions nearly anywhere I go for many years. Very few people ever seem to take note of even the fact that I have a camera, and far fewer than that that it might be a Leica or other fancy brand name. When they do, it usually takes me by surprise ...

    G

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    Re: Leica M[262]

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Funny that, I've touted my M around France, China, Holland and Venice this year and only one person has mentioned it. that was on top of a mountain in Crete!
    Was that because of your scrap of black tape and lack of a red dot? Your absence from the forums here for the three months was fairly conspicuous.

    scott

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    Re: Leica M[262]

    No live-view = keep adjusting the RF mechanism and guesswork when using Summiluxes wide open. No-go. For me.
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    Re: Leica M[262]

    Quote Originally Posted by Godfrey View Post
    I've been carrying cameras of all different descriptions nearly anywhere I go for many years. Very few people ever seem to take note of even the fact that I have a camera, and far fewer than that that it might be a Leica or other fancy brand name. When they do, it usually takes me by surprise ...

    G
    I have the same experience. Although with the Leicas I'm likely to be asked if it uses film.

    scott
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    Re: Leica M[262]

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    I would have believed it too. My experience tells me otherwise. Even if I am not shooting, the mere glimpse of an M (even the MM without the red dot) catches the attention of one and all and pretty much anywhere in this world.
    + 1. When carrying my M9, I have been stopped in NYC by folks asking me if that is a film camera. This is in a city where cameras of all shapes and form abound. Mostly young females, one of whom insisted that I take pictures of her with my M9 and asked for my phone #.....

    In San Fran, a group of Jazz musicians remarked how wonderful it is to have a camera like the M9. No one ever asked me about my A7 so far - the only time someone spoke to me when carrying a Sony happened when I had a Nex-7 with 50'Lux (the guy wanted to know more about the lens).

    And then this female who bought a Canon 6D. I told her "nice camera". She screamed "Nothing is better than a Leica". I am not making it up.
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    Re: Leica M[262]

    Quote Originally Posted by jaree View Post
    + 1. When carrying my M9, I have been stopped in NYC by folks asking me if that is a film camera. This is in a city where cameras of all shapes and form abound. Mostly young females, one of whom insisted that I take pictures of her with my M9 and asked for my phone #.....

    In San Fran, a group of Jazz musicians remarked how wonderful it is to have a camera like the M9. No one ever asked me about my A7 so far - the only time someone spoke to me when carrying a Sony happened when I had a Nex-7 with 50'Lux (the guy wanted to know more about the lens).

    And then this female who bought a Canon 6D. I told her "nice camera". She screamed "Nothing is better than a Leica". I am not making it up.
    +2, I use Leica professionally, it gets noticed all the time, practically daily, even my super stealth all black M6TTL. Leica wants to be known for being a premium brand so they are known and very much noticed because of it.

    It's not as low key and unobtrusive as people would like to believe...they are most likely noticing it but not saying anything to you.
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    Re: Leica M[262]

    I always wanted a ME262.....
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    Re: Leica M[262]

    Quote Originally Posted by scott kirkpatrick View Post
    Was that because of your scrap of black tape and lack of a red dot? Your absence from the forums here for the three months was fairly conspicuous.

    scott
    Hi Scott
    I don't tape up cameras normally, but I thought the SL was a bit obvious. Nobody gave it a second glance though.

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    Re: Leica M[262]

    I handled a 262 in Wetzlar a couple of weeks ago. I thought it was lovely, noticeably lighter, love the notch and the black chrome. If I didn't sometimes like to use LV with wides I'd be very tempted.

    I'm sure it'll make lots of people very happy

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    Re: Leica M[262]

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    Funny that, I've touted my M around France, China, Holland and Venice this year and only one person has mentioned it. that was on top of a mountain in Crete!

    - - - Updated - - -



    Same sensor as the M240
    Thanks for the reply Jono... That's unfortunate for me. I guess I'll have to pass on this one since it's the same sensor as the M240.
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    Re: Leica M[262]

    Quote Originally Posted by uhoh7 View Post
    I always wanted a ME262.....
    Welcome to the jet age, at long last! Have to wonder whether somebody at Leica has a sense of (historical) humor...

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    Re: Leica M[262]

    With the aluminium top instead of brass I supposed Leica is not going to make a Lenny Kravitz edition out of the M262?
    Phil

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    Re: Leica M[262]

    Quote Originally Posted by fotoism View Post
    With the aluminium top instead of brass I supposed Leica is not going to make a Lenny Kravitz edition out of the M262?
    1-2 years out you'll be able to buy an updated top that already looks brassed as a special edition!

    Btw, this one just got moved to the top of my wants.
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    Re: Leica M[262]

    I'd buy the new Sony RX1R II way before this. Less moola, serious megapixels, and comes with a nice lens !

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    Re: Leica M[262]

    Quote Originally Posted by ashwinrao1 View Post
    My suspicion is that it's CMOSIS. ISO cut off is 6400, just like the M240.

    If this was the new sensor, they'd be talking about ISO 50,000....I suspect that they are saving this sensor (or its variant) for the next M....

    Like Tre, this camera would very much interest me if it were the new sensor, rather than the re-boot of the M240 sensor.
    Precisely Ashwin. If they used the Q (or possibly SL) sensor, this would be an interesting but unexpected development of what appears to me to be the CMOS equivelent of the Leica M-E. but with the M240 CMOS sensor. For those who prefer the M9 type output, even the operational advances of this new camera may not be enough to convience them to give up their M9.

    Dave (D&A)
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    Re: Leica M[262] or M-E[262]

    I think somebody at Leica must have been thinking of the Messerschmidt analogy. Otherwise they would have chosen a smaller model number since it has reduced function from the 240 base, or a number ending in 0 since it is so "wesentlich." I wonder what its code name was? "Max" for the SL indicated its objective well. I thought "Sartre" fitted the late summer marketing mysts pretty well, and in fact is a better match for the 262 than the 601. But Jono tells me that code names are now under the NDA, and "Max" must have slipped out by accident.

    But, distinguishing this M-E[262] from its illustrious predecessor is easy. Upper management positioning shows a real understanding of the camera's potential value. With the jet, (Wikpedia tells me), Willi Messerschmidt was reluctant to take resources away from his propeller-driven fighters, and upper management (G-----g and H----r) thought its incredible speed made it a long-range bomber when it was in fact a deadly bomber-killer at the time of Dresden, but a sitting duck, because of its poor acceleration and speed, when at altitudes below 20,000'. As a result it was more appreciated when the war had ended. I'd love to see one, wouldn't want to fly it.

    scott

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    Re: Leica M[262]

    Quote Originally Posted by Duane Pandorf View Post
    Btw, this one just got moved to the top of my wants.
    Be careful. The original ME-262 was the first aircraft to exhibit Mach tuck. Who knows what unexpected properties this one will have?

    scott

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    Re: Leica M[262]

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    oh, no! i sense another "having fun with..." thread coming
    It is an off putting header ‘having………’ I cannot make myself even to type it. I have never opened one and never will.

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    Re: Leica M[262]

    Like many things in life, products follow a bell curve for their life cycle. It is a common marketing strategy to try and extend the tail by introducing mildly modified versions of a product to wring the last few dollars from a product before its demise. We all know that Leica will be introducing a new M in 2016 but they need to get as much out of the old technology as possible before the new product comes on line and generates the new revenue stream. They intentionally left out any real new technology such as the Q/SL sensor, or a slimmer body or digital RF in order to not cannibalize Q/SL sales or new M sales should the new model incorporate the same sensor and changed body or RF mechanism.

    Nothing wrong with this strategy from a company's point of view but for the consumer that shells out this kind of money, it can be a costly mistake not to wait.
    V/r John
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    Re: Leica M[262]

    Quote Originally Posted by barjohn View Post

    Nothing wrong with this strategy from a company's point of view but for the consumer that shells out this kind of money, it can be a costly mistake not to wait.
    And this is the "cheaper" version!


    Quote Originally Posted by jaree View Post
    + 1.

    And then this female who bought a Canon 6D. I told her "nice camera". She screamed "Nothing is better than a Leica". I am not making it up.
    Yup, reality is such!
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    Re: Leica M[262]

    My how we all adjust our expectations upward so quickly! It was just recently that we all applauded Leica for the "new" M240 and all the improvements over the M9 (although some still prefer the M9). The comedian Louis CK captures our fickle nature perfectly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFsOUbZ0Lr0 Believe me, it's worth the 3 minutes to watch it.

    Now we are hearing, "Don't buy the M262 because it has the "old" M240 sensor and that's far inferior to the new Q or SL sensor." It makes it sound as if it's impossible to take great photos with an M9 or M240.

    If Leica had put the Q or SL sensor in the M262 they would have had to price it above the M240, and that goes counter to the goal of making Leica cameras within the reach of more people.

    If I worked for Leica product planning I would create a $2500 Leica M body. The increased lens sales would more than offset the lower entry point and create a growth path for many users. This assumes Leica has the capacity to produce more lenses.

    So for now, I applaud Leica for moving in the right direction and I don't believe buying an M262 is a bad financial or photographic decision. Film didn't get better every 6 months yet we kept buying cameras for 100 years.

    Time to go take more photos.
    Brad Husick
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    Re: Leica M[262]

    From the few weeks I have used the Q I dont think that I prefer Q color over M color.

    I really dont feel any need for an M upgrade except maybe a little smaller size and it would be nice to use the visoflex instead of vf2 for the few times one needs an evf.
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    Re: Leica M[262]

    I will keep using my M9. One beta tester experience for me is enough.
    With best regards, K-H.
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    Re: Leica M[262]

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    Precisely Ashwin. If they used the Q (or possibly SL) sensor, this would be an interesting but unexpected development of what appears to me to be the CMOS equivelent of the Leica M-E. but with the M240 CMOS sensor. For those who prefer the M9 type output, even the operational advances of this new camera may not be enough to convience them to give up their M9.
    I continue to be perplexed at what people don't like about the M/M-P typ 240 sensor. To my eye, these cameras produce significantly better resolution, less moire, and far more accurate white balance and colors out of camera than anything out of the M9. They have another two stops worth of sensitivity too.

    With the M9, the only way I'd work was to use raw files that I massaged with my own custom camera calibration profile. With the M-P, I can often produce B&W or Color JPEGs in-camera that are simply done, ready to deliver.

    Enlighten me, please.

    G

    Not selling the M-P. Not. Like it a heck of a lot.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by bradhusick View Post
    ...
    Time to go take more photos.
    Packing the Summilux-R 50, the Elmar-R 180, and the SL into my little bag and going for a walk in a few minutes. :-)

    G
    Godfrey - GDGPhoto Flickr Stream
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    Re: Leica M[262]

    Quote Originally Posted by uhoh7 View Post
    I always wanted a ME262.....
    Here's one for you, don't see this every day.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Re: Leica M[262]

    Godfrey with regards to your post above comparing output of thr M9 with M240...I can only say I only shoot raw don't shoot jpegs), so thr basis of my evaluations between these two cameras is with regards to utilization of raw files.

    Each camera has advantages when it comes to imagery (some of which you pointed out), but at the end of the day at base ISo and even up to ISO 640, my preference is for the M9. I am not alone in this. I have no illusions that Leica would ever releases a M262 body with its feature set and a CCD sensor, but if they did, that certainly would be a camera that would interest me greatly.

    Superior dynamic range and higher ISO performance is only part of thr picture (no pun intended) and in many cases I am willing to trade some of the M240's advantages for image characteristics I prefer.

    Dave (D&A)
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    Re: Leica M[262]

    live view, video -- 2 things i don't need, and this certainly appeals to some (if not a lot), including me. Kudos Leica!
    Kindest,
    Dave

    http://www.xdayv.com
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    Re: Leica M[262]

    Quote Originally Posted by D&A View Post
    Godfrey with regards to your post above comparing output of thr M9 with M240...I can only say I only shoot raw don't shoot jpegs), so thr basis of my evaluations between these two cameras is with regards to utilization of raw files.

    Each camera has advantages when it comes to imagery (some of which you pointed out), but at the end of the day at base ISo and even up to ISO 640, my preference is for the M9. I am not alone in this. I have no illusions that Leica would ever releases a M262 body with its feature set and a CCD sensor, but if they did, that certainly would be a camera that would interest me greatly.

    Superior dynamic range and higher ISO performance is only part of thr picture (no pun intended) and in many cases I am willing to trade some of the M240's advantages for image characteristics I prefer.
    Well, I respect that you perceive an advantage to the M9 sensor.

    I do not or I wouldn't have accepted the upgrade/trade-in deal for the M-P. I did go borrow an M typ 240 before I did so and made a couple hundred test photos with it before making my decision ... I saw no advantage to the M9 in imaging whether I compared raw or JPEG. There were no results out of the M9 that I could not replicate with manipulating the raw file, and there were things in the typ 240 files that could not be gotten out with raw manipulation (detail resolution and moire suppression).

    I guess "Your Mileage Will Vary." :-)

    G

  50. #50
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    Re: Leica M[262]

    Even when it comes to the Leica Q, SL and M240, many have noted differences in output and often favor the look of files from one vs. another and they are all CMOS. Therefore you can imagine there are even more marked differences between the CCD M9 and CMOS 240. Of course we all know there are many other variables such as firmware as such.

    Of course its possible to emulate the output (look) of one camera with another and in the case of the M9 vs. M240, sometimes its very close and other times not. Additionally how much work is involved to achieve this emulation is also figured into the equation.

    Its both subjective and there are many other variables at play. I'm not alone in my stated preferences as others have noted. Its not a question of preferring raw output of M9 over CMOS....just over the output of the M240. I truly am impressed with the Q files but can't yet say much (one way or another) about the SL yet.

    No right or wrong when it comes to visual senses and what one prefers as thats a preference thats very subjective. No different in audiophile music systems....opinions and preferences are endless.

    Dave (D&A)
    Last edited by D&A; 20th November 2015 at 22:41.
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