Leica news posted on LUF....

[LJL]

Did not know where to place this, as it hits several sections. There is some recently posted news (a summary from a discussion with Stefan Daniel at their Hessenpark member meeting) posted on the Leica Camera forum. Folks interested probably have received a notice or at least know the link.

Bottom line points:
S2 is on schedule; in pilot production phase now; expected to compete with high end cameras from Hasselblad and Phase (performance on par with 50MP backs); body will be under 20,000 euros; no mention of lens prices or packages

M-line may have an M9 at some point. Not sure when. M8 and M8.2 will not receive any additional updates. The Summarit line of lenses will be expanded. Some new viewfinders in the works for wider angles.

R-line is discontinued. There are NO plans for an R10 or any DSLR. However, there will be some solution to use R lenses digitally. Not sure if that means some new body with electronic viewfinder and stuff, but no full DSLR is planned. R lenses will NOT be compatible with S2.

Micro Four Thirds (MFT) is interesting, but Leica has no plans to field one. It may sell lenses to be used on MFT.

There is some other information about no new lenses for the Leica projector, and that Panasonic arrangement will continue.

Sorry for the brevity, but folks can go look for the added information if they are interested.

LJ

 

[johnastovall]

Summary of Q&A Session with Stefan Daniel during Hessenpark Meeting

 

[Oxide Blu]

... body will be under 20,000 euros; no mention of lens prices or packages
.

I can confirm this. I have deposits down on two bodied, 19,999€ each. :thumbs:

 

[Guy Mancuso]

This is from Andreas which is the owner of LUF and his notes from Stefan Daniel in a Q&A . More discussion on the LUF if interested but thought I would get it all in right here as well. Here is the link to the the thread by Andreas for more discussion on Leica http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica...source=Newsletter2009-11-EN&utm_medium=E-Mail

Hi,

here's finally the official translation of the summary of the Q&A session with Stefan Daniel during the Hessenpark member meeting.

I transcibed it from the video I made that evening and translated it with my limited English skills (What the heck is "verkitten" or "Kittglieder" in English?)




Strategy In General

Panasonic Cooperation
The Panasonic cooperation will continue
More compact cameras to come
Leica and Micro FourThirds
Leica is not going to offer MFT cameras
Leica may offer MFT lenses
MFT is and interesting system
Sensor size is a very limiting factor
Leica And The Forum
Leica is not going to run an own forum on their website
Collaboration is seen as running well and constructive
Positive example is the first L-Camera TV show from the Leica production
Many Leica employees are reading in this forum regularly, so that important contributions in the forum are reported immeditiately to the management
The forum provides many contributions to the product development
Stefan Daniel agrees to answer forum questions more often in the future
Leica As Lens Supplier for Other Camera Systems
Patents needed are only swapped inside of the Japanes camera industry
Zeiss lenses are manufactured by Cosina who are seen as Japanese company
That way Zeiss receives the patents, Leica as German company does not
Leica's attempts to come to an agreement failed until now
Reverse engineering is legally too risky
Extending The Product Range
No Leica scanners are planned
The LCD projector range is continued but won't have interchangeable lenses
Maybe the customer service will offer to implement different lenses

R-System

R10 and Alternatives
There will be no digital SLR aka R10
But there will be - and we are working on this - a suitable solution how to use R lenses digitally
It's very important to us, that owners of R lenses can take pictures digitally in the near future
This solution will have nothing to do to with the S2
Leica has examined intensively which features and what price tag a R10 had to have
Price would have been 6000 - 7000 Euro and it would have been far behind the competitors
This would have been a solution for the existing customer base but not for new customers
Therefore the R system is discontinued, the existing system runs out
There is no due date for the new solution
Indirect notes by Stefan Daniel to 35 mm full format
Definitely it's not going to be a SLR
DMR
The reasons for stopping the DMR were
Cooperation with Imacon now Hasselblad ended very abruptly
Sales figures were low (approx. 10% of M8/M8.2)
The DMR firmware will have no updates.


M-System

M9
A LEICA M9 will come
Developing full format is technically very demanding because of the M lenses
We are one step further but still not there where we can announce the camera
M8 Upgrades
No more upgrades are planned
Dealers don't like upgrades as no additional sales are generated
The M8 upgrade constrained Leica M8.2 sales
Used cameras are entry level cameras thus attracting new customers to Leica
This would drop by future upgrade offers
Sensor Supplier
Kodak is prepared to Leica's needs, for example the special size of the S2 sensor
Other manufacturers like Sony only offer a fixed range of sensors
Summarits / Entry Level Lenses
Summarits are true Leica lenses
The LEICA ELMAR-M f/3,8 24 mm was already an extension of this line
More affordable Leica lenses are to come - perhaps not named Summarit (reserved for 2.5 lenses)
Summilux 50mm sales are 100% above of Summarit sales
Super Wide Lenses
Asked for super wide lenses:
Leica already has an 16mm - Leica can only offer shorter lenses
This is a topic we could work on...
18mm Finder Availability
18mm finder to come in June
The frame precision wasn't sufficient yet therefore a rework was necessary
NOCTILUX Availability
NOCTILUX wa announced for February
Production turned out to be more complex than assumed
NOCTILUX consists of 8 elements in 5 groups
These groups are first cemented (?), then coated
This process had problems which are solved now
End of June, beginning of July larger quantities will reach the market

S-System
Pilot lot is in production by now
Everything is on schedule
Price will be on the same level as the top cameras in the digital professional segment - like high end solutions by Hasselblad and Phase One
Body will be below 20,000 Euros
Because of the Leica lens quality and the lacking low-pass filter LEICA S2 can compete with 50MP cameras of the competitors
Target group of the S2 are professional photographers (studio, fashion, automobile)
Total market are about 10,000 cameras per year
Leica is going for a at least two digit market share


German original is here:
http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-...enfassung.html

__________________
Andreas Jürgensen
Admin & Editor

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Actually I will move this over to the Leica section folks , makes more sense there

 

[LJL]

Thanks, and whatever works best, Guy. I did not want to copy and paste the stuff directly from Andreas here, nor the link that was actually supplied which John posted, since I was not sure of how Andreas or the mods would feel about that. All settled now. The info does cover several sections of the forum (Leica M & R, 4/3ds, MF systems, etc.), and that is why I posted in the Sunset Bar section. All is good now that you have moved things where you think they will best be viewed by others.

LJ

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Everything is fine with Andreas already sent him a note and all is good. Actually he mentioned a video as well , here is the link
http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica...source=Newsletter2009-11-EN&utm_medium=E-Mail

Nice to watch as i was there in Wetzler a couple summers ago. Great little town in Germany

 

[jlm]

for those in NY drooling for the S2:
http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica...5-leica-demonstrate-s2-fotocare-nyc-july.html

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I can confirm this. I have deposits down on two bodied, 19,999€ each. :thumbs:

Thought that number was around 15000 euros. Hope they really watch the pricing on the S2. Pricing on MF stuff has really dropped.

 

[dfarkas]

I can confirm this. I have deposits down on two bodied, 19,999€ each. :thumbs:

Pricing on the S2 hasn't been provided to dealers yet. That is still a few weeks away from what I am hearing. Curious how your dealer came up with that price.

David

 

[stephengilbert]

I thought the 19,999 figure was a joke, like the pricing of gasoline with 9/10 of a cent at the end. You know, "If Leica says 'under 20,000,' it means 19,999.99."

 

[jlm]

1 Euro = 1.4105 U.S. dollars makes the body $28k

 

[dfarkas]

I thought the 19,999 figure was a joke, like the pricing of gasoline with 9/10 of a cent at the end. You know, "If Leica says 'under 20,000,' it means 19,999.99."

Stephen,

You're probably right. I think my humor-meter is out-of-whack today.

Too little sleep will do funny things to you.

David

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Now for the bad news. No C1 for the S2


http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=864286

 

[LJL]

Now for the bad news. No C1 for the S2


http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=864286

Anybody think competition is not alive and fierce? Well, at least Leica is sticking to the DNG format that can be used with Aperture nicely and if needed, LR and ACR and probably others, including Phase. From the Leica marketing pitch, they talk about not really needing an external correction algorithm for the RAW files, as between the system optics and internal processing, there will not be a need for some of the more significant corrections in things like Phocus (Hassy) or C1 Pro (for Phase's stuff).

The flip side seems to indicate that Phase is not going to get any access to what could be really great optics from Leica. So not sure who comes away with less here.....seems like Leica has autonomy and flexibility if needed.

LJ

 

[beamon]

Now for the bad news. No C1 for the S2


http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=864286

Not surprising, I guess, in light of the fact that Leica will be competing with Phase One in a fairly big way, format wise, at the least.

Wonder what Leica will do for their S2 customers re: a converter for the S2 raw images? No doubt ACR/LR will have something fairly rapidly but will they be ready at the S2's launch?

So many questions.

 

[etrigan63]

That entirely depends on how well Leica can convince Adobe that a strategic partnership would be beneficial. Bundling Lightroom 2 with the S2 sounds like it would be a good fit. The same could be done for the M9.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

For some folks that like C1 this is really bad news. ME and my interest just went away. Sorry new camera , new software leica may develop is just bugs crawling all over the place. Can't take that risk. it remains to be seen but this will turn a lot of folks off.

 

[robmac]

So much for the Phase 1 'alliance" (it WAS comic-relief from day 1).

Given the low volume of S2 sales vs Hassy/Phase, getting Adobe or Apple to put the S2 anywhere above the bottom of the 'to do' list will take some $$ (volume buy) from Leica. What's the incentive to pull a new-entry ultra low-volume, ultra-spendy prestige camera above all the other bodies that will sell FAR, FAR more LR/CS/Aperture shrink-wrap?

Home-grown Leica SW? I think Guy said it all.

----
"Body will be below 20,000 Euros"
"Because of the Leica lens quality and the lacking low-pass filter (me: huh, don't they all lack one?) LEICA S2 can compete with 50MP cameras of the competitors"
---

Translation - Leica will price body-only at just under 20K Euros, arguing that optics make the S2 on par with ~50MP from Hassy/Phase. I can see this quoted verbatim in the appropriate issue of LFI.

I can see the day of the price release now:
-----------
- Leica "no matter what" faithful will be burning their keyboards grasping to justify the price in any way possible. It will quickly get comical.

- People who hoped Leica wouldn't be, well, like Leica on pricing 'cause they wanted one (and even Leica has to wake up and smell the reality coffee once and awhile*), will curse as they call their Hassy/Phase dealers for a quote.

- The rest (happy with their current gear) will simply shake their heads muttering "what drugs are they on?"

Hope I'm wrong, but this sucker is looking increasingly more DOA with every passing week. Oh well, regardless, the next months will make for entertaining forum-fodder.

* In all fairness, Leica planned the S2 well before the MF market undertook it's metamorphosis and will likely be seriously hurt if they try and sell the unit at current fair market values (all BS about 3x MP= 50MP aside). That said, such is life in business - a lot of great ideas/products have died on the vine because of bad timing/foot dragging. The S2 was a great idea - had it been released in volume in the bad old days of the MF market. Now....

 

[LJL]

Well, I am still wondering why folks keep overlooking the concept that the S2 with is exclusive Maestro dual processors (whatever that means and is worth), that will be spitting out DNG files that should be able to be handled by any of the various processor apps out there. Finely tweaked profiles and such may not be immediately there, but since it is a DNG "open" format, all of the info should be there, and I would bet that anything that may have been "hidden" in the file for proprietary use will be opened up and be able to be incorporated into most RAW processing apps and engines.

So, if you wanted to use C1, you should still be able to do that if it handles the DNG format. Same is true for LR, ACR, Aperture, RAW Developer and all the rest. Not sure what folks are thinking needs happen beyond that. If the app makers want to offer special profiles or something, does not seem like they should have too much trouble getting the info from the DNG file, so custom corrections and such should be pretty readily possible.

As for all of the other derision over timing, price, competition, etc......it is what it is, and folks will either accept and embrace the new entrant or not. For me personally, I think they have (not had) a great concept and offering with the S2. I think the price point remains to indicate if they get that part on the mark or not. A 19,999.99 euro body does not float my boat, especially considering that the lenses will probably have some hefty premiums also. The "under 20,000 euro" comment needs to be clarified with an actual MAP/MSRP, which we will probably get shortly. Until then, the emotional arguments are wasted energy.....wait for the facts and actuals.

LJ