Changed my mind.. Don't want to be negetive..
Did you guys see the new 50SL? Some samples here:
Â» Photokina 2016 – Day 1: Checking Out the 50mm Summilux-SL ASPH and Multifunction Handgrip
Last edited by aDam007; 21st September 2016 at 06:37. Reason: Personal reasons :D
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Will keep this Singapore advice in notes for using the S006. Thanks. Wait where did your post go?
Glad I had a chance to read the original post ... did not find it negative in any sense.
But I respect your decision to pass on commenting on something that is so obvious to you.
So much effort has been transferred from the S system to the SL ... assume that they are after
a bigger market and have let the S languish ... rather that have a recall on all bad AF mechanisms and
replace the S corrosion sensors as a batch ... improve their response times and work at firmware and
profiles that would match the S 006 better they have thrown a huge amount of effort into the SL.
M and S owners have seen modest firmware upgrades ... little in the way of lenses that were suggested
at the introduction of the S system.
While the company needs to tend to its bottom line .... owners also need to be aware of their desires needs and
expectations ... and assess if their money and energy is better spent elsewhere.
I agree that the S 006 had superb color DR and in concert with a few of their lenses led to stellar pictures.
Shame that they have not pursued it with the same passion that the owners of the cameras have done.
This is not a negative post ... just an assessment of how things change and how we need to look forward.
I'm just going to enjoy my stay here in COLD Melbourne, with my X-T2 (first time I haven't traveled with something from Leica in maybe 5-10 years?)
Bob, I seem to share the same thoughts. It really seems to me that Leica has almost shafted the S-system in favour of the SL. Because they believe it's the way forward. Be it issues with the S construction, cost of manufacturing vs market demand or whatever the reason.
It's not Leica's fault, to be fair it was just bad timing. The S-system came out when DSLRs were on their way out. And no I don't mean the DSLR is dead, I just mean that no new system would be designed with a mirror at this stage in the game. Even Sony dragged their feet with the TMT camera update (A99II). And probably really only did it because they had the resources and know-how. And really just didn't want to shaft their customers. I liked the A99 for what it was, I had ALL the Zeiss-Sony lenses. But ultimately the system lasted less then a year in my kit, the urge to switch to the A7 series was to strong. And Sony made it so easy with that adapter. To be fair the A7 series didn't last to long in my bag either.. But I'm not really a fan of Sonys colours, that's not a surprise coming from me.
Really what Leica will need to do moving forward is make a mirrorless MFD camera with an adapter for S lenses and an updated line of compact S lenses. But to be honest, I don't think they even have the resources to tackle that kind of a project right now. So the best we can hope for is adapting lenses to the SL. And good native SL lenses with an updated SL body down the road.
To me, none of this adapting makes a lot of sense due to my issues with the sensor. And the fact that I'd rather my AF to be fast if I'm carrying something so big. So I think it's just easier for me to move back to my comfort zone and shoot on an M240-P + a select few M lenses. Anyway rangefinders make me the happiest. So that's probably what I'll do for my travel/fun photography.
In the meantime I won't need to bother lusting over the newest and best from Leica since I'll have another system to handle my work needs. Probably the new GFX from Fuji by the looks of it. And the X-T2 for anything fast moving, since that little camera can hustle.
BTW, something positive about the SL (I'm trying something new here)... I think the 35FLE really works well on that camera. It's one of the better lenses you can adapt IMHO. Something about the colour of the lens that really seems to jive with the sensor. And I guess another positive. The 75APO is defective by design. So having an EVF will allow you to learn/manage the flaws of the lens. Essentially being able to see the scene unfold, allows you to avoid catching the 75APO on bad angles. And believe me for anyone who's not used the 75APO, it can be one of the most amazing rendering lenses, and one of the worst pieces of metal and glass to ever come from Germany. You really just need to know how to handle it. That and if I ever get asked to do more corporate video work. I can just use the SL, since it supposedly has awesome video capabilities (I wouldn't be able to confirm or deny, as I've not really bothered with it to much yet).
Video on the SL is stellar if you use an external recorder to capture 10bit ... otherwise the Log setting is ineffective. With 10 bit it looks stellar ... and if you use the C series Leica lenses ....
Out of my league with the Summicrons at $15K and the Summiluxes at $32K per lens.
I'll look into the external recorders for capturing better footage. I'm considering playing around with the video function as to not waste the camera.
Odyssey 7 Q+ would be my recommendation .... beautifully made and they update firmware regularly ... it will handle 4K RAW ... essentially anything you can throw at it.
Very easy to pull focus with and has waveform peaking and magnification while recording.
Mount it on a Noga arm from the tripod and it does not affect the balance of the camera.
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We are all changing our tools as we see fit and no one should deride us for that. Heck, for landscape I had a P45+ until the fiddly wire to my Hasselblad V's just ticked me off all too often and got the 645Z which I loved UNTIL PO came out with something I wanted to try again as I liked their colors at lot. All the while I have had friends who used and still use and like the S006 and think they will only switch to the S007 once its price falls to an acceptable level for them. I surmise this is because they have invested heavily in S glass which they like.
These same friends like the M240 for street and travel. So again that is their and my choice too, but we hold our gear all too often in too high esteem instead of concentrating on the ultimate goal-making great photographs. Great is interpreted by us all in very different ways, but we should all have, above all, fun with our photography.
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I dont really see the benefits of an EVF over the excellent OVF of the Leica S.
I also find the lens range of the S very complete - besides my wish for a TS lens in the wide angle range.
Lets see how compact the Fuji and Hassy lenses are compared to the S lenses.
I still find the S system very very good, if they fix the AF motor issue and improve service in USA (my experience in Germany with service is good).
The SL is a very good camera, flexible, fast etc. etc,
My heart is still more with the M and the S.
I even decided to get a M262 since I allways feel the M 240 feels a little like a brick.
The simplicity of the M is always a joy for me. I use auto iso, then just set f-stop, focus, click, thats it.
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I'm more a fan of OVF and RF then EVF. But also personal preference I guess.
I also find the SF-64 flash works better in TTL mode on the S-006 then SL, which is funny/weird right?
I'm fairly certain the Fuji lenses and Hassy lenses won't be as good as the S lenses.
Does the M262 actually feel lighter but still solid? I was thinking M-D since I don't look at my screen. But gonna probably settle on another M240-P because I don't like the red dot and REALLY like sapphire glass. Since I've not had problems with it. Whereas I have with the regular glass screens.
A few more photos with the 50Lux-SL are out and about on the net. Not really what I'm looking for in a lens. But also again, not really the best way to judge a lens. I will have to wait and play with one for myself.
Wish the 100S was a faster to focus lens. And of course didn't break down every 6 months.
I currently have both M-P typ 240 and M-D typ 262. Both are excellent, but the M-P is up for sale now. In the M line, I greatly prefer the utter simplicity of the M-D.
Therefore for me the display is important. When I shoot in a certain light I check exosure on the display and then set exp comp. I have some idea (-0.3/0.7 in bright contrast situations, +0/0.3 when shooting into light, and 0 in low light low contrast) but checking is more precise. I dont check for each image but just at the beginning of a series.
Thats why the MD is not an option for me.
I am pretty sure the 262 will still feel solid, but can tell you more next week.
In a way its weird to buy a 262 when one has a 240, but it often just feels a little like a brick and I also never use the EVF anyways, so the 262 offers even more simplicity (less menue options, less buttons).
Whenever I use the SL I think it works fine but I dont feel the simplicity of the M.
However I also can say if I was pro and had to make sure I get each shot I would feel better to use the SL.
I like to nail it as much as possible in the first step. If i didnt have a display to check I woul probably underexpose 90% of my images by -0.3 just to make sure to make sure to not loose images throuh blown highlights. Anyways, 262 md is not an option for me even though I cansee its appealing for some.
I have no issues with the M246 aside from the fact that it's black and white Oddly enough though, it worked for it's intended purpose. I was trying to convince myself to like black and white images. And ever since owning and using the camera. I now convert more of my color photos to black and white, because I somehow like the look of black and white now. Whereas before I did it as last resort to salvage a good moment with terrible colours (like if a stupid videographer ran up with his terrible on camera light. Or someone guest was using AF assist lights or etc).
Yesterday I went to a sports event (running) where my kids and friends took part. I brought my T which I normally like a lot. Mistake.
For sports like this, where you want to hit these short moments (start/end etc.) I wished I had brought my SL and made me remember one of the reasons why I bought the SL. I really love the M, like the T, but for some things the SL helps to get the shot.
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Not disputing the AF in good light. Like all modern cameras the AF is fast in good light. Dare I say almost the fastest I've used (w/the 24-90).
Event lighting, that's a different story. I think the smaller aperture really hurts the SL for indoor shooting. Perhaps the 50LUX-L will be better suited for indoor shooting (using the 35TL however is not advised indoors with the SL, not a great performer AF wise, even outdoors if I'm being honest).
The 60TL is actually faster then the 35TL if you're not going from near macro range to portrait distance (in that case it gets confused easily). If the 60TL is going from mid distance to candid to mid distance to candid etc.. It's actually faster then the 35TL by a noticeable amount. I wouldn't say sports fast, but it can definitely capture people walking down the street at a brisk pace. Whereas the 35TL I find is very hit or miss. I think they need an internal focus limiter for the 60TL. That would help the lens a lot. As in, a quick menu option on/off that disallows focusing closer then say 1m.
My Mp240 is hardly used these days- since the Sl purchase - I cant see much difference between the chips and their rencering wither on C1 or Lightromm to be honest. The rangefinder is fun - but the SL is easier and more accurate in most shooting circumstances if one cares about accurate focus with fast lenses.
I wish the SL was 35 megapixels - my only criticism except for limitations about EVF modes.
I decided that I really had to check out the SL, so yesterday I made the trip to a local supplier and finally looked and felt one over (sounds vaguely rude!).
First impressions. Incredibly well made. Matchless, actually, with respect to any other camera I have held. Unless you really do need more the 24mpx which I still find hard to believe unless you are doing something like wildlife - I'd expect this camera to last at least 5 years or even 10. Yes, the sensor technology will change enormously in that period but for 99% of my photography this would suffice.
Secondly, with the 24-90 attached, as soon as I tried to pick the combination up my back muscles started to go into spasm. I could not seriously use this combination. With an M lens attached (with adapter) it was mildly unpleasant to lift but not overly, though.
Thirdly, I really liked the un-cluttered knobs, dials and menus. This is why I chose a Leica Q over a Sony RX1R when I had the chance.
What I want is a really grown up mirrorless and I can see where Leica is filling that gap - single-handedly which is much to their credit. It looks like Hasselblad with X1D will also do this but for the price of the body alone I could get a SL and at least one or two M lenses (second hand prices). In fact all I need is a CV15mm, 21mm, 50mm (the 2.8 Elmar is my favourite) and 90mm (last generation Elmarit or the Macro M) - my Q will do 28-35mm happily.
Bottom line, though, I do not think this is the camera for me. I am now dedicated to mirrorless technology. I am not going back to an OVF. I'd rather have no viewfinder and just a rear LCD screen. My kit comprises the Q, a Panasonic GX8 and associated Lumix and PanaLeica lenses and several Sigma DPx and a Quattro compacts.
That said I do wonder whether just go M and use the live view with a Hoodman Loupe for critical stuff (which I do sometimes even with the Q and GX8).
The only thing putting me off is the weight. I'll have to go back and play with one again and see if I can really put up with it. I can't understand why Leica have done this. They have taken the best FF sensor available on the market (imho) and encased it in the equivalent of a (very nicely finished and designed) concrete block. They could have used lighter materials - not sure why they had to do it this way.
Anyway, just my two cents.
A very close friend and highly regarded photographer has been using the SL for a while now. He brought it over for me to try out. Obviously, a couple of hours goofing off with the SL isn't a definitive evaluation of anything.
However, his intense use of the kit and blunt feed-back carries a fair amount of sway with me.
Generally, he likes the camera (as a first gen model). The 24-90 is nothing to write home about in any way, but the longer zoom is much better. He especially likes the movie functions for some dance work he's been doing. He has used his M Noctilux and appreciates the ability to focus it accurately.
My impression of the kit was ergonomically simple and clean, unlike the Sony A camera's "jet cockpit" tomfoolery. The whole kit is massive, heavy and unwieldy for a mirrorless and the results you can get ... and I'd find small M lenses on it to be like a size 10 face with a size 2 nose. Sorry, I'm a visual guy and grossly unbalanced stuff irritates me no matter how well it works.
I could easily overlook some of this, and consider a SL. But Doug's evaluation of the actually shooting experience (which hopefully gets attention in firmware) would have to be addressed, and I'd have to contend with Leica's 3rd world lighting solutions. Adding IBIS in v2.0 would also be highly desirable. To date I've not been a fan of the rendering from this sensor, but as it gets into more hands that situation seems to be mitigated a bit ... TBD.
All due respect to the fans and enthusiastic adopters ... many whom are long time friends here on GetDpi ... but ...
I WILL NOT KEEP QUIET, AND WILL INFECT EVERY THREAD ABOUT LEICA I CAN FIND! I WILL NOT GO QUIETLY INTO THE GOOD NIGHT.
It is the only recourse left those left in the lurch. If that makes others uncomfortable, so be it.
To those who say "grousing is getting old so just move on and enjoy your photography", must have something that allows them to do that and/or money to burn ... I don't. I have $70K+ invested in unreliable, so called professional equipment from a company that has been unable to fix the problems and is totally lacking in communication and service abilities. While I give them credit for "good will" fixes, I'm now into 2nd failures of S lenses already fixed ... currently two failed lenses: one lost at Leica, and the other sitting in my studio waiting to be sent in and then lost by Leica. Keep in mind that these failures are of their making mechanically and for service. I used my earlier S lenses for years without failures and any service needed was slow but reasonably responsive.
To those who say sell it and get something else, I can't because who the hell would buy it unless I bend over and sell it at such a loss as to negate a year's worth of hard work and profit.
10 years ago I could absorb such a hit, now I cannot ... or better said, WILL NOT! Besides, if something else better was to my liking I would have bought it prior to all this. The S is the system I thought would last me for a long time like those who postulate that the SL is. Good luck with that.
So forgive me raining on everyone's parade with their shiny new SL or T or instant toy camera ... I can only hope a few years from now you are not in my place and that of Adam, or the myriad others who have been fuked by Leica without even having been taken to dinner first ...
Last edited by fotografz; 17th December 2016 at 06:03.
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If it makes you feel any better, S repair and customer service is getting a lot of attention right now - to the point that other professionals I know are complaining that the effort isn't going into improving tethering, which is their main problem with using the S system for their work. I've tried to get the message about your recent experiences up the Leica chain as far as I can reach. ("If Marc isn't defending your system, you guys are in trouble.") The response came back "We know Marc and we're working on it as hard as we can."
I wish I could say something more positive than that they hear you. I'm in the "don't need the S to earn a living" category, so I can take a wait and see attitude. I *want* it to get fixed because there's nothing I've ever touched that I've liked better, both in use and results. I don't want to carry around slower smaller lenses. The X1D does nothing for me ergonomically, and if I wanted a CMOS, I'd get an (007). I wouldn't mind more MP, but don't feel constrained by what it delivers.
And please, keep ranting. Coming from you, it means something.
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Sorry Marc, but:
I love the SL JUST AS IT IS and wouldn't have them change a thing.
The size and weight balance perfectly with its lenses and my R lenses.
The way it works is so close to perfect for the way I shoot, I'm stunned how they got it so right.
The performance is right on the money.
Seriously, "Me thinks thou dost protest too much."
What's happened with the S system and its AF problems is not an issue with the SL.
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even with a 1.4 magnifier on the M.
Live view and focus magnification seemed the answer ... or sell the Nocti ...
Due to continued poor service in the US with Leica and in agreement with Marc that the SL is way to big ... not to mention lenses that seem as large as the S system lenses ... I returned to Sony. Had a A7s ... now I am using the A7Rii ... and may play with the
TechArt AF adapter ... although I use MF 90% of the time ... as rocks, trees, and the occasional cow tend not to outrun my focusing skills with the EVF. I need to play a bit more with color out of the camera but it is a much more esthetic answer for
me than the SL ... and the rumored A9 may improve on that a bit. Half the price ... much higher resolution and room for cropping. Once I set the menus I tend to change little that is not available from the fiddly little buttons.
I loved ... truly loved my Q but I feel the SL is a bit over the top ... size weight and price.
But I do get its attraction for those who use it. I loved the four button approach on the S ... it is how I use the A7Rii ...
I do feel that Marc you could drop the S and benefit ... just pare down a bit ... H6D with 24 50 II and 100 ... A7Rii for intermediate focal lengths and longer lenses, as I know your post process skills can make any camera output stellar. Too many of us have had such bad experience and feelings with Leica service ... not the Platinum service of the original S2-P. A complete redesign of the AF mechanism of the S lenses should have happened early ... prior to them losing control of the process and killing any customer goodwill.
Taking two months ... really six in some cases to repair a lens that is defective at no cost is not doing the customer a favor.
The truth of the matter in my mind is that S system has been relegated to a back status as the SL Q T and new M have been given resource and priority. So much for catering to the professional who makes his living from his investment in Leica hardware.
An interchangeable lens Q would be a dream camera! I'm also wondering if the SL lenses are pre-build for a future medium format S mirrorless image circle. As many have said, they are just so big and the point for mirrorless for many of us was the size advantage it allowed. In my somewhat limited experience with the SL, it was the best 35mm cameras I have used. I just prefer to shoot medium format when you when you compare the price and size, with the X1D coming out (soon?!). And then I have the Panasonic gh4, soon to be gh5 for most of my video stuff with the Leica lensesfor that, which are great.
That was my thought too of which Iexpressed in the X1D thread here on Getdpi. Namely that the SL body and soecifically its lenses seemed to be designed with the future in mind, not only for higher resolution 35mm full sized sensors but for cropped MFD.
I wouldn't even be surprised seeing the SL evolve in that direction sometime in the future.
Last edited by D&A; 17th December 2016 at 12:25.
I speak as a current Q user. A zoom Q would be ideal.
The sensor in the Q/SL is so damn good but for me the SL is just too big and heavy for what it delivers.
Just my two cents on that one.
An interchangeable lens Q, or a line of multiple focal length Qs (28/50/90) like Sigma's models.. would be awesome.
Longtime M user.. M2->M3->M6->RD1->M8->M240
6 month Q user..
Love the weight & overall responsiveness/quality of the Q.
Also enjoy the better DR above ISO 1600 than the M240.. it is really quite noticeable now. I find the files much more malleable.
Love my M lenses.. wish the body were lighter.
Love the RF for outside-the-frameline view and composing on the street. Given my eyeglasses though, I only see outside the frame lines @ 50mm...
Being honest with myself, I also find either that..
My RF focussing is getting worse (a scary thought @ 32)... or the Q is just so good, it makes my M hit-rate appear abysmal by comparison.
So what do I do from here...
The new M is rumored to be smaller/lighter, but the same old sale old (middling EVF & video quality)... solving 1 of my problems but not the other.
Or get an SL to use with M lenses focussing with that big, beautiful EVF... solving the focus problem but not helping the weight problem.
Of course M240+grip+thumbs-up is comparable to SL+M adapter..
Was really expecting(hoping) for the TL to basically be that interchangeable Q, kind of a blending between the SL and original T. But seems we will have to wait for a true T replacement. Wasn't trying to take the thread too far off topic, was just trying to give some context to where I thought the SL stood in terms of the overall camera scape and what my wants were. If I only wanted to shoot with 35mm format, I'd hands down choose the SL. Between the stills and video features and Leica lenses and adaptable lenses, it's a very complete system.
The SL doens't cost much more than the 240 MP I bought and apart from weight is a better camera in every way. Whilst heavier and less transportable than an M - The SL is smaller and lighter than the S - which was to big for me as a walk around camera - its lenses being larger and heavier than the SL lenses - and I can't mount an M lens on the S or Ziess Otus or Milvus. I dont do studio lighting photography anymore and therefore the absence of leaf shutter lenses is not a problem for me. the only issue I have with the SL is that the camera is easily capable of having a larger megapixel chip - but clearly the SL with a 50 megapixel chip on board - would be in direct rather than indirect competition with the S series.
I do however appreciate that it is early times in Sl land and there is plenty of scope for problems to emerge with both my zooms - fortunately the camera itself has bnehaved flawlesslesly since day one and continues to do so. I'm in no hurry to replace my M lenses with autofocus primes from Leica - until they show some indication that the SL line will not be a sacrificial purposefully underpowered poor cousin to the S line.
I can understand why people would prefer a Sony AR711 as a lens carriage 40 megapixels is much more than 25 - but the Sl to me is a beautiful industrial design that feels perfect in hand and matched to a Nocti - it is special magic.
Peter, it may be much more than the pixels.
But, the rounded pixel count is 42mp vs 24mp.