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Two different views on the Leica SL

lambert

New member
Wow, this thread is still going. Been out past the "back forty" and back again; I have no idea where all the bile and nonsense centered around this camera is coming from.
Perhaps an evil spirit has invaded this thread. Might a Huff Paranormal group session help?

 

Godfrey

Well-known member
The "hard limit" on the shutter speed is one of the better features of the SL. So many camera's don't do this and it drives me nuts.
I'd rather a grainy photo because I had to bump it one or two extra stops in LR then a blurry image.
On my other cameras, I just watch the shutter speed when light levels get low to prevent getting blurred images. What tricks me with the SL is that it always shows the minimum shutter speed according to the AutoISO settings, and that nets underexposure unless I take a moment to look at the exposure preview when I half-press the shutter release.

I recall one of my other cameras (maybe the Panasonic G1) had a universal hard lower limit on the shutter speed when in AutoISO ... it was always going to be 1/30 second. With a 40-90 mm lens, this meant that I was getting blurs and, after that, underexposure. I figured out an easy way to work that one.

I'll get it in time. The camera works so well 98.9% of the time that it hasn't been a big thing to navigate in my consciousness. ;-)

I was just expecting better from Leica. That's all.. It's not a bad camera, and I do use it for work.
...
I think that's called "Damning it with faint praise." :angel:

G
 

aDam007

New member
On my other cameras, I just watch the shutter speed when light levels get low to prevent getting blurred images. What tricks me with the SL is that it always shows the minimum shutter speed according to the AutoISO settings, and that nets underexposure unless I take a moment to look at the exposure preview when I half-press the shutter release.

I recall one of my other cameras (maybe the Panasonic G1) had a universal hard lower limit on the shutter speed when in AutoISO ... it was always going to be 1/30 second. With a 40-90 mm lens, this meant that I was getting blurs and, after that, underexposure. I figured out an easy way to work that one.

I'll get it in time. The camera works so well 98.9% of the time that it hasn't been a big thing to navigate in my consciousness. ;-)



I think that's called "Damning it with faint praise." :angel:

G


Yeah to be honest it has fouled me up once or twice already. BUT the meter turns red and it's pretty noticeable. And I like how it responds, more to what I hoped the past cameras I've had would do. So now that it does do this, I just make a mental note to check the meter.
Besides 90% of the time I'm shooting manual exposure as I like to keep things every so slightly under exposed. I'm finding it difficult to do anything with skin tons when I hit the exposure spot on. They tend to turn a weird peach color. Like the actual color of peaches, not the Crayola color, over here in Asia at least with the terrible Singapore quality of light. And then the highlights on the skin look bad, even when processing from RAW.

That and since no TTL... I'm using manual flash, so I keep everything manual for the sake of sharpening my skills and making my life difficult :D


As far as the false praise... Well it's an early adopter thing. It'll even itself out over time. Maybe a year. Just in time for the 50Lux-L.
 

baudolino

Active member
Heck, I think Leica should BEG profoto to co-develop a TTL-SL remote for Leica and the B1.
They absolutely should. I asked my S sales rep to do exactly this and also wrote an email to Profoto with the same message.
I think the B1 and B2 strobes are selling like hot cakes and the availability of TTL controllers for Nikon and Canon cameras must be a pretty strong argument to stay with those systems for many photographers who shoot events, weddings or any other situations where the people being photographed do not "model" patiently and you need to get the first shot exposed correctly, irrespective of modifier and flash-to-subject distance.
 

Paratom

Well-known member
Regarding auto-iso...
IMO one has allways one risk - if there is not enough light and the camera has reached both the exp time Limit and the ISO Limit.
If exp time becomes longer the risk would be blurred Images if the subjects moves, if the exp stays at the Limit there is the risk of underexposure.
An underexposed Image one could still save in post, a blurred Image not.
So for my taste I prefer the way it is solved with the SL.
Ideally one could define a function. For example stay shoter than 1/250 as Long as you are ISO1600 and lower, stay at 1/125 and shoter for ISO 1600 -3200, etc etc.
But that might be a conflict with the Goal to Keep the user Interface simple.

I use AutoISO in bright and medium light, if it is getting very dark I set ISO manually or at least one Needs to watch the best compromise between ISO / exp time and f-stop.
 

Paratom

Well-known member
Regarding Flash, Besides Nikon I have never been so happy with digital TTL Flash photography. Neither with Canon, nor with Pentax and also not with Leica M and S.
Often Auto works better if one has a good Flash.
But I think TTL should work better, it is not so important for me because I mostly prefer natural light, but if they promote a camera as a professional camera it should work well with TTL Flash.
Promotion and real world differs.:(
What I also dont like is that Leicas seels flashes from Nissin, Metz etc. for a premium Price without offering any additional value. They should rather allow Nissin to sell a Version with Leica contacts or sell the Flash for the same Price like Nissin.
:thumbdown:
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
Regarding auto-iso...
IMO one has allways one risk - if there is not enough light and the camera has reached both the exp time Limit and the ISO Limit.
If exp time becomes longer the risk would be blurred Images if the subjects moves, if the exp stays at the Limit there is the risk of underexposure.
An underexposed Image one could still save in post, a blurred Image not.
So for my taste I prefer the way it is solved with the SL.
Ideally one could define a function. For example stay shoter than 1/250 as Long as you are ISO1600 and lower, stay at 1/125 and shoter for ISO 1600 -3200, etc etc.
But that might be a conflict with the Goal to Keep the user Interface simple.

I use AutoISO in bright and medium light, if it is getting very dark I set ISO manually or at least one Needs to watch the best compromise between ISO / exp time and f-stop.
That's basically the strategy I've adopted as well. It works well, I just have to remember to watch the readouts and check the exposure simulation when I'm getting near the low light limits.

I also use manual exposure settings and a hand-held meter occasionally. When I do that with the SL, it feels like piloting a starship with astrolab and sextant. Of course, I can just guess and get the exposure within a fraction of a stop fast enough. ;-)

G
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
Regarding Flash ...
I mostly use manual flash units and a hand-held flash and ambient meter for flash work, mostly on tabletop setups. Or, if shooting a party or other gathering, I set up a couple of flashes with radio remotes on stands, then walk around snapping test exposures until I get a feel for the right aperture to use in various spots in the space (manual exposure on camera).

The only times a dedicated TTL flash seems really handy for me is when I'm working with a long extension for close up work, etc. I do that so rarely I haven't invested in any but one dedicated flash in the past 20 years (an inexpensive Olympus FL-36 that's worked with all my FT and mFT cameras).

Since I'm phasing out and selling off everything but the Leica gear now, I'll probably pick up the SF40 just to have one dedicated flash unit handy. How well it works is the question mark I want to answer first.

And I agree, re-selling Nissin flash units at a huge markup with no change other than the Leica flash protocol seems a bit over the top, just like selling the cheaply made SL remote for $200 when any third party remote sold for $10 would do as well if the connector weren't proprietary. You're basically paying $200 for a $0.40 connector.

But I guess they have to make their profits from somewhere. :facesmack:

G
 

dchew

Well-known member
I stopped into Leica Store Miami today. Tried the SL. That viewfinder is simply gorgeous. Leaps and bounds above the view through the a7rII. That is almost enough to tip me over. But no IBIS is a big deal, especially with my recent 180 R acquisition.

On the other hand being able to use the small Leica wides without smearing...

It sure is tempting.

Dave
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
I stopped into Leica Store Miami today. Tried the SL. That viewfinder is simply gorgeous. Leaps and bounds above the view through the a7rII. That is almost enough to tip me over. But no IBIS is a big deal, especially with my recent 180 R acquisition.

On the other hand being able to use the small Leica wides without smearing...

It sure is tempting.
The Elmar-R 180/4 is light and small, makes very sharp photos even hand-held at reasonable shutter speeds (1/200 sec and up).

My Elmarit-R 180/2.8 v1 is huge and heavy, as is the Telyt-R 250/4 v1, and either with a doubler fitted is too long for hand-holding for me, regardless of image stabilization: I use a monopod or a sturdy tripod. :)

G
 

dchew

Well-known member
The Elmar-R 180/4 is light and small, makes very sharp photos even hand-held at reasonable shutter speeds (1/200 sec and up).

My Elmarit-R 180/2.8 v1 is huge and heavy, as is the Telyt-R 250/4 v1, and either with a doubler fitted is too long for hand-holding for me, regardless of image stabilization: I use a monopod or a sturdy tripod. :)

G
It's the APO Elmarit R, but you make a good point: would I really hand-hold that often even with IBIS? Perhaps not.

At any rate, I really took to the SL. Time will tell if that is just GAS or if the SL really is something I could move to. The zoom is too big for me, and I suspect most native lenses will be the same.

Dave
 

scott kirkpatrick

Well-known member
It's the APO Elmarit R, but you make a good point: would I really hand-hold that often even with IBIS? Perhaps not.
Actually, Godfrey's talking about the earlier models, of which there were two versions. I've hand-held the APO Elmarit-R 180, but now that I think of it, I was using it on an Olympus E-M5 vII with IBIS.

scott
 

jonoslack

Active member
At any rate, I really took to the SL. Time will tell if that is just GAS or if the SL really is something I could move to. The zoom is too big for me, and I suspect most native lenses will be the same.

Dave
I was the same - but even with two 6 week 'trial' periods I was still hooked . . and bought one, and 3 months on I still love it. . . . and the zoom isn't too big (the crucial test is whether my 63 year old stick arms can carry it one handed all day - and they can).

- - - Updated - - -

However, I could easily put this camera to work today. All I need for weddings/event and corporate assignments is a 24 meg SL camera and this 24-90 zoom with Leica's new SF40 or SF64 speed light.

It wouldn't be a practical financial choice, nor a responsible one (being so new) ... but that never stopped me:ROTFL:

- Marc
Not sure about the flash (I don't own a flash :eek:) But it 'being so new' doesn't seem to be so bad - 3 months in and there aren't any nasty reports, and although the firmware could do with a few tweaks, basically it works, reliably, fast, consistently and without upset.
 

fotografz

Well-known member
In the end, I think the SL has great potential and I'd love to own one ... but I went with adding the A7R-II to my Sony kit because a camera in this general area of use needs to be more complete right now for to me to spend that kind of cash on. The Leica MM and now even the S systems are more complete and fill my needs better. All the rest is handled by the Sony.

IBIS was a major factor in my decision ... perhaps a wee bit less important with a 24 meg sensor, but at 43 meg it seems to come into its own. Frankly, I thought it worked wonders on the Sony A900 and A99 which were also 24 meg. If anyone doubts the effectiveness of IBIS, or derides it compared to lens stabilization, they should mount the Sony AF 500mm Mirror on any Sony camera with IBIS and watch it work:thumbs:

Maybe a SL is in my future when it gets fleshed out more, and the next iteration brings some additional features. Best to those who are enjoying it now!:salute:

- Marc
 

fotografz

Well-known member
Regarding Flash, Besides Nikon I have never been so happy with digital TTL Flash photography. Neither with Canon, nor with Pentax and also not with Leica M and S.
Often Auto works better if one has a good Flash.
But I think TTL should work better, it is not so important for me because I mostly prefer natural light, but if they promote a camera as a professional camera it should work well with TTL Flash.
Promotion and real world differs.:(
What I also dont like is that Leicas seels flashes from Nissin, Metz etc. for a premium Price without offering any additional value. They should rather allow Nissin to sell a Version with Leica contacts or sell the Flash for the same Price like Nissin.
:thumbdown:
As a side note: This has been a big issue for me for a long time. Historically, Leica has lagged badly in the area of dedicated flash which is a mainstay for many professional assignments ... especially event work where available light, natural or otherwise, can be a poor second choice to the proper use of flash (emphasis on "Proper").

To make matters worse, most 3rd party lighting innovations go to Nikon or Canon first, and sometimes never reach Leica, Sony, Oly, etc. Perfect example of this is Profoto B1 and B2 TTL strobes (now with HSS). Only Canon and Nikon ... not even Phase One!

Canon, and now Nikon, have proprietary radio triggered speed-lights, while those from Sony and Leica remain semi-useless line-of-sight IR from the Jurassic age. Nissin has recently introduced radio TTL for Sony, but reviews show it to be too unreliable for paying work. Nothing for Leica.

IMO, digital flash is just as good as in the film era, but with film the lab was saving people from their misuse and mistakes ... where they are more apparent when you are the one processing the images.

In fact, I think digital is the best thing that ever happened to flash work.

The best flash enabled camera from Leica to date has been the S. Even then you have to make sure the Leica SF58 is set to HSS TTL or it won't work:wtf:



- Marc
 

LocalHero1953

New member
Just posted much of this on LUF - may be of interest here as well.
--------------------------------------------------------------
I have just bought the 24-90SL to go with the SL body, and took it on a long weekend to Bologna. I deliberately tried it as a single package for travel and street, knowing that normally I would take my M240 and M lenses (probably 28, 50 and 75). I had a Billingham 1.4 bag to carry it around in, but in practice normally carried it around in one hand using a Spider Pro hand strap, hanging at my side. I taped over the logo and red dot, just to avoid catching the eye. I typically used it in AutoWB, AutoISO, AFs, A mode, wide open by default.


My conclusions were:


- Carrying it around all day (with breaks for coffee, lunch, wine etc) was not a major problem, although I noticed the weight.
- Leaving the lens cap off caused me no worries, as the lens hood is big enough. Like the Apo-Summicron-M 75, but unlike the Apo-Summicron-M 50, whose hood is a bit too small to provide physical protection IMO.
- I'm a biggish guy, and I didn't feel I stood out particularly with SL in my hand at my side (i.e. I am more noticeable as a person than as a photographer). My wife confirmed this. OTOH, I did not feel particularly discreet swinging the camera to my eye and holding it there, and I suspect I was more noticeable than I would have been with the M, particularly in more confined places, such as cafes and crowds.
- In normal scenarios, the SL was blindingly fast to focus and expose, quicker than the M, even allowing for not changing lenses.
- I found spot focusing was often a pain, because the spot often ended up on a blank surface which did not give a quick focus, and moving the body or spot location was distracting (once you've fixed composition, you don't want to move the camera, and moving the spot often leapfrogged the point you wanted to focus on). Small patch focusing was ideal for most cases, and using the joystick to move it was a "joy".
- Occasionally I felt the need to switch to manual focusing (through railings etc), and I would really appreciate a single button press option to switch from AF to MF and back. Hope this comes in future.
- I used Exposure Compensation a lot; assigning it to the top right button was OK, but in my case the hand strap made reaching the button with my thumb not instant. Future firmware should give one the option to directly assign it to a dial. In fact re-assigning dials for different uses should be enabled.
- In very low light, such as dark streets at night, AF would hunt and occasionally fail (TBH, I didn't think to try Multi-Field AF).
- I would really like a quick way to reset the focus patch to the centre. Eventually I got into the habit of resetting it after each shot, but a single button press, or possibly auto recentre would be useful.
- The SL lens appears to be flare-proof. The weather was bitterly cold, but without a cloud in the sky. I took lots of shots into the sun of Bologna's photogenic arcades and their shadows; I can't recall any ruined by flare.
- I set the camera on "no auto review" and sleep mode, and found a battery lasted most of a day. Wake-up delay was as irritating as on the M240, and about the same: 2 secs.
- The one total failure | had was walking into the tropical house at the botanic gardens from -2C outside. Condensation made it impossible to photograph the orchids!
- When speed of reaction is not an issue, composition on the SL is easier because of its zoom. I found I cropped my images much less than I typically do with the M.
- Using a hand strap with the SL was fine, but it limits finger movement a bit. As well as making it a stretch to reach the TR button with my thumb, I occasionally pressed the rear dial and changed mode without noticing. Not Leica's fault, but needs watching.
- Apart from issues mentioned above, I found the ergonomics of the SL exceptionally simple, intuitive and quick compared to a multi-button, multi-option, random layout alternative. (I have the OMD EM5ii, which is supposed to be one of the better ones for ergonomics).


Would I drop the M in favour of the SL for a similar trip in future? No, the M is smaller, lighter and more discreet, and in principle can take the same shots. The greater speed of AF is only one element in capturing the right shot at the right time, and the slightly easier composition with the M (no zoom to fiddle with and distract) combined with the slightly extended moment before a subject notices you, are real benefits of the M.
The SL worked exceptionally well, though, for such an application as this.


Whichever you have, you don't have to worry!
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
As a side note: This has been a big issue for me for a long time. Historically, Leica has lagged badly in the area of dedicated flash which is a mainstay for many professional assignments ... especially event work where available light, natural or otherwise, can be a poor second choice to the proper use of flash (emphasis on "Proper").
...
Curious. Flash was never much of an issue to me when I was doing event work. I had some clients that refused to allow any flash use at all (because it would be distracting, because it would ruin their simultaneous video reportage, etc) and other clients who were interested in the best stills I could make such that for them I could set up manual flash units on radio remote triggers beforehand and scope the exposure needs. In the latter cases, my shooting was done with the camera on manual exposure with the settings I'd developed for the space.

Far as I've seen, Nikon has the best automated, dedicated flash system of anyone out there, and I understand the value for some photographers. But for me, it's never been a problem—most of my professional use of flash has been for table top product photography and a simple, manual setup works very well for that.

G
 
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