New statement by Leica on the M8

[johnastovall]

As Alice cried, “Curiouser and curiouser!”

New statement by Leica on the M8

"'Already, in the working hours since the departure of Steven Lee, the Leica product development team has begun to review the M system strategy. It is too early to say what changes will be made. However, it is likely that the path may differ from the one set by Steven Lee. In any case, the M8 will continue to be our flagship camera into 2009. We can confirm that comments made during PMA regarding the possibility of an M8 upgrade to full frame were premature and we apologise if one of them gave a too optimistic outlook.

It is true that it is the desire of Leica to consider full frame within the M system. However, the final decision regarding the appropriate camera body configuration has yet to be made.'

 

[LJL]

Actually, that does not seem too far from the original pre-PMA discussions many reported. It seems to support the idea that a FF sensor is being considered....whether that be for the M8 or a later version M9 is still not being told, and also that it may be fit into the possible R10.

This communication does suggest that the perpetual upgrade program for the M8 may be "soft pedaled" a bit, and that there may not be a true "roadmap" discussed with the public. So it is looking like Leica is working to "stabilize" speculation, keeping to its original statements about the M8 holding into 2009, and that options are being considered going forward. It does also say that Mr. Lee's statements at PMA, which some feel were either "out of school", premature, or possibly mis-stated by a pressured questioning and interpretation, are an issue they are trying to get in front of at this point. It does smack of some strategy shift or retraction, but without more clarification, my thought here are more opinion than anything else.

Thanks for digging this out and posting. Nice to see that Leica is doing something other than hiding at this point.

LJ

 

[Maggie O]

I'd bet Leica saw a potential cash flow crisis coming after the second quarter as M8 sales drop off in anticipation of a FF camera and realizing that there would not be enough upgrades sold to cover the slowdown in camera sales.

 

[johnastovall]

I'd bet Leica saw a potential cash flow crisis coming after the second quarter as M8 sales drop off in anticipation of a FF camera and realizing that there would not be enough upgrades sold to cover the slowdown in camera sales.

I just wish they would sell me just a shutter upgrade. Don't need the saphire LCD with my Lugi case but I would like a quicter shutter.

 

[johnastovall]

I also hope they do the body revaluation with some RD-1s, Konica Hexars and and Autofocus Contax G's on the table for some inspiration from outside the Leica box.

Send the designers out to shot for a couple of days with them.

 

[LJL]

I just wish they would sell me just a shutter upgrade. Don't need the saphire LCD with my Lugi case but I would like a quicter shutter.

I was hoping for the same kind of "revision" to the upgrade plan. Offer the new shutter, CLA and extended warranty at an appropriately reduced cost. My bet is that they could make up a lot of volume upgrades if the price/offering was more reasonable. The problem for Leica is still going to be high QA and service turnaround on any of that work also. That is an area they really need to be addressing with both the general public, as well as all current clients. Their reputation is really taking a beating in that area, and not encouraging folks to jump into more gear, only to find that it has to go back for calibration, or whatever, and it will not be seen for many weeks. Not a nice thing.

LJ

 

[johnastovall]

I was hoping for the same kind of "revision" to the upgrade plan. Offer the new shutter, CLA and extended warranty at an appropriately reduced cost. My bet is that they could make up a lot of volume upgrades if the price/offering was more reasonable. The problem for Leica is still going to be high QA and service turnaround on any of that work also. That is an area they really need to be addressing with both the general public, as well as all current clients. Their reputation is really taking a beating in that area, and not encouraging folks to jump into more gear, only to find that it has to go back for calibration, or whatever, and it will not be seen for many weeks. Not a nice thing.

LJ

The whole QA issue goes back to a thread I had in another forum about why Leica has never set up a Total Quality Management Program for just such issues and started down the path of an ISO9000 certification or at least Sigma Six.

Maybe we should all send Leica management copies of Demings "[SIZE=-1]The Fourteen Points of Management" :lecture:[/SIZE]

 

[Bob]

Osborne computer failed due to premature disclosure.
announcements AST serious business.
-bob

 

[sirvine]

Let's play armchair interim CEO!

New upgrade package: (a) frame-line correction, (b) manual shutter winder or quieter automatic shutter, and/or (c) automatic sensor dust shaker.

R10 should have full frame chip, acceptable high-ISO, and full backward compatibility.

No other new products. All available funds go into developing first-in-class customer service and a steady stream of upgrade and firmware releases.

 

[woodyspedden]

Let's play armchair interim CEO!

New upgrade package: (a) frame-line correction, (b) manual shutter winder or quieter automatic shutter, and/or (c) automatic sensor dust shaker.

R10 should have full frame chip, acceptable high-ISO, and full backward compatibility.

No other new products. All available funds go into developing first-in-class customer service and a steady stream of upgrade and firmware releases.

My biggest concern now is the future of R! When the announcement talks about only the M in the context of the flagship system, and basically preannounces either a delay or a no-op regarding a full frame M body I wonder where leica is going! If they don't have a new M to talk about at Photokina and no R announcement as well, there will be hell to pay in the marketplace. This would truly be the start of the beginning of the end for leica. JMHO

Woody

 

[apsheng]

This new statement, IMHO, just shows Leica has no business strategy or product plan. It appears that Lee tried to force a high margin FF and upgrade/service strategy and schedule down the throat of the engineers. The engineers revolted and won. Guess American business model and German culture just don't mix. The M9 and R10 will come when the engineers are good and ready (which may not be a bad thing) at their leisurely pace (which is a bad thing), but hopefully before they run out of money...

Alan

 

[PeterA]

Wether Leica wants to hear this or not I no longer care - if they dont come out with an R10 announcement this year - I am gonski from the brand. Life is too short to fret about companies who want to meander along as if there is no competition. fact of the matter is that there IS a LOT of competition for Leica.

I am selling my M8 and M lenses the removal of the full frame M from the agenda is about them worrying about being left holding obsolete product ( M8's). The upgrade announcement scared me - the step back from that has scared me more. The whole company strategy has been too reliant on worrying about inventory on hand management - rather than getting the right inventory in. The service stories I am consistently hearing about the M8 and lens focus issues are scary. i have known for a while I cant get critical focus with any of my M lenses on my M8 - and have been shooting F5.6+ in order to mask this stupid situation ..I have had enough already!

 

[Daniel]

Osborne computer failed due to premature disclosure.
announcements AST serious business.
-bob

Exactly!

 

[NonFiction]

[...] the removal of the full frame M from the agenda is about them worrying about being left holding obsolete product ( M8's). [...]

Or, it could be about them not having anything viable in the pipeline, and not wanting to leave expectations wide open, needlessly, until they're further along being able to release a full frame solution.

(I'm guessing it's a little of both, actually.)

 

[PeterA]

Or, it could be about them not having anything viable in the pipeline, and not wanting to leave expectations wide open, needlessly, until they're further along being able to release a full frame solution.

(I'm guessing it's a little of both, actually.)

I think you may be right ..

 

[Bob]

I really don't understand all the fuss about full frame futures except possibly in the improvement of high iso noise and maximum field of view.
With lenses like the CV 12 available, most FOV challenges I have come across have been met. I would be more interested in a new lens at the wide end of the spectrum from Leica or perhaps new sensor technology perhaps based on non-traditional bayer technology. If FF were to happen, no apparent sharpness benefit would be achieved unless the sensor pitch were reduced. That means a much larger file size and longer write times.
I bought my M8s at the time I did because of the files they produced and I thought that the price was fair considering all factors. My biggest beef is about execution, quality control, and service; not camera futures. A FF sensor I doubt will have any significant impact on prints 17 by 25 and under. If you shoot for digital media output, it will have no impact whatsoever.
Now, nice high iso low noise performance would be nice, but there are a few ways of getting there and not all of them involve a larger sensor, although admittedly that does help as long as the resolution is not increased.
CEOs should be restricted to only the vaguest of statements like "our engineers are working on cutting edge technologies in order to provide future products to meet our customers' needs. We are enhancing our manufacturing technologies and customer satisfaction delivery systems to provide the future responsiveness our customers deserve. Maintaining financial strength and high quality is the road to the future"
Now, that is what I would have expected from any reasonable CEO.
But now that the pot has been stirred, nothing but tincture of time will allow the turmoil to settle. They best say less than more until the point that they are able to deliver.
-bob

 

[Jack]

Seriously folks, how bad off are we really with the 1.3 sensor and lowly 11 megapixels of resolution? (I make pretty impressive 16x24 inch prints off the M8 11MP files, and have gone as large as 44x66 and the images still look very good!) How often will I ever need WIDER than my CV12 offers? It's an effective 16 on the M8 and frankly that's darn wide for most images. The M's sweet spot realm has ALWAYS been 28 through 50 with 21/24 and 75/90/135 on the "specialized" ends of the sweet spots. Back in the day, entire portfolios of phenomenal images were assembled by talented photographers with one or two lenses period; usually the 35 and 50, but sometimes a 28 or 90 tossed in the mix. And this range AND MORE is still very well represented with the current offerings...

The M is and always has been about making images, at least for serious photographers, and IMO that hasn't changed. Perhaps it has been about a jewelry-like accessory for the not-so-serious photographers -- those that want to look the part but don't take the time to actually learn it -- and thus the tech advances of excellent AF and Auto-metering are perhaps better suited to this latter group. And beginners. And for any subject matter that requires a long lens. But this does not take away what the M is best at, and at some point a photographer turns more artist and wants to be in total control of his/her image making environment and a more basic camera becomes a superior creative tool... IMO this is why view cameras and the Leica M (and even film) have endured so well during the digital revolution.

So let's quit our whining and get out there and use the tools we have. IF/WHEN something better comes along, GREAT! Until then, I'm "dancing with the one I brung."

/rant

PS EDIT: Bob posted immediately above while I was typing this and his response is obviously in synch with mine, sorry for the repetition.

Great minds Bob!

 

[Guy Mancuso]

I knew there was a reason you are my partner than just your good looks. :ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL:

I agree 110 percent and well said my friend even this guy agree's

 

[LJL]

I knew there was a reason you are my partner than just your good looks. :ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL:

I agree 110 percent and well said my friend even this guy agree's

But you did not shoot this with a FF digital Leica :cussing: (Just kidding, as you well know )

LJ

 

[Guy Mancuso]

LOL the only reason i want FF is more MPX and squeeze these lenses more than there being used today. I love my CV 12mm and all my wide angles so from that POF i am not hurting one bit in the wide area.