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Two different views on the Leica SL

Godfrey

Well-known member
I was very happy to have had the sensor stabilization in the Sony a7II for several photos, this one in particular:

http://www.wildlightphoto.com/birds/accipitridae/circus/noharr14.jpg

The shutter speed was 1/250 sec while the camera and 500mm lens were braced against the window frame of my truck which was being blasted by wind. I chose to use a longer shutter speed instead of higher ISO because I wanted to show the raindrops as streaks instead of blobs.

Aside from the initial cash outlay the lack of sensor stabilization is the only thing in the 'con' column when I consider an SL purchase.
Lovely shot, Doug!

For a situation like that (using a 500mm lens hand-held in modest light) yes: image stabilization is a major plus. Whether IBIS or OIS isn't relevant; either implemented well would do a good job. Obviously, you need IBIS if you want image stabilization with lenses that are not so equipped.

I have to think that "Shutter shock" is not so much linked to IBIS (some OIS-only Panasonic models show the same shutter shock as IBIS-equipped models) and more likely linked to very light overall camera bodies and less than perfectly damped shutter operation.

The SL is a heavier body (with an excellent grip and a large, uncluttered surface area that allows you to hold it securely but without much muscle strain) and the shutter seems beautifully damped. Leica does know how to design a shutter to minimize vibration ... they've been doing it for a bit. The two zooms currently known about will have OIS; the one that's being delivered now seems to work very well. I can't imagine that any 300, 400, or 600mm lenses built for it will not have OIS.

As always, it is what it is. If you want/need IBIS, the SL is not the right camera for your needs.

G
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
..
foggy and miserable also here, so no chance to do decent photography as well.
..
"Cloudy all morning, light sun this afternoon" here in Santa Clara, California is the forecast. It's still dark out, and 41°F (chilly) at present. By 9, it'll probably be up into the 48-50°F range ... Hmm, what lens should I carry for this morning's walk? Maybe the 19mm and 90mm, just to mix it up a little.

Whether there'll be any decent photography depends on me more than the weather, I suspect. If it were raining, I'd put the SL zoom on. :)

G
 

doug

Well-known member
Thats a great image. Do you think it would make any difference if it was taken with sensor IS or lens IS?
Wrong question. I don't have any OIS lenses nor is it likely I can afford an OIS 500mm lens. The Canon FD 500mm f/4.5 L is an excellent lens, about US$1200, and is stabilized when used with an IBIS camera. IBIS also means my 280mm f/4 APO-Telyt-R, 100mm APO-Macro-Elmarit-R and 60mm Macro-Elmarit-R are stabilized.

The 500 FD is also fully mechanical, which is how I like my lenses. I marry my lenses, I date camera bodies. I'm thinking the a7II is a one-night stand. IBIS in the SL would have meant the Sony would already have been sold.
 
I would have loved the SL to have IBIS for video purposes. I think I remember someone from Leica saying that having a moving sensor would/could negatively impact the sharpness of still photos that didn't need it, so they decided against it. I can't remember where I heard that though. I would imagine & hope as the technology improves there will be ways to lock the sensor down when not being used for IS, solving that problem. I think it will become standard on cameras in the next year or two. I think the reason the Panasonic gh4 didn't have it was because the technology wasn't there yet when it was introduced. I'm sure the gh5 will have it. It will be interesting to see if the next model T has it and if that design looks more like the SL, as opposed to the current T.
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
"Cloudy all morning, light sun this afternoon" here in Santa Clara, California is the forecast. It's still dark out, and 41°F (chilly) at present. By 9, it'll probably be up into the 48-50°F range ... Hmm, what lens should I carry for this morning's walk? Maybe the 19mm and 90mm, just to mix it up a little.

Whether there'll be any decent photography depends on me more than the weather, I suspect. If it were raining, I'd put the SL zoom on. :)

G
Godfrey,

you finally need the 1.0 Nocti - ideal for all light and all weather :)

Looking forward to come to San Jose again, not sure when this will happen! But at least then we could try out our lens arsenals :))

Enjoy and all the best

Peter

- - - Updated - - -

Wrong question. I don't have any OIS lenses nor is it likely I can afford an OIS 500mm lens. The Canon FD 500mm f/4.5 L is an excellent lens, about US$1200, and is stabilized when used with an IBIS camera. IBIS also means my 280mm f/4 APO-Telyt-R, 100mm APO-Macro-Elmarit-R and 60mm Macro-Elmarit-R are stabilized.

The 500 FD is also fully mechanical, which is how I like my lenses. I marry my lenses, I date camera bodies. I'm thinking the a7II is a one-night stand. IBIS in the SL would have meant the Sony would already have been sold.
This is the real advantage of IBIS stabilization.
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
Godfrey,

you finally need the 1.0 Nocti - ideal for all light and all weather :)

Looking forward to come to San Jose again, not sure when this will happen! But at least then we could try out our lens arsenals :))

Enjoy and all the best.

...
LOL! No no ... No Nocti for me, at least not in the foreseeable future. The Summilux-R 50mm f/1.4 is fast enough, and a lovely lens in its own right. :)

I had my eye on a very nice Noctilux-M 50/1.0 for a bit, but decided that I didn't want/need it enough. I bought the Super-Elmar-R 15mm f/3.5 instead.

G
 

Robert Campbell

Well-known member
The only conclusive answer to the weight/camera shake question would be to eliminate all other variables like particular shutter designs, grip surfaces, morning/evening muscle fatigue, differing tripod mount designs, etc., but a couple of empirical data points stick in my mind: I was able to hand-hold a heavy Leicaflex SL at shutter speeds 1 stop slower than the lightweight Leica R4s with comparable results, and the a7r's shutter shake problem is reduced by adding the vertical grip.
Indeed, any experiment would need to be carefully controlled; I'm a bit surprised that it never seems to have been done. Haven't we moved from 'expert opinion based' to 'evidence based' practice in many fields?

BTW, I checked the weights of several cameras:

Leicaflex, SL, SL2 770g

R3 780g

R4 etc 620g

SL (601) 850g

S2 1410g

M (240) 720g

EVF for M 30g

(All weights are rounded).
 

k-hawinkler

Well-known member


(Blush) :). I do realise that EFCS is an option - and that you can turn it off, I used it and liked it - but nevertheless it does cause issues, Sony and Leica just have a different approach (the Q has an electronic shutter option after all).
Why not spell out what the issues are?



Hi Brad
I've not read anything about it causing difficulty either - and I agree that Leica might easily have implemented it if there was time (although I've not talked about it with them as far as I can remember). Still, the shutter shock issue only seemed to arise with cameras using IBIS and it suddenly occurred to me that a wobbly sensor might not be entirely innocent.

Not so, looks like more spin to me!
 

ptomsu

Workshop Member
LOL! No no ... No Nocti for me, at least not in the foreseeable future. The Summilux-R 50mm f/1.4 is fast enough, and a lovely lens in its own right. :)

I had my eye on a very nice Noctilux-M 50/1.0 for a bit, but decided that I didn't want/need it enough. I bought the Super-Elmar-R 15mm f/3.5 instead.

G
I think this was a good choice!
 

doug

Well-known member
Why not spell out what the issues are?
Electronic first curtain (E1C) as implemented in the Sony a7II (I have no experience with other models having this feature) fails at shutter speeds faster than 1/1000 sec with certain lenses including but not limited to a certain non-native, fully-mechanical 500mm lens I'm using. How it fails is uneven exposure, the top of the image becoming darker and darker as the shutter speeds become faster. Since E1C makes the camera responsive enough for my use I'm effectively limited to 1/1000 sec or slower. This is my biggest disappointment with the a7II.


Not so, looks like more spin to me!
One advantage optical stabilization has is that it's an off-the-shelf component made by Copal. Not sure about sensor stabilization.
 

jonoslack

Active member
Why not spell out what the issues are?
There are several (Doug has explained one above) - I thought they were common knowledge - google it - you'll find lots about it!
I don't think any of them are particularly important, but they are there.

Not so, looks like more spin to me!
Well, 'shutter shock' needs to be distinguished from 'camera shake' - it's pretty clearly defined (and pretty conclusively cured with later Sony A7 cameras and with firmware in the E-M1) - but I'm not aware of any cameras without moving sensors which suffer from it (but I'm absolutely willing to be proved wrong - it was only a throwaway remark) - at any rate, both Olympus and Sony seem to have cured it.

This discussion arose around the weight of the SL and whether it had any impact on steadiness - Robert thought it didn't, others that it did. . . . .

Look at it this way (and then I'll shut up)

Sony brought out the early A7 cameras whose trademark was they were small and light, full frame and with excellent resolution - a real tangible step forwards.
However - the early versions were criticised for being very subject to camera shake, and with more lag than was desirable. To cure these issues they implemented IBIS and EFCS - and cure it they did - Excellent

The SL comes along, and it doesn't have IBIS or EFCS . . . and it's being criticised here for not implementing these technologies . . BUT it's not actually susceptible to shutter shock, or, it seems to me, to unreasonable camera shake, and the lag is extremely small (at least as good as the second generation A7 cameras). So it seems to me that Leica have solved these problems in different ways (perhaps by making the camera bigger and heavier, and by having a very quiet shutter), and there isn't much point in criticising the camera for missing technology which it doesn't appear to need. There are advantages in a fixed sensor as Godfrey has pointed out in terms of sensor cooling (which is relevant for noise), and of course, simplicity has some rewards. It suddenly occurred

. . . . But then there is IBIS - which is thoroughly desirable with 3rd party lenses and would be wonderful with R telephoto lenses - it's a really sad omission . . no question . . and before using the SL, just like you, I said I'd never buy a camera without IBIS again - but 3 months with the SL convinced me that in this case I can shoot steadily with M lenses, with the R lenses for macro, and for my fairly limited telephoto requirements I'll wait for the 90-280. So I bought the camera and kit zoom . . . . . . and I don't have issues with blurred photos.

I'm not criticising Sony or Olympus in any way (whatever problems they had in this area they have clearly fixed with new technology)- and I'm certainly not trying to spin - just to point out that the SL doesn't appear to need these esoterics to take steady pictures.
 

doug

Well-known member
IMHO instead of ticking technology boxes it is better to be interested in the resulting performance.
 

k-hawinkler

Well-known member
Electronic first curtain (E1C) as implemented in the Sony a7II (I have no experience with other models having this feature) fails at shutter speeds faster than 1/1000 sec with certain lenses including but not limited to a certain non-native, fully-mechanical 500mm lens I'm using. How it fails is uneven exposure, the top of the image becoming darker and darker as the shutter speeds become faster. Since E1C makes the camera responsive enough for my use I'm effectively limited to 1/1000 sec or slower. This is my biggest disappointment with the a7II.
Thanks Doug.

Well, I don't feel limited in that way. I use much faster shutter speeds with the A7r2's mechanical shutter with no apparent detrimental effect.
Jim Kasson has done extensive studies on the subject I highly recommend. 1/1000 s or there about indeed seems to be a good switchover point.
Of course, it would be nice if the camera could switch over from EFCS to mechanical shutter automatically.
 
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Arne Hvaring

Well-known member
There are several (Doug has explained one above) - I thought they were common knowledge - google it - you'll find lots about it!
I don't think any of them are particularly important, but they are there.


Well, 'shutter shock' needs to be distinguished from 'camera shake' - it's pretty clearly defined (and pretty conclusively cured with later Sony A7 cameras and with firmware in the E-M1) - but I'm not aware of any cameras without moving sensors which suffer from it (but I'm absolutely willing to be proved wrong - it was only a throwaway remark) - at any rate, both Olympus and Sony seem to have cured it.
Well...I can prove you wrong. The first camera that clearly brought shutter-shake induced sharpness loss to the fore was the A7r and to a lesser degree the Leica M used in live-view mode. None of these cameras have "moving" sensors.

Personally I'm not criticising Leica for not implementing EFCS or IBIS; as long as they can produce a body that delivers sharp images at all shutterspeeds with a mechanical shutter, all the better. What I'm curious about is how they do it.
Having said that, with Panasonic now also moving towards IBIS, I wouldn't be too surprised to see it in the next SL- generation.
 

k-hawinkler

Well-known member
There are several (Doug has explained one above) - I thought they were common knowledge - google it - you'll find lots about it!
I don't think any of them are particularly important, but they are there.

Hi Jono, the above comes across to me as mildly condescending. I am sorry to have to point that out.
Above, you yourself seem to acknowledge that reference to the issues with EFCS is a red herring.
By cavalierly stating about EFCS that "nevertheless it does cause issues" without stating what those issues are you seem to be employing the FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt) method, first perfected my Microsoft.
I am quite familiar with the advantages and disadvantages of EFCS and use EFCS on my A7r2 to great benefit. No need for me to google. Thank you.


Well, 'shutter shock' needs to be distinguished from 'camera shake' - it's pretty clearly defined (and pretty conclusively cured with later Sony A7 cameras and with firmware in the E-M1) - but I'm not aware of any cameras without moving sensors which suffer from it (but I'm absolutely willing to be proved wrong - it was only a throwaway remark) - at any rate, both Olympus and Sony seem to have cured it.

Sorry, Jono, but you seem simply ill informed about this point. For a beautiful shutter shock example with the no-IBIS A7r you need to look no further than here. http://www.getdpi.com/forum/sony/49470-a7r-why-im-keeping-3.html#post557838


This discussion arose around the weight of the SL and whether it had any impact on steadiness - Robert thought it didn't, others that it did. . . . .

Look at it this way (and then I'll shut up)

Sony brought out the early A7 cameras whose trademark was they were small and light, full frame and with excellent resolution - a real tangible step forwards.
However - the early versions were criticised for being very subject to camera shake, and with more lag than was desirable. To cure these issues they implemented IBIS and EFCS - and cure it they did - Excellent

Although I have experienced really bad shutter shock with my A7r I have never had a similar experience with my A7r2.
So indeed Sony seems to have that issue addressed successfully. But I rather doubt IBIS has anything to do with that.
Simply using the A7r2 on a tripod with IBIS off and EFCS on for shutter speeds slower than about 1/1000 s avoids all potential shutter shock and EFCS issues as far as I can tell.
For faster shutter speeds the mechanical shutter on the A7r2 seems to work just fine.


The SL comes along, and it doesn't have IBIS or EFCS . . . and it's being criticised here for not implementing these technologies . . BUT it's not actually susceptible to shutter shock, or, it seems to me, to unreasonable camera shake, and the lag is extremely small (at least as good as the second generation A7 cameras). So it seems to me that Leica have solved these problems in different ways (perhaps by making the camera bigger and heavier, and by having a very quiet shutter), and there isn't much point in criticising the camera for missing technology which it doesn't appear to need.

Jono, I have no reason to doubt your statement that Leica has managed to employ an excellent shutter in the SL. Congratulations!
Inquiring minds simply would like to know how it works in principle.


There are advantages in a fixed sensor as Godfrey has pointed out in terms of sensor cooling (which is relevant for noise), and of course, simplicity has some rewards. It suddenly occurred

Indeed I agree. The makers of cameras with IBIS have to work harder and employ more advanced technologies to keep their sensors cool. And they do, but it's still a challenge.


. . . . But then there is IBIS - which is thoroughly desirable with 3rd party lenses and would be wonderful with R telephoto lenses - it's a really sad omission . . no question . . and before using the SL, just like you, I said I'd never buy a camera without IBIS again - but 3 months with the SL convinced me that in this case I can shoot steadily with M lenses, with the R lenses for macro, and for my fairly limited telephoto requirements I'll wait for the 90-280. So I bought the camera and kit zoom . . . . . . and I don't have issues with blurred photos.

Well, congratulations on your choice of camera. It seems to serve you well. Your pictures prove that.
Your hands must be a lot steadier than mine. So tripod use or IBIS for freehand use is a must for me.
What I most appreciate about IBIS is that it gives me a stabilized image when manually focusing my Leica R lenses freehand.


I'm not criticising Sony or Olympus in any way (whatever problems they had in this area they have clearly fixed with new technology)- and I'm certainly not trying to spin - just to point out that the SL doesn't appear to need these esoterics to take steady pictures.

Well, for me IBIS, 42 MP, and an BSI sensor are not esoterics. I derive benefit from all 3 features.

It will be interesting to see which features Leica will implement in their R-SL adapter.
If the future adapter could automatically stop down the lens after it was manually focused that would be a tremendous advantage.
 

PeterA

Well-known member
People might be better conversationalists - if they understood that bench-marking products against a feature set ( including price) is not how many other people actually make decisions about buying tools. How a tool works for a particular person is the most accurate predictor of who is likely to buy or not buy a particular tool. Perhaps we may then have to put up with less purposefully crafted rhetoric - designed to insult choice.

To this end ( for example) the review pointed to above is a good review.

So I am looking forward to purchasing an SL - when it becomes available this year in Australia- because I already know I like holding it in my hand and 25 megapixels is easier for me to manage hand held than 40...or 35...but not as easy as 18 or less.

In fact the SL's greatest potential negative (for me) is its 25 megapixels and the inevitable compromises I will have to make when using it hand held - against this potential negative is the fact that we now have an EVF that makes using really fast M glass wide open a tad easier - and a new range of fast primes from Leica with auto focus will make it easier on ageing eyes again.

Yes - ergonomic arguments aren't as exciting or seemingly bullet proof in their conclusions - still it is the ergonomics of the equation that are always the deciding factor for me in a hand held camera. I will pay a premium for the amenity and the utility the ergonomics deliver - to coin an old fashioned engineering term- ergonomic considerations provide the 'go' / 'no-go' test for me.

Some may need to be patient and expand their world view to include those who place a premium of how a tool works in the hands of the user - and cut down on the shriek factor in these conversations.

The forum is poorer not richer if people insist on shoving their own prejudice and agenda down people throats - every chance they get.
 

ashwinrao1

Active member
Seems that there are far more than 2 different views of the SL.

I am starting to see the Sony v Leica deal again....it's a tried and true debate that has no reasonable end point....but does lead to many views/opinions/what-have-yous.

Please play kindly in our shared sandbox.
 

Paratom

Well-known member
Wrong question. I don't have any OIS lenses nor is it likely I can afford an OIS 500mm lens. The Canon FD 500mm f/4.5 L is an excellent lens, about US$1200, and is stabilized when used with an IBIS camera. IBIS also means my 280mm f/4 APO-Telyt-R, 100mm APO-Macro-Elmarit-R and 60mm Macro-Elmarit-R are stabilized.

The 500 FD is also fully mechanical, which is how I like my lenses. I marry my lenses, I date camera bodies. I'm thinking the a7II is a one-night stand. IBIS in the SL would have meant the Sony would already have been sold.
In this case I can fully understand your preference for ibis.
 
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