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Leica SL and the Sony A7rii

jaree

Member
Personally I would never buy a Leica and choose Sony. And I would rather lose 25% of 10 than than 25% of 30. Been there done that with several bodies and lenses.

I can't wait to have fun with the Fuji GFX.

As they say horses for courses.
 

Stuart Richardson

Active member
Personally I would never buy a Leica and choose Sony. And I would rather lose 25% of 10 than than 25% of 30. Been there done that with several bodies and lenses.

I can't wait to have fun with the Fuji GFX.

As they say horses for courses.

I use the A7RII and A7S for video, and do not really enjoy them at all, but given that I do a lot of video at night, there are no alternatives. I would much prefer to use something that was more enjoyable to use, even if the depreciation or failure rate was higher. I would rather be frustrated when they failed than be frustrated the whole time (as I am with the Sony). If the SL could match the A7S series for video quality in low light, I would be on it in a heartbeat.
 

sjg284

Member
I know the feeling.

Sony and Panasonic cameras I have used both have the same problem:
The UI is such a mess, the first thing I have to do is not assign custom function buttons.. but actually disable buttons/features.
Far too easy to accidentally trigger things.

Sony I had to disable most of the assignable buttons on the back as they were too easily triggered when the camera was hanging on strap against my torso.
Next thing I know the ISO has changed and I'm on tungsten WB.

Panasonic I had to in and disable most of the features of the touch screen. It was too sensitive to accidental touch.
Touchpad to move AF point is awesome. Finding the AF point perpetually pinned to top right or bottom right as my finger glances the screen as I bring camera to face - bad.
And the rest area for the right thumb is flanked by touch screen, and several buttons.. leaving me about 5mm of play to any side before I cause more accidental havoc.
Shot an afternoon on vacation in "4K photo mode" aka, 8MP photos because of this. Similarly shot an afternoon in JPG instead of RAW for similar reasons.

I find the M/SL/Q delightful to use by comparison.
 

PeterA

Well-known member
If 'how much' is the question - then the answer is simple.

However - a camera and its lenses are tools and how something works for you in your hand and with your eyes is to me the most important question - after which I look at price.

If a person already has tools he or she is happy with in hand and eye - then changing is much easier - because the new tool has to feel better and work better than previous.

If the only thing one considers is price - then the problem is one never gets a base line test of goodness of fit regarding the tool - all one has to refer to is price.

I am not one who is comfortable with the notion of changing my physical and psychological preferences - because of price, I'd rather keep what I have, than be dictaed to by something built to a price.


I think that price divided by time and quality and enjoyemnt and results isa different equation to price over megapixels.

Everyone's shooting preferences are unique to themselves - or they don';t knwo what they are doing and it matters not what they use anyway.


So after that long winded intro - here is my response to OP

If you are happy with Sony - then the last thing you should consider is switching to Leica because of the presence of two card slots - I wouldn't.
 

jdphoto

Well-known member
If 'how much' is the question - then the answer is simple.

However - a camera and its lenses are tools and how something works for you in your hand and with your eyes is to me the most important question - after which I look at price.

If a person already has tools he or she is happy with in hand and eye - then changing is much easier - because the new tool has to feel better and work better than previous.

If the only thing one considers is price - then the problem is one never gets a base line test of goodness of fit regarding the tool - all one has to refer to is price.

I am not one who is comfortable with the notion of changing my physical and psychological preferences - because of price, I'd rather keep what I have, than be dictaed to by something built to a price.


I think that price divided by time and quality and enjoyemnt and results isa different equation to price over megapixels.

Everyone's shooting preferences are unique to themselves - or they don';t knwo what they are doing and it matters not what they use anyway.


So after that long winded intro - here is my response to OP

If you are happy with Sony - then the last thing you should consider is switching to Leica because of the presence of two card slots - I wouldn't.
You're probably right, but it's also the way the Leica SL ergonomics fit my style. As I mentioned before, the fundamentals of having the right tool in your hand can make a difference in the inspiration that it brings. This is really personal and not always practical, but it's something that I get with certain cameras ( mostly film) and that ultimately helps me towards my goal. I'm going to rent it first obviously, and put it through its paces. thanks to all for great input.
 

sjg284

Member
I've gotten in the habit recently of playing with gear on rental.. especially stuff I know is 50/50, or that I just need to get out of my system.
It is especially good if you are in no rush and can catch a sale/promotion.
During Jewish Holidays in October, I had a nice 10 days for price of 3 type deal with Adorama.. (local NYC).
And over New Years, lensrentals.com had a similar special..

Results for me were
3 axis stabilizer gimbal - fun (actually not that fun), but no
Noctilux - fun, but no
SL - fun, probably yes..
 

doug

Well-known member
... it's also the way the Leica SL ergonomics fit my style...
If you ever wear winter gloves while handling a camera the advantages of the SL's ergonomics will be apparent within a few seconds.

I have a loaner SL + 90-280 APO for a few weeks, my impressions (vs. the a7II) originally posted elsewhere follow:

Yesterday was my first full day with the SL and 90-280mm zoom. The SL is unchanged since I first tried it a year ago, what's new (for me) is the lens. Given the storms and family obligations for the next several days it will probably be another week or more before I can use the camera more.

Recapping my initial thoughts about the SL: the solid construction, responsiveness, file richness, the simple, configurable, no-nonsense control layout, and viewfinder (with one exception) continue to delight me.

I'm still annoyed by the inability to make the viewfinder's exposure preview mode permanent; it's enabled by a half-press of the shutter switch or can be configured to be activated by the fn button (where the DOF preview button is on Leicaflexes). The viewfinder reverts to automatic brightness after each exposure. If the subject and background are similar tones, no big deal. OTOH if there's much difference between the subject and background tones it can be very distracting particularly when using spot metering and the subject is dancing around the field of view, as avian subjects often do.

The 90-280 is spectacular, nearly as good as the 280/4 APO. I haven't seen any color fringes either spherochromatic (color fringes in OOF high-contrast objects) or laterally. This lens would do well with a higher-resolution sensor. Much higher. Which brings up a problem: aliasing and moire.

Feather detail, a very sharp lens and a sensor without AA filter can be a difficult combination to work with. Moire-reducing software and occasional cloning out scrambled pixels become necessary for the best quality files. This is less a problem with the Sony a7II which has a similar-sized sensor and an AA filter. I still see some color aliasing when using the 280/4 APO on the Sony but not nearly as much as the 90-280 on the SL. Combine the Sony with the Canon FD 500mm f/4.5 L and color aliasing is never a problem, in part because the lens has some lateral chromatic aberration, correctable with software.

My test subjects were familiar birds in my yard, lured within range of a 280mm lens with seed, water and fruit. This was my first opportunity to try the SL's AF in the field. I found that the most reliable use of this feature was single-point manual focus, which means that a touch of the joystick focusses the lens at the focussing point. The SL's AF is quick and quiet and assuming it locks onto the right target its accuracy leaves nothing to be desired. No micro-adjustment ever required.

As I expected, the AF system focuses on the nearest point within its AF area meaning the bird's shoulder or wing and not necessarily its eye. Manual fine-focus is possible by pressing the lower-left key on the camera's back, with brings up 3x or 5x magnification in the viewfinder in two steps. I find that 3x is an excellent compromise that allows critical focus over a significant area of the image. I wish the Sony offered this option instead of jumping directly to 5x. I also wish the SL would offer the 3x option with the joystick button when using non-electronic lenses.

When using a native lens the lower-left key is the only option for bringing up viewfinder magnification, so I have to take my left hand away from the focussing ring, move it to the camera's back to press the key, then back to the focussing ring. Not the most effective technique. Maybe I can train my nose to press the key. The 90-280 is a focus-by-wire lens; the zoom is mechanical. Both rings rotate smoothly and the resistance of the two rings is identical. When using manual focus the focusing ring is sensitive to the rate of turning the ring: quick rotation = large changes, slow rotation = small changes. Very nice.

The lens's optical stabilization works well, probably better than the Sony's sensor stabilization, but subject motion is the limiting factor more often than the stabilization technology. In practical use the Sony's stabilization would have done just as well.

Enough words, show some pictures!















 

jaree

Member
Doug, These shots are spectacular as always. It is not the lens or the camera it is YOU. I bet you can take better bird photos than most people with a Sony RX10iii or an iPhone.
 

algrove

Well-known member
OP rent an SL before you buy. And then carry it all day at a wedding. Then consider that the 42 versus 24MP might make a difference not to mention a change in your workflow. I know of very few wedding photographers using Leica as the cost is difficult to justify assuming they do not earn a living from other photography. Don't just ask the Leica guys, perhaps ask the same question on the Canon area or on the Fuji or Nikon areas. Many differnt responses will help unless you just want an SL no matter the pros and cons. But then why ask us.
 

Bernard

Member
I know of very few wedding photographers using Leica as the cost is difficult to justify assuming they do not earn a living from other photography.
One local wedding photographer uses the SL. He loves it so far (it's only been half a season), and his work is outstanding.
The cost is what it is. Not all that different from a 1DX. He is using M lenses, so the size/weight is manageable.
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
One local wedding photographer uses the SL. He loves it so far (it's only been half a season), and his work is outstanding.
The cost is what it is. Not all that different from a 1DX. He is using M lenses, so the size/weight is manageable.
When I had Canon gear, an age and a day ago, I bought the highly regarded EF 24-70mm f/2.8L lens for it. Everyone working with Canon gear told me it was a superb performer. I took their word for how good a lens it was and ordered it.

It weighed almost two pounds and with the lens hood it was literally huge. Ergonomically, it gave me a headache because it was at its widest focal length when the optical assembly was at the greatest extension, which threw the balance off (even with a big heavy DSLR body) and was counter to my expectations. It did perform well but I simply couldn't work with it.

I mentioned this to one of my friends who had just expanded his business to do wedding work. "Oh my, it may be wrong for you, but that would be perfect for what I'm doing now!" I sold the lens to him and bought a 28/1.8, 50/1.4, and 100/2. Several months later, my friend and I met again for lunch.

"So, how's that bazooka working out for you?" I asked.
"I'm so glad I bought it from you, thanks! It's exactly what I was needed and you gave me a better price!"
"Really? You don't find it too heavy and weirdly balanced?"
"Well, no. Once I fit the Stroboframe, flash unit, and battery grip to the camera ... all of which I need for these wedding gigs ... the whole rig balances perfectly. It weighs a ton, yes, but ... I'm working, I work out so I can keep doing the job."

The SL24-90 is similar in size and weight, and doesn't have that weird backwards zoom action. I don't know that I'd want to have to hold it up on all day assignments now, but I'm old, retired, and don't need to anymore. :angel:

G
 

algrove

Well-known member
One local wedding photographer uses the SL. He loves it so far (it's only been half a season), and his work is outstanding.
The cost is what it is. Not all that different from a 1DX. He is using M lenses, so the size/weight is manageable.
OK, now I get you are Leica fanboy with rose colored glasses.
 

Bernard

Member
OK, now I get you are Leica fanboy with rose colored glasses.
I guess if answering the question "does anybody use the SL for weddings?" makes me a fanboy, then I am guilty.

Next time I see my friend who uses an SL for weddings, I will relay the information that some guy from the internet thinks he is doing it wrong. I'm sure he will be impressed!
 
I guess if answering the question "does anybody use the SL for weddings?" makes me a fanboy, then I am guilty.

Next time I see my friend who uses an SL for weddings, I will relay the information that some guy from the internet thinks he is doing it wrong. I'm sure he will be impressed!
People shoot weddings with anything and everything. People shoot them with Canon Rebels and Phase One backs. The difference is whether you can evaluate what the camera is bringing to the table, it's return on investment, and value proposition.
 

D&A

Well-known member
Doug, regardless of the nature and discussion of a thread, your pictures that accompany your written words and thoughts, speak volumes. All combined, it brings back into the perspective the points that are actively being discussed. Lovely images. :thumbup:

Dave (D&A)
 

doug

Well-known member
Now I'll try to explain why I'll send the SL and 90-280 back to Tony Rose at the end of the month. I had intended to ask him what it would take to keep it but I ran face-first into that #@!? stoopid automatic viewfinder brightness "feature" again. (and I wish that the stoopid automatic spelling corrector function would learn that I really do mean STOOPID).

Over the years I've found that spot metering in manual mode works best for me. My primary exposure concern is the subject, generally a critter of some kind. The background might be light, or dark, or somewhere in-between. The critter moves often from a spot with a bright background to one with a dark background and back again in a couple of seconds. Let the background fall where it may, the light on the animal doesn't change nearly as often as the background does. I want to set the exposure and make it stick, thus manual spot metering. I also like to keep detail in white plumage or fur; the live histogram in exposure preview mode is a huge benefit of an electronic viewfinder. Exposure preview mode also tells me without taking my eye off the critter if my exposure setting is grossly wrong. Automatic viewfinder brightness doesn't do that and the live histogram in automatic brightness mode shows the viewfinder's histogram, not the photo's histogram. Completely useless.

Today I spotted a coyote across the field behind my house. A few weeds between myself and the coyote were confusing the camera's AF (they're invisible when the coyote is in focus) so I wanted to use the magnified viewfinder and manual focus. This is not an uncommon scenario. The automatic viewfinder brightness was going wild as the coyote moved from dark tree backgrounds to bright dry weeds backgrounds so I touched the fn button which I'd set up to enable exposure preview mode.

Oops! Enabling exposure preview mode kicks the viewfinder back to normal magnification. So the sequence for every single exposure was

1) move left hand from focussing ring to camera back
2) press lower-left key on the back twice for maximum magnification
3) press fn button so I can see the coyote (do NOT do this before magnifying viewfinder!)
4) move left hand back to focussing ring
5) focus
6) press shutter release.

Every single damned exposure.

I so wanted to like this camera. 99.9% of what it does is so much better than the Sony, but this is a deal killer.

The Sony isn't nearly as quiet or responsive as the SL unless I enable the electronic first curtain, which limits the fastest practical shutter speed to about 1/1000 sec - but I prefer subdued light so this isn't something I run into often.

The Sony is terrible while wearing winter gloves for anything other than switching it on or off, but here in California's central valley the need for winter gloves is occasional at most.

The optical stabilization of the Leica 90-280 is a reasonable substitute for the Sony's sensor stabilization, at least in its focal length range. I'd planned to keep the Sony to use the 500mm lens.

The Sony's noise at higher ISO is ugly (my opinion, yours might differ) while the SL's noise is much more pleasing, but I rarely use any ISO above 400.

I'd much rather use ACR with the SL's files than C1 with the Sony's files. The Sony's files look much better when processed with C1, almost as good as the SL's files but the C1 interface and file handling is clunky. But it does make the Sony files look pretty good.

Bottom line for me is that the Sony's functional deficiencies are many but I encounter them infrequently, the SL has only one functional deficiency and it smacks me in the face nearly every time I look through the viewfinder. Damn. Add to this my recent experience with Leica service and I am highly disinclined to buy this camera.
 

jdphoto

Well-known member
Now I'll try to explain why I'll send the SL and 90-280 back to Tony Rose at the end of the month. I had intended to ask him what it would take to keep it but I ran face-first into that #@!? stoopid automatic viewfinder brightness "feature" again. (and I wish that the stoopid automatic spelling corrector function would learn that I really do mean STOOPID).

Over the years I've found that spot metering in manual mode works best for me. My primary exposure concern is the subject, generally a critter of some kind. The background might be light, or dark, or somewhere in-between. The critter moves often from a spot with a bright background to one with a dark background and back again in a couple of seconds. Let the background fall where it may, the light on the animal doesn't change nearly as often as the background does. I want to set the exposure and make it stick, thus manual spot metering. I also like to keep detail in white plumage or fur; the live histogram in exposure preview mode is a huge benefit of an electronic viewfinder. Exposure preview mode also tells me without taking my eye off the critter if my exposure setting is grossly wrong. Automatic viewfinder brightness doesn't do that and the live histogram in automatic brightness mode shows the viewfinder's histogram, not the photo's histogram. Completely useless.

Today I spotted a coyote across the field behind my house. A few weeds between myself and the coyote were confusing the camera's AF (they're invisible when the coyote is in focus) so I wanted to use the magnified viewfinder and manual focus. This is not an uncommon scenario. The automatic viewfinder brightness was going wild as the coyote moved from dark tree backgrounds to bright dry weeds backgrounds so I touched the fn button which I'd set up to enable exposure preview mode.

Oops! Enabling exposure preview mode kicks the viewfinder back to normal magnification. So the sequence for every single exposure was

1) move left hand from focussing ring to camera back
2) press lower-left key on the back twice for maximum magnification
3) press fn button so I can see the coyote (do NOT do this before magnifying viewfinder!)
4) move left hand back to focussing ring
5) focus
6) press shutter release.

Every single damned exposure.

I so wanted to like this camera. 99.9% of what it does is so much better than the Sony, but this is a deal killer.

The Sony isn't nearly as quiet or responsive as the SL unless I enable the electronic first curtain, which limits the fastest practical shutter speed to about 1/1000 sec - but I prefer subdued light so this isn't something I run into often.

The Sony is terrible while wearing winter gloves for anything other than switching it on or off, but here in California's central valley the need for winter gloves is occasional at most.

The optical stabilization of the Leica 90-280 is a reasonable substitute for the Sony's sensor stabilization, at least in its focal length range. I'd planned to keep the Sony to use the 500mm lens.

The Sony's noise at higher ISO is ugly (my opinion, yours might differ) while the SL's noise is much more pleasing, but I rarely use any ISO above 400.

I'd much rather use ACR with the SL's files than C1 with the Sony's files. The Sony's files look much better when processed with C1, almost as good as the SL's files but the C1 interface and file handling is clunky. But it does make the Sony files look pretty good.

Bottom line for me is that the Sony's functional deficiencies are many but I encounter them infrequently, the SL has only one functional deficiency and it smacks me in the face nearly every time I look through the viewfinder. Damn. Add to this my recent experience with Leica service and I am highly disinclined to buy this camera.
Doug, Thanks for the input and observations. That sucks that you have to go through that whole process just to click an image. Perhaps a fix will be in a new firmware upgrade. I am currently shooting with the a7r2 and it has silent shutter, I mean completely silent. I live along the Atlantic flyway migration route and we get some pretty cool visitors. We had a Northern Harrier skimming just feet above the meadows for days! Some Northern flickers, Woodcock, Bobolinks and even a Bald Eagle. The Eagle was scanning my chicken flock or my fuzzy slippers, but either way I realized, i need a zoom! Thanks for posting some great pics!.
 

doug

Well-known member
Doug, Thanks for the input and observations. That sucks that you have to go through that whole process just to click an image. Perhaps a fix will be in a new firmware upgrade. I am currently shooting with the a7r2 and it has silent shutter, I mean completely silent. I live along the Atlantic flyway migration route and we get some pretty cool visitors. We had a Northern Harrier skimming just feet above the meadows for days! Some Northern flickers, Woodcock, Bobolinks and even a Bald Eagle. The Eagle was scanning my chicken flock or my fuzzy slippers, but either way I realized, i need a zoom! Thanks for posting some great pics!.
I first complained about this over a year ago and so far no firmware update has included a fix for this.
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
I first complained about this over a year ago and so far no firmware update has included a fix for this.
With no bias one way or the other intended, that might mean your preferred way of operating the camera is a minority viewpoint. That said, I don't quite understand how you want the camera to operate.

The 'full time exposure preview' that you're looking for seems to be the default behavior (if you have the menu option enabled) in A mode on my camera, that is, the viewfinder brightens and darkens in response to the setting of EV compensation and what the meter is reading, the half-press on the shutter release or the exposure simulation mode reveals little if any change from the EVF display and the output files look like what I saw in the viewfinder.

The viewfinder brightness swings around a lot with spot metering enabled because the metered exposure varies a lot ... I don't know how to stop that from happening if I'm in spot mode with any camera and Exposure Preview is enabled. I recall my Sony did the same thing, and my Olympus does the same thing. ??

In M mode with a fixed ISO, EC is disabled and the EC control adjusts viewfinder brightness without affecting exposure.

When I engage exposure simulation mode, in either M or A modes, I can zoom in or out with the either the BL button (or with the toggle button, presuming manual lenses) without exiting simulation mode. Perhaps this is a change with firmware v2.2 on my camera and the camera you were using was a previous fw revision? I don't recall how it worked before I installed fw 2.2. It does reset to normal display after the exposure, but tapping the FN button twice with my right index finger doesn't seem to be that difficult or time consuming.

I'm just not sure from your description how you would prefer the camera to operate.

G
 
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