I'm quite intrigued with the Leica SL. It's minimalist style and 11ps with dual SD cards, something I think Sony made a big mistake by not including in the A7 models. I've used the A7rii with a Batis 25mm and Zeiss 55mm 1.8 and think the files are incredibly good, MFD good at 16x20. Very good specs and output from the Sony. Features such as eye AF, silent shutter are very welcomed, especially at weddings, but no dual SD cards made me slightly hesitant. Hence, the SL. I really like these specs and personally think 24mp is perfect for today's lenses, my personal print needs and hard drive space. The 50mm 1.4 Lux is all I need for glass because I primarily only shoot standard prime focal lengths anyway. I want to invest in a camera that's more future proof and retains its value longer too. To those that own the Leica SL, are you happy with the decision? Perhaps i'm just wanting confirmation, but i've been very pleased with the output of Leica images when I owned an M9 and the SL seems to be a beautiful evolution of all that goodness with the specs I need. Thank you.
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Leica SL and the Sony A7rii
- Thread starter jdphoto
- Start date
k-hawinkler
Well-known member
Have you also considered Leica Repair Service issues? 
You may need to get two cameras at a minimum. :facesmack:
You may need to get two cameras at a minimum. :facesmack:
No, but i'm afraid to ask...Are the camera's prone to need repair or just the service in general?Have you also considered Leica Repair Service issues?
You may need to get two cameras at a minimum. :facesmack:
k-hawinkler
Well-known member
In which country do you live?
k-hawinkler
Well-known member
Me too, NM. Please have a look here.
http://www.getdpi.com/forum/leica/59271-leica-service.html
I can't speak personally to the SL. I have an M9 with leprosy. :thumbdown:
thedigitalbean
Member
Leica S and SL user here.
The SL is not prone to needing repair. The S lenses however have an issue with their AF motors where they unexpectedly fail. The good news is that Leica is replacing them for free even out of warranty. The bad news is that the repairs often take longer than 3 months and in some cases as long as 7 months.
The SL is not prone to needing repair. The S lenses however have an issue with their AF motors where they unexpectedly fail. The good news is that Leica is replacing them for free even out of warranty. The bad news is that the repairs often take longer than 3 months and in some cases as long as 7 months.
Not anymore. Leica supposedly has a solution to the AF problem on the S lenses, finally. My zoom was repaired and returned in less than 2 weeks this fall.
SL cameras and lenses seem to be very stable, I have not seen any errors reported on forums.
Speedgraphic
Member
Based on what you wrote I can offer some thoughts. First, consider lens availability. Do you want to start using large variable-aperture zooms? Do you want to forgo phase detect AF for contrast detect only? Leica has nothing to answer for the Batis or Sony Zeiss line up. They do have a 50mm lens now, but an early review stated it's good, but not massively better than the Sigma Art 50 or Otus. They will not have a 35mm lens ready until the next Photokina. If you're a primes guy like you said, Sony has WAY more.
Next consider the sensor. If you shoot in low light it's pretty bad. The sensor still has banding at high ISOs. It's better than the M 240 by a lot, but much worse than any Sony sensor. The BSI sensor in the A7RII and RX1RII is the best 35mm digital sensor available for any system, full stop. It's a wonder to behold those files. The SL puts out typical contrasty SooC files with a lot of detail, but they fall apart much faster and are lower resolution of course, with more noise at higher ISOs.
As for value. Well it's pretty much a myth that Leica equipment holds it's value when it comes to the digital gear. Yes, they still sell for a lot on the 2nd hand market, but you had to invest a lot more at the outset. The actual percentage decrease in value is pretty similar to what you see from other brands. After a time though, prices do tend to stabilize, but this is years later and still only a fraction of the initially investment (M9, M8). I bought a used M 240 this year for $2,900 US dollars. That's like 40ish % of it's initial value. 5D Mark IIIs are selling used at B&H for $1800ish dollars, 60% of the initial investment. Which is a better value proposition? The 5D costs less, but it retained more.
As for future proof... Leica hasn't made any digital camera that is future proof. It's true that people still use the older bodies, but that's not any different than the many people still shooting cameras like the D700 or 5D Mark II/Classic. You CAN use it as long as you want, but I might argue that as soon as the SL2 comes out with better AF tech and low light, you're gonna want it. Especially because Leica sensors show their flaws so much more over time because they start about a gen behind the curve.
Frankly, as a working wedding photographer, get a boring camera for weddings. Canikons are built for this job, and they still do it better than anything out there on the market. Then get a Leica for yourself, not for work. Or better yet, save your money and shoot a 5DIV/D810/D750 along side the A7RII with the Sony 50mm 1.4 Planar. Given the sensor quality and the fact that the Planar has seen rave reviews, you will out perform the SL even if the Summilux is 5% better in any given way.
Next consider the sensor. If you shoot in low light it's pretty bad. The sensor still has banding at high ISOs. It's better than the M 240 by a lot, but much worse than any Sony sensor. The BSI sensor in the A7RII and RX1RII is the best 35mm digital sensor available for any system, full stop. It's a wonder to behold those files. The SL puts out typical contrasty SooC files with a lot of detail, but they fall apart much faster and are lower resolution of course, with more noise at higher ISOs.
As for value. Well it's pretty much a myth that Leica equipment holds it's value when it comes to the digital gear. Yes, they still sell for a lot on the 2nd hand market, but you had to invest a lot more at the outset. The actual percentage decrease in value is pretty similar to what you see from other brands. After a time though, prices do tend to stabilize, but this is years later and still only a fraction of the initially investment (M9, M8). I bought a used M 240 this year for $2,900 US dollars. That's like 40ish % of it's initial value. 5D Mark IIIs are selling used at B&H for $1800ish dollars, 60% of the initial investment. Which is a better value proposition? The 5D costs less, but it retained more.
As for future proof... Leica hasn't made any digital camera that is future proof. It's true that people still use the older bodies, but that's not any different than the many people still shooting cameras like the D700 or 5D Mark II/Classic. You CAN use it as long as you want, but I might argue that as soon as the SL2 comes out with better AF tech and low light, you're gonna want it. Especially because Leica sensors show their flaws so much more over time because they start about a gen behind the curve.
Frankly, as a working wedding photographer, get a boring camera for weddings. Canikons are built for this job, and they still do it better than anything out there on the market. Then get a Leica for yourself, not for work. Or better yet, save your money and shoot a 5DIV/D810/D750 along side the A7RII with the Sony 50mm 1.4 Planar. Given the sensor quality and the fact that the Planar has seen rave reviews, you will out perform the SL even if the Summilux is 5% better in any given way.
Godfrey
Well-known member
I have been shooting with the Leica SL and its dedicated Vario-Elmarit-SL 24-90mm lens since they were first delivered to customers on November 16, 2015. I've also used all of my Leica R prime lenses with it (fifteen lenses from 15mm to 250mm), all of my Leica M lenses (twelve lenses from 16mm to 135mm), as well as a smattering of other manufacturers' lenses. Leica has updated the firmware four times, adding features and amending behavior, based on both bug reports and user suggestions, with each update. I have had no problems with the camera or its lens whatsoever.
The Leica SL and SL24-90 lens has been extremely reliable. I've participated in discussions on four forums centered on the SL: reports of problems to date have been virtually nonexistent. Most of what little has been reported as a problem has either been a user misunderstanding how to use the camera or a feature that is missing. My camera and lenses have made over 10,000 exposures now and still feel, sound, and look as if new.
The SL's sensor has very good sensitivity. Here is a test shot at ISO 20,000, captured in RAW and processed at the Lightroom defaults with just a little cropping and the noise reduction raised from the default at 25 to 40:
Click on the image to see a full resolution JPEG.
I had a Sony A7 prior to the SL. The SL24-90mm lens out-performs any Sony lens I tried. The SL body unquestionably outperforms the Sony when used with any/all of my Leica M and R lenses, and particularly with the short focal lengths, and specifically when used with the same lenses. It has better ergonomics, a better viewfinder, and better build quality. The Leica shutter is in a totally different class compared to the Sony shutters.
I have had no difficulties communicating with Leica USA tech support, sales, or service personnel. Since I started using Leica gear, I have received nothing but excellent service for all my equipment—I've been using Leica equipment and doing business with Leica's US distributor since 1969, both as an amateur user and for my photographic business efforts. Whenever a problem has developed with any of the M, X, and R cameras I've owned, they've taken care of the problem quickly and efficiently. Of course, the SL has not yet developed any problems so I can't answer as to their service on this specific model.
The SL is my primary system camera now and works exactly the way I'd hoped a digital camera might someday work since I started using digital cameras in 2001-2002 or thereabouts. It is so competent and such a delight to use that I don't really see myself needing to replace or upgrade it for quite a few years to come. I've sold off several cameras so far (including the Sony A7) and will soon sell off my Nikon and Olympus kits as well ... they're no longer needed now that I have the SL.
G
I too, have owned and used the SL since it hit the streets in November 2015, and I have nary a glitch to report. Overall, I would say that after fourteen months with the SL, it has to be the best all-around system I have ever owned, and I have owned and used extensively systems from Nikon, Canon, Sony, and now Leica.
It's true, there have been AF problems with some of Leica's lenses, namely for the S, but to Leica's credit, they continue to repair free of charge any lens with an AF issue, whether in warranty or out. Same for sensor corrosion issues. Leica could have taken the position that if the equipment is out of warranty, the problem is yours, but they chose to acknowledge the issues and to do the right thing by their customers. Certainly, this approach has weighed down their repair department, but I would choose to wait a few extra weeks if the alternative is to have to pay for the repair. While there have been many reports here and on other forums concerning lengthy waits for repairs, turnaround seems to have improved substantially recently with Leica's revamping of their customer service department, and my own experience of late confirms it.
I have held onto some of my Canon and Sony equipment, mainly as a security blanket, but I no longer feel that is necessary. I have complete confidence in my Leica equipment and Leica's support of it.
Shooting with the SL is pure joy, and with adapters, I have access to an awesome lineup of lenses that I have accumulated over the years for my Canon, Leica M, and Leica S equipment, in addition to the native zooms for the SL, which are among the best lenses available. While no system is perfect, the SL comes as close as anything I have found.
It's true, there have been AF problems with some of Leica's lenses, namely for the S, but to Leica's credit, they continue to repair free of charge any lens with an AF issue, whether in warranty or out. Same for sensor corrosion issues. Leica could have taken the position that if the equipment is out of warranty, the problem is yours, but they chose to acknowledge the issues and to do the right thing by their customers. Certainly, this approach has weighed down their repair department, but I would choose to wait a few extra weeks if the alternative is to have to pay for the repair. While there have been many reports here and on other forums concerning lengthy waits for repairs, turnaround seems to have improved substantially recently with Leica's revamping of their customer service department, and my own experience of late confirms it.
I have held onto some of my Canon and Sony equipment, mainly as a security blanket, but I no longer feel that is necessary. I have complete confidence in my Leica equipment and Leica's support of it.
Shooting with the SL is pure joy, and with adapters, I have access to an awesome lineup of lenses that I have accumulated over the years for my Canon, Leica M, and Leica S equipment, in addition to the native zooms for the SL, which are among the best lenses available. While no system is perfect, the SL comes as close as anything I have found.
Thank you! I appreciate you taking the time with excellent points to consider. The depreciation of Leica digital is certainly proportional to the initial investment, so that's a considerable consideration.The SL 50mm 1.4 Summilux being compared to the Otus puts in rarified air for sure, and from what I've read a bit more pricey too. I am aware of the great selection of really stellar FE lenses, but as previously mentioned I use a standard prime (55mm 1.8) almost exclusively. This has allowed me to travel light and has served me well for most of my wedding and environmental portrait work. It's curious that the SL was introduced with a zoom and not a prime. Video is not of use to me, but the 11fps of the SL would be quite useful for my sports/action shoots. By saying future proof, my point was to find a camera that has most of the important features I need now and no reason to upgrade for a while if at all. I'm a mirrorless convert and like 2 SD cards, so that limits my selections for full frame. I shoot film too and appreciate the character of certain cameras - although this is more emotional than practical. Both Sony A7rii and the Leica SL have a great user experience and build quality with a slight edge towards the Leica's SL's S2 styling, which is certainly out of my range. The contrasty 3D look of my M9 pics are unique with excellent color and character and i'd like to replicate that in camera. Perhaps it's best to wait for the SL2, but Leica's new model launches are few and far between. So they will once again, as you say, be a gen behind the curve.
Thank you for that information...very persuasive. The high ISO looks good and i almost never shoot over 6400. I know cameras are tools, but the elemental value of having the right tool can be more emotional and not always practical as mentioned before. The Leica does this for me in terms of a tactile experience and that ultimately can be inspirational.I have been shooting with the Leica SL and its dedicated Vario-Elmarit-SL 24-90mm lens since they were first delivered to customers on November 16, 2015. I've also used all of my Leica R prime lenses with it (fifteen lenses from 15mm to 250mm), all of my Leica M lenses (twelve lenses from 16mm to 135mm), as well as a smattering of other manufacturers' lenses. Leica has updated the firmware four times, adding features and amending behavior, based on both bug reports and user suggestions, with each update. I have had no problems with the camera or its lens whatsoever.
The Leica SL and SL24-90 lens has been extremely reliable. I've participated in discussions on four forums centered on the SL: reports of problems to date have been virtually nonexistent. Most of what little has been reported as a problem has either been a user misunderstanding how to use the camera or a feature that is missing. My camera and lenses have made over 10,000 exposures now and still feel, sound, and look as if new.
The SL's sensor has very good sensitivity. Here is a test shot at ISO 20,000, captured in RAW and processed at the Lightroom defaults with just a little cropping and the noise reduction raised from the default at 25 to 40:
Click on the image to see a full resolution JPEG.
I had a Sony A7 prior to the SL. The SL24-90mm lens out-performs any Sony lens I tried. The SL body unquestionably outperforms the Sony when used with any/all of my Leica M and R lenses, and particularly with the short focal lengths, and specifically when used with the same lenses. It has better ergonomics, a better viewfinder, and better build quality. The Leica shutter is in a totally different class compared to the Sony shutters.
I have had no difficulties communicating with Leica USA tech support, sales, or service personnel. Since I started using Leica gear, I have received nothing but excellent service for all my equipment—I've been using Leica equipment and doing business with Leica's US distributor since 1969, both as an amateur user and for my photographic business efforts. Whenever a problem has developed with any of the M, X, and R cameras I've owned, they've taken care of the problem quickly and efficiently. Of course, the SL has not yet developed any problems so I can't answer as to their service on this specific model.
The SL is my primary system camera now and works exactly the way I'd hoped a digital camera might someday work since I started using digital cameras in 2001-2002 or thereabouts. It is so competent and such a delight to use that I don't really see myself needing to replace or upgrade it for quite a few years to come. I've sold off several cameras so far (including the Sony A7) and will soon sell off my Nikon and Olympus kits as well ... they're no longer needed now that I have the SL.
G
Skip Leica, stick to the Japanese brands. First hand experience with Leica S2 (sensor issues), S lenses (AF failed on three of them), Summilux FLE 35MM (bought new for $4,999 from B&H and had to be sent to Leica for calibration right out of the box), 21 MM Super Elmar (bought new for $2999 from Dale and had to be sent to Leica NJ as left side of images were blurred. Had to be repaired in Germany as Leica NJ did not have the equipment to fix it) and more.
Service is terrible as is depreciation. Just check out the prices for used M lenses here and on eBay.
Zero issues with my Sony A7 and A7S - thousands of exposures in all conditions. Batis and Loxia lenses are great. Leica R lenses with adapter are excellent too and on the A7II I am able to hand-hold Leica R 180 Elmarit APO down to 1/40 seconds and still get sharp pictures with stabilization turned on. Amazing.
Sony service is bad too, but the for the cost of the initial outlay and the miles ahead reliability, it is a no brainer.
Service is terrible as is depreciation. Just check out the prices for used M lenses here and on eBay.
Zero issues with my Sony A7 and A7S - thousands of exposures in all conditions. Batis and Loxia lenses are great. Leica R lenses with adapter are excellent too and on the A7II I am able to hand-hold Leica R 180 Elmarit APO down to 1/40 seconds and still get sharp pictures with stabilization turned on. Amazing.
Sony service is bad too, but the for the cost of the initial outlay and the miles ahead reliability, it is a no brainer.
Excellent advice both on the value retention and Canikons. I am not a DSLR guy, but rented (from lensrentals) a "lowly" Canon 6D and Canon 100-400 II for a trip to CA last year. It was an eye opener. Beautiful combo and IS on that lens is like black magic. Never before was I able to shoot at 400MM hand-held without blurring the shot and there are very few zooms with an even optical performance across the full range.
MGrayson
Subscriber and Workshop Member
Strange. I have had exactly the opposite experience. Zero problems with any Leica body or lens (M9, S(006), a dozen M lenses, 4 S lenses). Three of the four Sony lenses I bought had to be returned. I gave up on them and only use my Canon lenses on the A7II.
So make of our anecdotes what you will.
Andrew Gough
Active member
Just for the record, I currently own two Leica SL's, a Canon 5d3, two A7sII's and an A7rII. I bought the SL's used, and they are indistinguishable from new. All the rest were bought new. The king of depreciation is the Sony A7 series. The A7R initially shipped at US $2299, and is now available new for $1600. Used prices are in the $1000 range. Sony and Canon tend to drop body prices during the life cycle of the product, plus you can add rebates and other promotions to the general used price decline.
The Canons seem to hold their value at 50-60%, this probably due to the size of the used market.
I don't know what the Leica SL's debut pricing was, but today B&H has it for US $7450 and it sells used for $5000-5500. As a camera, it is a joy to use, unlike the Sony.
The Sony A7XII's will hold their value until the next model is announced, and then you will see a significant drop. It was the same with the A7x series - which I also owned.
No camera manufacturer is immune to depreciation, its just a fact of life for many things. On a positive note, my Leica R lenses have gone up in value though...
My M240's were as reliable as any other camera. I have seen failures from all the brands that I use.
The Canons seem to hold their value at 50-60%, this probably due to the size of the used market.
I don't know what the Leica SL's debut pricing was, but today B&H has it for US $7450 and it sells used for $5000-5500. As a camera, it is a joy to use, unlike the Sony.
The Sony A7XII's will hold their value until the next model is announced, and then you will see a significant drop. It was the same with the A7x series - which I also owned.
No camera manufacturer is immune to depreciation, its just a fact of life for many things. On a positive note, my Leica R lenses have gone up in value though...
My M240's were as reliable as any other camera. I have seen failures from all the brands that I use.
Just to set the record straight, Sony A7s are quite enjoyable to use. And as far as depreciation goes, a quick look at M and S used lens prices compared to their retail peak price is a good indicator of where things stand vs other brands.
OP may try renting before commiting to any one brand. My commitment is only to my R lenses - no electronics to fail and work on mirrorless and DSLRs. Everything else is disposable.
OP may try renting before commiting to any one brand. My commitment is only to my R lenses - no electronics to fail and work on mirrorless and DSLRs. Everything else is disposable.
Andrew Gough
Active member
You might like the Sony's, but personally, I would take a Canon over the Sony and I would take a Leica over a Canon. But, and its a big but - its all about personal choice. Horses for courses, so to speak. I agree the OP should rent and see which camera he likes. Its ultimately about the shot, and how each of us chooses to get it, is purely personal.
If you spend the same $$ on any camera or multiples to yield the same dollar value - it will ultimately yield the same percentage of depreciation. I know this because my accountant and I deal with this every year. A7RII's which introduced at US $3499 are now selling for $2400 used. When the A7RIII is announced (Soon) they will drop below $2G. So two A7RII's (the same value as a Leica M) will be worth 4K after two years. Coincidentally, that is what my used M was worth after a little over two years. Its really the same percentages, and over the years this has generally not changed.
What does matter, is that each person uses the camera that brings them joy to use. Its supposed to be fun!
If you spend the same $$ on any camera or multiples to yield the same dollar value - it will ultimately yield the same percentage of depreciation. I know this because my accountant and I deal with this every year. A7RII's which introduced at US $3499 are now selling for $2400 used. When the A7RIII is announced (Soon) they will drop below $2G. So two A7RII's (the same value as a Leica M) will be worth 4K after two years. Coincidentally, that is what my used M was worth after a little over two years. Its really the same percentages, and over the years this has generally not changed.
What does matter, is that each person uses the camera that brings them joy to use. Its supposed to be fun!